The O's Have Always Had A Reliever Like Gregg During Losing Years Have They Not?

[Baltimore Ravens Lets Go!]

Benitez
Matthews
Julio
DeJean
Kline
Groom
Timlin
Walker
Baez
Ray
Gonzales
Simon
Gregg
?

(Please feel free to add to the list but a lot of these guys actually had sucess elsewhere either their pre-or post Orioles career. On thing though the have in common and that is they were run out of town as an Oriole).

[Gizmo]

Every team has a reliever (or relievers) like Gregg during losing years. That's part of why they suck.

[Ravens2006]

Short relievers are a volatile, inconsistent bunch. The bigger issue is that the Orioles starters have usually stunk, and their bats are never very good either. So... They give up a bunch of runs early, and they rarely score a lot themselves, which tends to lead to losses.

Spending 4 to 6 million per season on any one short reliever is STUPID when your roster is weak in both the rotation and the order...

[TravisMoon]

You could look at EVERY team in baseball and find a struggling pitcher on their staff EVERY YEAR.

TM

[hector]

You could look at EVERY team in baseball and find a struggling pitcher on their staff EVERY YEAR.

TM

Very true but isn't the real question - why are these struggling pitchers kept around?

[pitbull]

Benitez
Matthews
Julio
DeJean
Kline
Groom
Timlin
Walker
Baez
Ray
Gonzales
Simon
Gregg
?

(Please feel free to add to the list but a lot of these guys actually had sucess elsewhere either their pre-or post Orioles career. On thing though the have in common and that is they were run out of town as an Oriole).

Groom was a decent reliever here until his final season, when his arm burned out. Walker was OK too.

The other guys, however, were worthless.

[Softbank Orioles]

Chris Ray was good but then he got hurt.
Armando Benitez blew some big games but was actually pretty good for us.
Gonzo was good until he got hurt, which was sadly the off season we picked him up.
Mike Timlin had one good season and one bad season for us
Jamie Walker was good for us, but was over used and the wheels fell off...but he wasn't anything like gregg. Walker was a LOOGY. If a LOOGY gives up two runs his ERA is screwed for the season.

But, the main issue with Gregg is that he was never very good yet we gave him a big pile of money. Even Baez had one really good season before we gave him too much money. Gregg was always mediocre at best.

[gps29070]

Very true but isn't the real question - why are these struggling pitchers kept around?

Because they chew innings, save the rest of the bullpen, & protect prospects from being brought up too quickly.. Gregg wasn't horrible last year, in fact, his ERA was around the league average. Gregg's problem is that he nibbles too much, leading to too many walks.

The thing is, you cut Gregg, you just either bring in junk to replace him or you bring up a prospect who isn't ready or in case of a good prospect, you don't want them in a junk position in the bullpen.

[gps29070]

1983 Orioles... They had Dennis Martinez (7-16 5.53 ERA) and Tim Stoddard (6.09 ERA)...

[weenie]

Benitez
Matthews
Julio
DeJean
Kline
Groom
Timlin
Walker
Baez
Ray
Gonzales
Simon
Gregg
?

(Please feel free to add to the list but a lot of these guys actually had sucess elsewhere either their pre-or post Orioles career. On thing though the have in common and that is they were run out of town as an Oriole).

Nice list. I'd rather just focus on the free agent signees however. That excludes Julio, Benitez, Ray and Simon. And I would add Bradford to the mix. It amazes me how many were signed on Mike Flanagan's watch. For a guy who should have known pitching he was snake bit, RIP!

Based on salary and role, IMO DeJean, Timlin, Baez, Matthews and Gonzalez were pretty dang bad but Kline wins for biggest stinker. The guy performed abysmally and then took shots at the franchise on his way out of town.

The bullpen is the least expensive team facit to lock down but the uncertainty of player quality in those roles seems to make it the hardest to fix. Building from within and via low cost alternatives sure seems preferable the high salary guys though. Just look at the spenders who get the Sorianos and then wish their $10M/Yr had been saved for other things.

[Frank Costanza 831]

Gregg is the worst pitcher i have ever seen. Granted i'm not that old but he is the worst in my book

[weenie]

Because they chew innings, save the rest of the bullpen, & protect prospects from being brought up too quickly.. Gregg wasn't horrible last year, in fact, his ERA was around the league average. Gregg's problem is that he nibbles too much, leading to too many walks.

The thing is, you cut Gregg, you just either bring in junk to replace him or you bring up a prospect who isn't ready or in case of a good prospect, you don't want them in a junk position in the bullpen.

Neshek and Phillips both pitched well enough in ST to merit a spot and each has done OK so far this year at AAA.

I think fans are most frustrated when a high cost player in his final contract year is kept over more competitive alternatives due to a lack of willingness to acknowledge mistakes. I'm not sure who is responsible for such thinking but I'll choose to blame greedy Petey.

[TravisMoon]

Very true but isn't the real question - why are these struggling pitchers kept around?

Why was Mitch Williams kept around?

TM

[hector]

Because they chew innings, save the rest of the bullpen, & protect prospects from being brought up too quickly.. Gregg wasn't horrible last year, in fact, his ERA was around the league average. Gregg's problem is that he nibbles too much, leading to too many walks.

The thing is, you cut Gregg, you just either bring in junk to replace him or you bring up a prospect who isn't ready or in case of a good prospect, you don't want them in a junk position in the bullpen.

Here's a novel if somewhat radical idea. If you've got junk in the bullpen, replace the junk with a position player.

[hector]

Why was Mitch Williams kept around?

TM

Actually the "Wild Thing" proves the point that Gregg should have been dumped rather than retained. "Wild Thing" played with four different teams the last four years of his career. Those four teams had the good sense to get rid of him after one year - if only the O's had shown comparable wisdom when it came to handling Gregg.

[Softbank Orioles]

Nice list. I'd rather just focus on the free agent signees however. That excludes Julio, Benitez, Ray and Simon. And I would add Bradford to the mix. It amazes me how many were signed on Mike Flanagan's watch. For a guy who should have known pitching he was snake bit, RIP!

Based on salary and role, IMO DeJean, Timlin, Baez, Matthews and Gonzalez were pretty dang bad but Kline wins for biggest stinker. The guy performed abysmally and then took shots at the franchise on his way out of town.

The bullpen is the least expensive team facit to lock down but the uncertainty of player quality in those roles seems to make it the hardest to fix. Building from within and via low cost alternatives sure seems preferable the high salary guys though. Just look at the spenders who get the Sorianos and then wish their $10M/Yr had been saved for other things.

Why would you add Bradford?

[weenie]

Why would you add Bradford?

Bradford was so valuable he brought ???? in trade. If he was getting paid the league min. OK, but he was making a lot more and IMO did not measure up. How well did he really do? And, as I recall Tampa did not even add him to their post season roster even though they could.

[Softbank Orioles]

Bradford was so valuable he brought ???? in trade. If he was getting paid the league min. OK, but he was making a lot more and IMO did not measure up. How well did he really do? And, as I recall Tampa did not even add him to their post season roster even though they could.

He was halfway through the last year of his contract. You won't get much for most players in that circumstance. Especially not a middle reliever. But he was by no means bad.

Tampa DID add Brad to their postseason roster. He gave up one run in 7 games pitched. He had a career 0.39 post season ERA.

He pitched something like 20 straight scoreless playoff games before giving up one run in the ALCS.

[weenie]

He was halfway through the last year of his contract. You won't get much for most players in that circumstance. Especially not a middle reliever. But he was by no means bad.

Tampa DID add Brad to their postseason roster. He gave up one run in 7 games pitched. He had a career 0.39 post season ERA.

He pitched something like 20 straight scoreless playoff games before giving up one run in the ALCS.

I will defer to your statistical prowess. But, if he was good enough to deliver those stats, why did the O's get nothing in return? Was it a FO blunder, a concession to a player or a move to help Tampa out vs NY and the Sox? My memories/perceptions of Bradford are more mediocre than yours and often stats don't reveal the true nature of the player in crunch situations especially as it relates to inherited runners but I'm more than happy to acknowledge my view is somehow skewed.

I tend to lump all three signees brought in by Flanny that year (Baez, Bradford, Walker) together. In my view Walker and Bradford both had a few decent performances but neither justified the contracts they got.

[pitbull]

But, if he was good enough to deliver those stats, why did the O's get nothing in return?

Because MacFail was running the organization.