Every Confirmed Football Game for Every MD HS

[sparky1]

The talk of the MIAA folding has to be just that talk. I really do not think it would happen because of the difficulty in making schedules, and the general desire to keep long standing rivalries intact.

That said, I think casting aspersions on CHC and Loyola as the spoiled children in this debate is nuts. Those schools, along with MSJ are the only schools in the MIAA who compete in the A conference in every sport. At every level. . . . When some of the other MIAA schools commit to being in the A conference in everything, from Freshman through Varsity then they can start calling the shots.

The problem within the conference comes down to athletic financial aid. Some schools depend on it, some do not. It has more and more in recent years come to bring resentment in the league as schools are percieved to be buying players. The league has not found a way to grapple with this problem. Aid ultimately is called financial aid and no school is going to question another school about the size or type of aid packages that are offered. That is not to say that they do not know what is going on. It leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of some. . . Georgetown Prep's latest dip into the waters is an example. They gave it several years, saw what the game in the MIAA was like and opted to not play anymore. Now there dilemma is one that will be faced by other schools looking to go independent--"Who do we play? and what are we playing for?"

Football in the MIAA may need to revert back to the model of a few years ago. Crown a champions based on the best regular season record. It is a model that worked well, there is after all no shame in being co-champions, and in a league with only 7 members no real need for a playoff/ championship game. Unless they were to expand the league to beyond 9 teams.

In short the loser in the argument over who would be hurt if the MIAA fractured is everyone. The trick should be to expand the league and its offerings.

[eaglesinsider]

The talk of the MIAA folding has to be just that talk. I really do not think it would happen because of the difficulty in making schedules, and the general desire to keep long standing rivalries intact.

That said, I think casting aspersions on CHC and Loyola as the spoiled children in this debate is nuts. Those schools, along with MSJ are the only schools in the MIAA who compete in the A conference in every sport. At every level. . . . When some of the other MIAA schools commit to being in the A conference in everything, from Freshman through Varsity then they can start calling the shots.

McDonogh is in the MIAA A in every sport, with 1,000 less male students than CHC/MSJ and 500 less than Loyola.

[eaglesinsider]

Yes, we all know Gilman and McDonogh have more money than god. LOL

How do you know there is a "master plan" to dissolve the MIAA? How do you know CHC and Loyola are driving this? Hearsay? Are you talking about message board driven opinions or actual AD's, HC's, Alumni Associations, Principals, ect?

Well, I do happen to be fairly well connected. I initially only stated a (fairly) minor news item that the MIAA A would most likely be doing away with the playoffs in 2013 because of Prep leaving and the whining (literally the word my source used) to the league office of CHC/Loyola ever since the playoffs were instituted.

RM7 then said he heard that the MIAA might be done and that they were looking at forming a Catholic League with the MIAA Catholic Schools and some of the WCAC Schools. Big Sky and you yourself have both insinuated similar notions.

Seeing this, I then followed up with a few people who are well connected in the MIAA. They confirmed the behind the back talks and the aspirations of CHC/Loyola to form a new catholic league. A possible other motivation is the lack of desire/inability to go to Gilman recruiting levels, as you yourself have said.

[GREYHOUND ALUM]

Your smug, blue blooded arrogance is shining bright! Too bad it's not CHC and Loyola who are on the outside. Give me a break! Your argument about switching dates forward one weekend is WEAK at best.You were taken back when your game was pushed forward one week. I hate to see what would have happened if the blue blooded brats (McDonogh/Gilman) game was initially slated to be played on September 30th in 2011 as was the case when the MIAA initially scheduled Calvert Hall and Loyola to play on September 30th. Any way you look at it, Gilman and McDonogh are still playing their game during the last week of the regular season.


As for your retort ( I guess that's what it is) to my direct quote in reference to the Catholic School thing. I
mentioned the fact that a handful of HC's of Catholic Schools in the MIAA agreed in principle to not conduct business in the same manner as the Gilman's of the world. Did that bother you? For example, you have a problem with not stepping on the toes of others by not throwing as much money as possible at kids in the 11th hour? That example is one of many things that were discussed.

I come back to all this. So much bull I don't even know which one to respond to. To Sum up all of this, CHC realizes that they can't win point blank. They know that the game is over and basically have thrown the white flag up. Loyola is going to ride with you because they threw the white flag up years ago. So the two of you have decided to start a movement to basically get Gilman out of the league. But the truth is, no one is following you! McDonogh will stay with Gilman, MSJ I promise you will not come, Spalding NO WAY. You think GC and DeMatha is going to start a league with you? HELL NO!

Whose going to fund this so called new league? Why would anyone come just to see these games? Will Loyola and CHC play every week? Because unless you do then there will be no interest in a private school league in Baltimore without Gilman in it! This is a FACT! You don't want to play the game, cool leave. No one is holding you hostage like you have the league for year's. Like I have said, McDonogh is making moves, MSJ is making moves, teams have seen the direction of high school football. You can't keep up or move out the way!

[lord_baltimore]

By my count, assuming an (unlikely) worst case scenario where all the Catholic schools (except St. Paul's) leave, the

St Paul's is not a Catholic school.

[sparky1]

The division if it comes in the MIAA schools will be along the lines of the Catholics/parochial schools and everyone else. The non religious based schools will have to decide if they want to be in a league with McDOnogh and GIlman. I would liken it to anyone wanting to start a league with the Yankees and Red Sox. No school in Maryland can compete with these two in a money game. Both of these schools can decide to dominate any sport at any time and do so, just by focusing their resources on it. I do not think they would find many takers in a league of their own.

It is a shame that those schools, even with a difference in enrollment do not spread the wealth about a bit more. By my quick and by no means non official count this is what i found.

McDonogh does not compete in Volleyball, Ice Hockey or Rugby. Has no Freshman teams in soccer, football, lacrosse, or basketball. They do not have a JV or freshman baseball team?

Gilman does not compete in Rugby, plays in the B conference in ice hockey, basketball, and swimming (but does compete in the A conference at the JV level).

If the question is who would come to see the games in this area, the answer would be the same as always comes: the parents and friends of the athletes. The more local the flavor of the game the bigger the gate. . . which at most of these league games is free anyway.

[GREYHOUND ALUM]

The division if it comes in the MIAA schools will be along the lines of the Catholics/parochial schools and everyone else. The non religious based schools will have to decide if they want to be in a league with McDOnogh and GIlman. I would liken it to anyone wanting to start a league with the Yankees and Red Sox. No school in Maryland can compete with these two in a money game. Both of these schools can decide to dominate any sport at any time and do so, just by focusing their resources on it. I do not think they would find many takers in a league of their own.

It is a shame that those schools, even with a difference in enrollment do not spread the wealth about a bit more. By my quick and by no means non official count this is what i found.

McDonogh does not compete in Volleyball, Ice Hockey or Rugby. Has no Freshman teams in soccer, football, lacrosse, or basketball. They do not have a JV or freshman baseball team?

Gilman does not compete in Rugby, plays in the B conference in ice hockey, basketball, and swimming (but does compete in the A conference at the JV level).

If the question is who would come to see the games in this area, the answer would be the same as always comes: the parents and friends of the athletes. The more local the flavor of the game the bigger the gate. . . which at most of these league games is free anyway.

I think you are in for a rude awakening if you think all of the Catholic schools would follow CHC/Loyola. There has been bad feelings from ALL THE SCHOOLS over the Turkey Bowl. No new league is going to be held hostage from these two schools any longer over this game. I'm sorry, it's done and over with. It has impeded the league for far to long. The game is essentially an exhibition game now in the first place. No one outside of these two schools care.

Just to let you know, MONEY TALKS! Like it or not, McDonogh and Gilman have plenty of it. St. Paul's and BL also have plenty of it. They will follow Gilman and McD. The rest of the league will follow THE MONEY BOTTOM LINE!

[Hallman]

I have been reading this while attempting to keep an objective opinion. I freely admit complete objectivity may not be possible. If there is talk of breaking up the MIAA, I for one hope it doesn't happen. A typical Baltimoron, I lke the "underdog" role and taking on the "money machine". It makes winning that much more sweet. However, If Calvert Hall, Loyola and others feel they do not like the direction the recruiting process has gone, I understand. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions based on what you believe is right. This doesn't make the other schools wrong, just two different views.

Reading Greyhound Alum's numerous comments, it seems it always gets back to CHC, Loyola and the Thanksgiving day game. Apparently, a playoff wasn't enough. It seems painfully obvious that without putting and end to the Turkey Bowl, "victory" could not be achieved.

Funny, one can possess all of life's riches but if he or she is jealous over what they don't have, happiness will be fleeting.

[Big Sky]

I think you are in for a rude awakening if you think all of the Catholic schools would follow CHC/Loyola. There has been bad feelings from ALL THE SCHOOLS over the Turkey Bowl. No new league is going to be held hostage from these two schools any longer over this game. I'm sorry, it's done and over with. It has impeded the league for far to long. The game is essentially an exhibition game now in the first place. No one outside of these two schools care.

Just to let you know, MONEY TALKS! Like it or not, McDonogh and Gilman have plenty of it. St. Paul's and BL also have plenty of it. They will follow Gilman and McD. The rest of the league will follow THE MONEY BOTTOM LINE!

I think anyone that attempts to speak for any of these programs is foolish at best. If you asked 10 people from 7 schools what is the problem you would get 20 /30 problems/Change is not always good. It is never greener on the other side. All this is going to do is create bad blood and that is the last thing that is needed. What makes the MIAA is the fact that any given year 3-4 schools could beat anyone. GH if you really think Gilman has been dominate over the last 5 years, You need to get to a Doctor. Gilman has a very good team that is not being Argued. Dominate in my eyes is when you go undefeated for 2,3,4,5 years and you beat everyone by 3,4 Touch downs. When that Occurs please feel free to speak up.You mention that CHC and Loyola is no more than a exhibition game. In some ways your right so what is the Problem having an exhibition game after the season is over? If the game is a problem than how is it ant different from Gilman not wanting to extend the season.CHC and Loyola have a reason they want this game, Gilman has a reason they do not want to extend the season. Neither school is wrong for having their Opinion. Its okay that Gilman puts alot of money in theur football program, CHC does the same in Baseball and Lacrosse. This year those schools won a title where they put their money Last year the opposite happened. Spending the most money does not always win you a title. Just ask the yankees.

[eaglesinsider]

It is a shame that those schools, even with a difference in enrollment do not spread the wealth about a bit more. By my quick and by no means non official count this is what i found.

McDonogh does not compete in Volleyball, Ice Hockey or Rugby. Has no Freshman teams in soccer, football, lacrosse, or basketball. They do not have a JV or freshman baseball team?

Gilman does not compete in Rugby, plays in the B conference in ice hockey, basketball, and swimming (but does compete in the A conference at the JV level).

If the question is who would come to see the games in this area, the answer would be the same as always comes: the parents and friends of the athletes. The more local the flavor of the game the bigger the gate. . . which at most of these league games is free anyway.

McDonogh has less male numbers than any school in the MIAA A. They manage to field 2 cross country teams, and 2 water polo teams in the fall. They do have 3 soccer teams, including a freshman soccer team, but they play in the JV MIAA B because there was a lack of teams in that league. Starting a volleyball team has been brought up in recent years.

McD fields mens 9 teams in the fall, an average of 25 students per team. Calvert Hall fields 12 teams in the fall, an average of 100 students per team.

Yes they don't have Freshman/Sophomore football team, maybe because they have less than 30 kids on JV most years. I guess they could go 14 kids on JV and 13 at the freshman level. There are more males in one grade (300) at CHC than in the entire upper school at McD (225). The money advantage for McD is the only thing that levels the playing field. CHC/Loyola want to go back to the old MSA days where school enrollment, not money, dictated who was dominant.

In the winter McD fields 2 indoor track teams, 2 swimming teams, 2 wrestling teams, and 3 squash teams. They have 3 basketball teams, they actually do have a Freshman basketball team, again playing in the B Conference. They don't have ice hockey yet, but there is a long term plan for an ice hockey arena on campus, after that is built a team will be added.

McD fields mens 12 teams in the winter, an average of 19 students per team. CHC fields 13 teams in the winter, an average of 92 students per team

In the spring McD fields 2 golf teams, 3 lacrosse teams, 3 tennis teams, and 2 track teams. They do have a JV baseball team, but they are in the B Conference. They don't field a rugby team, you are correct there.

McD fields mens 12 teams in the spring, an average of 19 students per team. CHC fields 14 teams in the spring, an average of 86 students per team.

How thin do you want McD to be spread? CHC has 4-5 times the amount of students available for each team than McD does and these numbers don't even account for the large co-ed equestrian program, which isn't a MIAA sanctioned sport.

[sparky1]

I do not want to spread McDonogh thin, just pointing out that they have made a decision. They could always up the enrollment at the school and bring in more out of area kids, or even more local kids. They have truely world class facilities and they have done a great job frosting the cupcake they have. The point is that they have decided to stay small and dominate in a few areas rather than grow and compete in everything. It is not a failing it is a decision about the school. Some schools make sheet cakes and are catholic with a small c about athletics, some pick and choose.
When we are talking about football (and that is the entire discussion here isn't it?) some of the schools are getting to feel like they are in non competitive situation, and they do not like it. It is one thing to say that there are natural cycles as programs rise and fall, but with the introduction of money you lock in a system that seems (to some) to ensure non competitive situations.

[eaglesinsider]

I do not want to spread McDonogh thin, just pointing out that they have made a decision. They could always up the enrollment at the school and bring in more out of area kids, or even more local kids. They have truely world class facilities and they have done a great job frosting the cupcake they have. The point is that they have decided to stay small and dominate in a few areas rather than grow and compete in everything. It is not a failing it is a decision about the school. Some schools make sheet cakes and are catholic with a small c about athletics, some pick and choose.
When we are talking about football (and that is the entire discussion here isn't it?) some of the schools are getting to feel like they are in non competitive situation, and they do not like it. It is one thing to say that there are natural cycles as programs rise and fall, but with the introduction of money you lock in a system that seems (to some) to ensure non competitive situations.

I understand where you're coming from, and appreciate you being so civil about this.

I can see how upping spending is threatening to Loyola/CHC and others. However, from the McDonogh point of view, when we weren't spending, we were the laughing stock of the MSA for most of the time from the leagues formation up to the 80s.

Upping enrollment may be a possibility for McD in the future, there are a couple new academic buildings being built. I don't think you'll ever see them go to a huge enrollment increase simply because the administration feels that increasing the size of the student body too much would take away from the "eliteness" the school has.

Generally speaking when you have no recruiting, the schools with the large enrollments will be better than the schools with small enrollments, especially in a sport like football that requires a high number of players. I mean, that's why the public schools use enrollment based classifications. When you look at the history of Baltimore private schools in the MSA before recruiting really took off, it was almost always the larger schools that dominated. You yourself mentioned that CHC/Loyola and MSJ are the only 3 schools that stayed in the MSA/MIAA A conferences the whole times. They also happen to be the 3 biggest schools in the area.

Not recruiting at all would relegate McD and Gilman to the level of similar sized schools like BL and St. Paul's.

Maryland is one of only a few states where this is even a problem, because the publics and privates do not compete side by side in an enrollment based league. If we went strictly by enrollment in a combined league, McD and Gilman would be competing for 1A championships, not trying to compete with schools with 1,000 more kids than them.

[GREYHOUND ALUM]

I think anyone that attempts to speak for any of these programs is foolish at best. If you asked 10 people from 7 schools what is the problem you would get 20 /30 problems/Change is not always good. It is never greener on the other side. All this is going to do is create bad blood and that is the last thing that is needed. What makes the MIAA is the fact that any given year 3-4 schools could beat anyone. GH if you really think Gilman has been dominate over the last 5 years, You need to get to a Doctor. Gilman has a very good team that is not being Argued. Dominate in my eyes is when you go undefeated for 2,3,4,5 years and you beat everyone by 3,4 Touch downs. When that Occurs please feel free to speak up.You mention that CHC and Loyola is no more than a exhibition game. In some ways your right so what is the Problem having an exhibition game after the season is over? If the game is a problem than how is it ant different from Gilman not wanting to extend the season.CHC and Loyola have a reason they want this game, Gilman has a reason they do not want to extend the season. Neither school is wrong for having their Opinion. Its okay that Gilman puts alot of money in theur football program, CHC does the same in Baseball and Lacrosse. This year those schools won a title where they put their money Last year the opposite happened. Spending the most money does not always win you a title. Just ask the yankees.

You and Hallman are talking to the wrong person. Gilman and others aren't the ones behind the scenes trying to disband the league!!! It's the CHC and Loyola people that are doing this. Gilman is fine with the way the league is now. It's others that now feel that Gilman has an unfair advantage. Gilman doesn't believe this. Now I personally believe that Gilman will dominate the league for years to come. But that's my opinion.

And I totally disagree with you on your definition of dominance. No I don't think Gilman has been dominant the last 5 years but how long has the league been around? I believe 17 years and Gilman has what, 12 or 13 titles. They have more titles than all of the other schools combined by A LOT. They have never not had a championship in consecutive years. That to me is pretty dominant. When DM ruled the WCAC, they weren't beating every team by 4 TD's.

[GREYHOUND ALUM]

I understand where you're coming from, and appreciate you being so civil about this.

I can see how upping spending is threatening to Loyola/CHC and others. However, from the McDonogh point of view, when we weren't spending, we were the laughing stock of the MSA for most of the time from the leagues formation up to the 80s.

Upping enrollment may be a possibility for McD in the future, there are a couple new academic buildings being built. I don't think you'll ever see them go to a huge enrollment increase simply because the administration feels that increasing the size of the student body too much would take away from the "eliteness" the school has.

Generally speaking when you have no recruiting, the schools with the large enrollments will be better than the schools with small enrollments, especially in a sport like football that requires a high number of players. I mean, that's why the public schools use enrollment based classifications. When you look at the history of Baltimore private schools in the MSA before recruiting really took off, it was almost always the larger schools that dominated. You yourself mentioned that CHC/Loyola and MSJ are the only 3 schools that stayed in the MSA/MIAA A conferences the whole times. They also happen to be the 3 biggest schools in the area.

Not recruiting at all would relegate McD and Gilman to the level of similar sized schools like BL and St. Paul's.

Maryland is one of only a few states where this is even a problem, because the publics and privates do not compete side by side in an enrollment based league. If we went strictly by enrollment in a combined league, McD and Gilman would be competing for 1A championships, not trying to compete with schools with 1,000 more kids than them.

Very good post. By the way, St.Paul's is definitely recruiting for a number of sports. BL is as well but not as much as St. Pauls.

[eaglesinsider]

Very good post. By the way, St.Paul's is definitely recruiting for a number of sports. BL is as well but not as much as St. Pauls.

I didn't mean to suggest that St. Paul's and BL aren't recruiting. Anyone who saw St. Paul's in the 7-on-7 tourney last weekend knows that they have been bringing in kids. I knew they were going to start recruiting more when they brought in Ripley from Gibbons to join their staff.

I meant that without recruiting or with only recruiting on a very limited level, McD/Gilman would be at the same level St. Paul's and BL are at now, meaning top half of the B Conference schools.

In other words, McD would regress to pre-2000 levels, a dominant B Conference team, winning in 97, 98, 99, 00. McD only beat Gilman once (2000) and usually didn't fare too well against the other A Conference teams IIRC. McDonogh without recruiting would not be able to compete year in and year out with the larger enrollment schools in the A Conference.

[prepfan]

The MIAA-A is, of course, all that matters; but it is not all that makes up the MIAA. What do those that are talking about the MIAA 'dissolving' have to say addressing the B and C conferences ?

[eaglesinsider]

The MIAA-A is, of course, all that matters; but it is not all that makes up the MIAA. What do those that are talking about the MIAA 'dissolving' have to say addressing the B and C conferences ?

I wondered about this a little as well. The B and C Conferences have a much wider mix of schools with a wider difference in resources than the A Conference.

The worst case scenario for the smaller schools would be the forming of 1 or 2 "super conferences". If that happens, a lot of them would have a hard time finding games.

It's really hard to tell at this point because no one knows if anything is going to happen or what will happen if the league falls apart. Curley, AACS, BL, and St. Paul's would be fine, but the rest of the schools would have trouble. Of course, there would be enough schools left to form a conference about low-B/high-C level in quality out of the schools that were left.

[eaglesinsider]

I know football drives everything now, but I decided to focus on all sports and see how many MIAA Championships at all levels each school had won. The results, surprising who was in the lead and the 3 biggest schools were 1, 2, and 3 in A Conference championships, but not total championships. Also, 5 schools (MSJ, Loyola, CHC, Gilman, and McD) have combined to win 218 of the 267 possible MIAA A championships (including shared championships), or 82%. The other 25 schools who have played in the MIAA account for 18% of the A Conference championships. Here is the list of all schools who have won MIAA Championships since the start of the league, and the level(s) they have won at:

Total MIAA Championships:
Mount Saint Joseph’s- 50 (50 A)
Gilman School- 50 (44 A, 6 B)
Loyola-Blakefield- 46 (46 A)
Calvert Hall College- 45 (45 A)
McDonogh School- 41 (33 A, 8 B)
Saint Paul’s School for Boy’s- 35 (10 A, 25 B)
Archbishop Curley- 26 (12 A, 13 B, 1 C)
Archbishop Spalding- 24 (8 A, 15 B, 1 C)
Boy’s Latin School of Maryland- 20 (3 A, 15 B, 2 C)
Saint Mary’s- 19 (3 A, 16 B)
Chapelgate Christian- 18 (3 B, 15 C)
Severn School- 16 (16 B)
Annapolis Area Christian School- 15 (9 B, 6 C)
John Carroll School- 11 (5 A, 5 B, 1 C)
Glenelg Country School- 11 (3 B, 8 C)
Saints Peter & Paul- 9 (4 B, 5 C)
Baltimore Lutheran- 9 (1 B, 8 C)
Friends School of Baltimore- 8 (6 B, 2 C)
Towson Catholic- 7 (6 A, 1 C)
Our Lady of Mount Carmel- 7 (4 B, 3 C)
Saint Vincent Pallotti- 6 (5 B, 1 C)
Park School- 6 (3 B, 3 C)
Saint John’s Catholic Prep- 5 (5 C)
Cardinal Gibbons- 4 (3 B, 1 C)
Saint Frances Academy- 4 (2 A, 2 C)
Beth Tfiloh- 4 (2 B, 2 C)
Arlington Baptist- 2 (2 C)
Gerstell Academy- 2 (2 C)
Key School- 2 (2 C)

I guess looking at those numbers, McD, Gilman, CHC, Loyola, and MSJ are all "bullies" to the rest of the league.

[Hallman]

You and Hallman are talking to the wrong person. Gilman and others aren't the ones behind the scenes trying to disband the league!!! It's the CHC and Loyola people that are doing this. Gilman is fine with the way the league is now. It's others that now feel that Gilman has an unfair advantage. Gilman doesn't believe this. Now I personally believe that Gilman will dominate the league for years to come. But that's my opinion.

And I totally disagree with you on your definition of dominance. No I don't think Gilman has been dominant the last 5 years but how long has the league been around? I believe 17 years and Gilman has what, 12 or 13 titles. They have more titles than all of the other schools combined by A LOT. They have never not had a championship in consecutive years. That to me is pretty dominant. When DM ruled the WCAC, they weren't beating every team by 4 TD's.

I hope all this "dissolving the MIAA" talk is just that, talk. We have THE best lacrosse league in the country, a basketball league which can go head to head with any other and football league which is quickly on the rise.
There are a lot of traditional rivalries and new ones getting stronger with each passing year.

As an outsider, looking in, I think some of the schools may feel all this recruiting of players is starting to get out of hand and they want to be sure to keep the focus on the primary objective. Here's to the hope each school can find a balance they can live with.

[GREYHOUND ALUM]

I hope all this "dissolving the MIAA" talk is just that, talk. We have THE best lacrosse league in the country, a basketball league which can go head to head with any other and football league which is quickly on the rise.
There are a lot of traditional rivalries and new ones getting stronger with each passing year.

As an outsider, looking in, I think some of the schools may feel all this recruiting of players is starting to get out of hand and they want to be sure to keep the focus on the primary objective. Here's to the hope each school can find a balance they can live with.

This has nothing to do with primary focus. Let's be real here, Gilman's primary focus is and always will be education. Loyola and CHC knows more than anybody the kind of school Gilman is! This has to do with pure the fact that they feel they can't compete and because of this they want to try and stir up drama. Gilman is fine with the MIAA and it's these two that have the problem.