Black teen shot and killed in gated community

[Jeebus]

Indeed, I already agreed that profiling is not illegal.

The fact that Martin was profiled merely helps the prosecution's case ---

The "prosecution's case" is 2nd degree murder.

How does "profiling him" prove "evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life"? THAT is the legal standard to prove 2nd degree murder in FL.

Remember, FL law (776.041) allows any "initial aggressor" (if it can even be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was the initial aggressor) to regain their right of justifiable homicide/self defense after they withdraw from the initial contact.

GZ's statement (and there is nothing offered so far to refute it) is that he was walking back to his vehicle when he was attacked, therefore any actions he may have taken before that no longer matter - if he had a reasonable belief he was in peril of loss of life or great bodily harm, the homicide is justified, and he walks.

[Cameron]

Punching someone in the face and beating their head into the concrete repeatedly because you notice them following you can be dangerous to your health too, especially when they are armed with a gun

Which is only believable if Zimmerman can prove that it's his voice pleading for help on that tape.

That damning, damning tape.

[Byng]

True, but I don't think that it's a necessary element of this case.

I get it that Martin was profiled, but it's also true that, in Zimmerman's mind at least, Martin "fit" the profile of some burglars.

The prosecutor was smart to leave the race issue totally out of the charging documents.

If it had been an unarmed white kid laying dead on the ground, the cops would have made an arrest that night --- but the prosecutor is also kinda stuck with those cops.

She cannot criticize them too much because they are gonna be her witnesses.

But the FBI are still working on their investigation and probably will not release the results either way until the Defence team makes their move on Stand Your Ground, going to trial or as I believe most likely taking a plea-bargain. O'Mara will want assurances from the FBI that there will be no Federal Charges before agreeing to a Plea-Bargain with the State.

[8ball]

Which is only believable if Zimmerman can prove that it's his voice pleading for help on that tape.

That damning, damning tape.

How could the tape possibly be damning when there was an eye witness who saw Zimmerman on his back pleading for help?

[temptationwalk]

How could the tape possibly be damning when there was an eye witness who saw Zimmerman on his back pleading for help?

Yea, ok

[Byng]

How could the tape possibly be damning when there was an eye witness who saw Zimmerman on his back pleading for help?

Most likely because there are conflicting eye witness reports where as the FBI will more likely than not be able to identify who it was screaming for help on the tape beyond a reasonable doubt.

[8ball]

Well no, you're missing the point.

The point is that whether the kid was black, white or purple, he was being targeted for how he looked -- not for anything he did.

In Zimmerman's mind, right or wrong, Martin was suspicious because he "fit."

That's bs. He looked suspicious based on his actions. The description given to the dispatcher was based entirely on the way he was acting. Zimmerman even qualified why he thought he was on drugs ("it's raining and he's just walking around, looking about"). If he had been walking like a normal pedestrian on his way home this may have turned out different. No mention of physical attributes, skin color, clothing etc... until asked for them by the dispatcher.

Zimmerman had every reason and every right to report suspicious behavior.

[temptationwalk]

That's bs. He looked suspicious based on his actions. The description given to the dispatcher was based entirely on the way he was acting. Zimmerman even qualified why he thought he was on drugs ("it's raining and he's just walking around, looking about"). If he had been walking like a normal pedestrian on his way home this may have turned out different. No mention of physical attributes, skin color, clothing etc... until asked for them by the dispatcher.

Zimmerman had every reason and every right to report suspicious behavior.

BSbSZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzBS BS
Zimmerman is a liar

[Cameron]

The "prosecution's case" is 2nd degree murder.

How does "profiling him" prove "evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life"? THAT is the legal standard to prove 2nd degree murder in FL.

The profiling is just another fact --- there is not one, single fact, but a series of facts --- which help to prove Zimmerman's state of mind:

A "person of ordinary judgment" would know the act, or series of acts, "is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another";

The act is "done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent"; and

The act is "of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life."

Remember, FL law (776.041) allows any "initial aggressor" (if it can even be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was the initial aggressor) to regain their right of justifiable homicide/self defense after they withdraw from the initial contact.

GZ's statement (and there is nothing offered so far to refute it) is that he was walking back to his vehicle when he was attacked, therefore any actions he may have taken before that no longer matter - if he had a reasonable belief he was in peril of loss of life or great bodily harm, the homicide is justified, and he walks.

Remember that until Zimmerman proves that it's his voice pleading for help on that 911 tape, we cannot believe a word he says.

[Smokey 1]

What suspect?

That's the point.

A suspect of recent breakins. He matched the description. That is the point.

I didn't refer to Zimmerman as a racist, though you seem inordinately touchy about the subject.

I'm explaining why he's a murderer.

Some here apparently think it is racist to watch a young male black suspect when the description of the perps are young black males. It defies logic.

"Keeping an eye on?"

Try "Stalking."

Sorry, doesn't fit the legal definition of stalking no matter how much you want it to.

Obviously best left to the criminal investigators.

He called them.

There is nothing "wrong" with following somebody --- even after a dispatcher suggests you not do it.

No and it wasn't illegal either.

But it is a FACT in this case --- like the profiling.

Profiling is a legitimate investigative technique.

[Cameron]

How could the tape possibly be damning when there was an eye witness who saw Zimmerman on his back pleading for help?

Because I listened to the tape.

It's damning.

[8ball]

Most likely because there are conflicting eye witness reports where as the FBI will more likely than not be able to identify who it was screaming for help on the tape beyond a reasonable doubt.

The witness, John, is very credible and identified Zimmerman on the bottom. He walked right past them. I'm sure his description to the authorities will be much more detailed than what was given to the reporter through his door.

[Jeebus]

Most likely because there are conflicting eye witness reports where as the FBI will more likely than not be able to identify who it was screaming for help on the tape beyond a reasonable doubt.

lol, only in fantasy land.

For your scenario to even be offered as "beyond a reasonable doubt" you would have to believe that GZ laid on the wet ground (causing grass stains and moisture on the back of his shirt), bashed his own head into the concrete (causing wounds to the back of his head) was able to change shirts with TM to confuse the eyewitness as to who was "on top of the other" and that for some reason TM was screaming while he was on top of GZ.

Not only is this an insurmountable obstacle to clear for "beyond a reasonable doubt" it doesn't even come close to the civil standard of "preponderance (51%) of the evidence."

If reasonable doubt exists, is it better for a "possibly guilty" man to go free or is it better for a "possibly innocent man" to go to jail?

Our entire justice system exists on this principal, and GZ will walk a free man because of it.

[WKDWZD]

Most likely because there are conflicting eye witness reports where as the FBI will more likely than not be able to identify who it was screaming for help on the tape beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't want to play the race card here but it can't be all that difficult to determine who's voice was calling for help... Even I can tell the tonal difference between Speedy Gonzales and Uncle Tom.

[8ball]

In a case where you know the criminal at large is an african american male....no you do not look for caucasians to be the suspect. If however Zimmerman thought he was the suspect as he claims and seemed to be fine with tailing him and asking him what he was doing why not simply ask him there on the spot at the beginning? Why tail him before confronting him about it?

Because Zimmerman had no intention of confronting him ever. It's his MO and he has a history of acting in the same manner. His only intention was to assertain the whereabouts of Trayvon for the police so he wouldn't get away. Based on information known about Zimmerman historically as a watchman this seems very likely. Unless you're an enraged kooky leftist who only sees blacks as victims.

[Cameron]

I don't want to play the race card here but it can't be all that difficult to determine who's voice was calling for help... Even I can tell the tonal difference between Speedy Gonzales and Uncle Tom.

Not sure if you listened to the tape, but the voice pleading for help kinda sounds like Michael Jackson.

[Smokey 1]

Because I listened to the tape.

It's damning.

And you are unbiased right?

[Byng]

lol, only in fantasy land.

For your scenario to even be offered as "beyond a reasonable doubt" you would have to believe that GZ laid on the wet ground (causing grass stains and moisture on the back of his shirt), bashed his own head into the concrete (causing wounds to the back of his head) was able to change shirts with TM to confuse the eyewitness as to who was "on top of the other" and that for some reason TM was screaming while he was on top of GZ.

Not only is this an insurmountable obstacle to clear for "beyond a reasonable doubt" it doesn't even come close to the civil standard of "preponderance (51%) of the evidence."

If reasonable doubt exists, is it better for a "possibly guilty" man to go free or is it better for a "possibly innocent man" to go to jail?

Our entire justice system exists on this principal, and GZ will walk a free man because of it.

If it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that it was Martin screaming for help and his life in the seconds leading up to the shot being fired, it will not matter who attacked who or what went on before that.

If it was Martin screaming for help and not Zimmerman it will show that regardless of any attack by Martin, Zimmerman was in complete control of the situation in the seconds leading up to the shot being fired. If that is the case then Zimmerman could have walked away or ordered Martin to walk away and the fact that he shot and killed Martin under those circumstances is probably why the Special Prosecutor has charged Zimmerman, with 2nd. Degree Murder.

[8ball]

Because I listened to the tape.

It's damning.

Okay, you have a tape of someone screaming for help. Trayvons father admitted that it was not his son. At least until he was told by Crump that he has to say it was his son or we lose.

I believe the word of a credible eyewitness stating that Zimmerman was on the bottom being pummeled and screaming for help will suffice.

[Cameron]

And you are unbiased right?

You may think I'm biased, smokey, but that's your opinion.

I expect that Martin's Mom is biased, but that doesn't mean she was lying when she identified her son's pleas the first time she heard him.

If you listened to that tape and you want to claim that that could be Zimmerman, you're kidding yourself.

Speaking of bias.