I agree. I would hope and assume that NBA team would consider his inability to keep cleanOriginally Posted by slapshot
I agree. I would hope and assume that NBA team would consider his inability to keep clean
Member
LOL,nice try, but incorrect. Typical ESPn incomplete analysis.
There are usually three levels of rules:
(1) NCAA rules.
(2) Universaity rules.
(3) Coaches (or athletic dept) rules.
Purdue's BB coach, Matt Painter is an old school hard arse. Fact.
As one goes from #1 to #3, the rules typically get more stringent. In Purdue's case, Painter is a "2 strikes and your gone kind of guy". There are plenty of examples of this. From this year alone (just prior to entering the NCAA tourney), Painter kicked Barlow off the team for his 2nd offense.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...asketball-down
"Byrd was charged early this morning with a public intoxication charge after an incident that sent the Boilermaker nation into a stir. But not many expected all of this to come about.
Kelsey Barlow was involved in the incident and since it is his second offense violating team rules, he has been officially dismissed from the Purdue squad."
http://www.fox59.com/sports/wxin-021...,7718782.story
Barlow was susapended by Painter (purdue's BB coach) before the 2011 NCAA tourney for "conduct detrimental to the team). That was strike #1 for Barlow. His 2nd strike came this Spring at this bar, By the way, both players are of legal drinking age.
"When Matt Painter turned down the Missouri job to stay at Purdue, I am quite sure he did not have this in mind for his first season post-contract extension, but I commend him for handling this the right way.
He gave Barlow another chance, but the kid blew it. I have not seen one Purdue fan arguing against his dismissal. Not only does his dismissal seem justified based on what I’ve read of the situation, but it’s a stand Painter had to take for the integrity of the program moving forward."
Oh, and with Painter, it doesn't matter what the offense is - from a failed drug test, to jay walking, to intoxicaation, etc. On your 2nd strike, your're gone. Fact.
But not surprised ESpn got this wrong. They usually do.
Member
Slap: Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to "burn" you or something like that, I just assumed that the ESPN article was accurate (which I think it might still be - see below) and you would want to know Purdue's standards were similar to MD's.
Also, with the understanding that there are 3 levels of rules (NCAA, School & Team/Coach) and that the ESPN article was written in the context of CFB not basketball, Painter's policies are also not necessarily inconsistent with what ESPN reported.
ESPN referred to "Athletes at ... Purdue" facing mandatory suspensions until a third failed test, but it's unclear whether they were talking about all athletes at the school or just athletes on the football team. If ESPN was referring to all athletes at Purdue, they're probably referring to the school's policy of 3 strikes = a mandatory suspension, in which case they failed to accurately note that some athletes may be subject to more stringent standards by their individual teams/coaches (like Painter). In that event, what ESPN reported is incomplete and therefore incorrect. On the other hand, if ESPN was referring to just the athletes on the football team at Purdue, they're probably referring to the football team's policy of 3 strikes and you're out. In that event, what they reported isn't incorrect but they should've substituted the term "football players" for "Athletes."
Member
Thought we were talking basketball, not football?And no idea, nor do I care, about what ESPN thinks they know.
But here are the rules at Purdue, and as I already stated, each coach, or each program has the authority to raise the bar from what's shown here. In regard to the basketball program @ Purdue, under Matt Painter, a player has one free pass, and then on the 2nd violation of team rules, the player is dismissed. This is fact, and is born out by the palyers he has dismissed from the program over the years. It's called tough love, something that's gone out of vogue with many programs:
6. Apart from the drug testing program, the coaching staff of each intercollegiate sport will have their own training rules and requirements which include prohibitions concerning the use of drugs. Individual team rules and sanctions may be more comprehensive and/or restrictive than those listed in this drug education and testing document. As in the past, each coach will have the necessary authority to enforce these rules. A student-athlete whose system contains drug residues may not be capable of performing sports activities and may detract from team performance and/or be a hazard to himself/herself and others. Accordingly, coaches may properly take positive drug test results into consideration along with any other indications of drug use, as a factor in determining whether, and to what extent, a particular student-athlete should be permitted to practice, workout, or compete in her/her sport. The coach will consult with the team physician and athletic trainer in such cases. However, the following provision will apply in all situations:
7. Because under Big Ten Conference rules formal suspension or dismissal from an athletic team for drug usage may result in non-renewal of financial grant-in-aid, a coach may only take such formal action with regard to positive drug test results under circumstances stated in Paragraph 7 below.
The Big Ten Conference financial grant-in-aid forms contain the following
provision:
“The financial aid provided in this tender may not be renewed if I am
suspended from athletic competition or dismissed from an athletic team
for participating in the use, sale, or distribution of any narcotic drug
or controlled substance”
Even where formal suspension or dismissal from an athletic team has occurred, Big Ten and NCAA regulations would require that a student be given the opportunity for a hearing, within the division of Financial Aids, if the University proposed not to renew any athletic scholarship or grant-in-aid previously awarded to the student.
So, in summary, if you are trying to infer/imply that Md and Purdue's basketball programs have similar Draconian disciplinary rules/measures, then I will strongly disagree. Matt Painter is very much a no nonesense, hard-arse, old school disciplinarian. There aren't too many coaches like him still coaching today...most kids can't handle his brand of tough love.
Good for Matt.
Member
Dinosaurs
Member
Pankey transfers. Only 2 players from last year's team remains
Member
That is a good thing - the more players that leave, the more top tier talent Turgeon can bring in to upgrade the team.
Member
Also, 3 players return next year - Padgett at the 4, Howard at the 1 (although he is coming off an injury), and Faust at the 2 or 3.
Member
Alex Len is also coming back.
Member
That's what I get for quoting the Sun. D'oh
Member
I wonder if Dodd will still redshirt now, If not, we will still have a 4 man rotation at the 4-5 spots, it will be young but talented.
Member
I think Dodd has always been a candidate to redshirt or go to prep school - he's just too raw.
I also forgot about Len, who will probably only stick around for another year before declaring for the draft. Next year's front court will be filthy, but the backcourt could be a major problem if Howard can't come back from his injury - he's the only true 1 on the squad.
Member
Seth Allen has pg skills, and jr is supposedly better at playing the point than his old man. I know dodd is raw, but it would be nice to have a 5th man to throw down low.
Member
Is that a direct quote from Jake?
Member
Reefer is not a performance enhancer. And, it's rampant in the NBA. It's a chill substance to wind down with after a game. The problem is that even in small amounts it still shows up in your body 20+ days later. This is much to do about nothing except to the sanctimonious beer swilling DWI crowd.
Member
Intolerance is not a badge of courage. In my experience, even hard asses selectively enforce based on their own moral compass which is skewed by their own prejudices. Absolute power always corrupts!Thought we were talking basketball, not football?
But here are the rules at Purdue, and as I already stated, each coach, or each program has the authority to raise the bar from what's shown here. In regard to the basketball program @ Purdue, under Matt Painter, a player has one free pass, and then on the 2nd violation of team rules, the player is dismissed. This is fact, and is born out by the palyers he has dismissed from the program over the years. It's called tough love, something that's gone out of vogue with many programs:
6. Apart from the drug testing program, the coaching staff of each intercollegiate sport will have their own training rules and requirements which include prohibitions concerning the use of drugs. Individual team rules and sanctions may be more comprehensive and/or restrictive than those listed in this drug education and testing document. As in the past, each coach will have the necessary authority to enforce these rules. A student-athlete whose system contains drug residues may not be capable of performing sports activities and may detract from team performance and/or be a hazard to himself/herself and others. Accordingly, coaches may properly take positive drug test results into consideration along with any other indications of drug use, as a factor in determining whether, and to what extent, a particular student-athlete should be permitted to practice, workout, or compete in her/her sport. The coach will consult with the team physician and athletic trainer in such cases. However, the following provision will apply in all situations:
7. Because under Big Ten Conference rules formal suspension or dismissal from an athletic team for drug usage may result in non-renewal of financial grant-in-aid, a coach may only take such formal action with regard to positive drug test results under circumstances stated in Paragraph 7 below.
The Big Ten Conference financial grant-in-aid forms contain the following
provision:
“The financial aid provided in this tender may not be renewed if I am
suspended from athletic competition or dismissed from an athletic team
for participating in the use, sale, or distribution of any narcotic drug
or controlled substance”
Even where formal suspension or dismissal from an athletic team has occurred, Big Ten and NCAA regulations would require that a student be given the opportunity for a hearing, within the division of Financial Aids, if the University proposed not to renew any athletic scholarship or grant-in-aid previously awarded to the student.
So, in summary, if you are trying to infer/imply that Md and Purdue's basketball programs have similar Draconian disciplinary rules/measures, then I will strongly disagree. Matt Painter is very much a no nonesense, hard-arse, old school disciplinarian. There aren't too many coaches like him still coaching today...most kids can't handle his brand of tough love.
Good for Matt.
Member
Nice sermon.
This might be your experience, but that does not reflect either the facts, nor who Matt Painter is as a coach.
May I suggest that unless you know the person, the program....that you refrain from white-washing someone's character with your own biases and experience. Not all coaches, or programs, are the same.
Matt Painter, while a hard arse, does not "selectively" apply his rules or moral compass. They apply - equally - to everyone on the team. This has been born out many times during his 7 year tenure as head coach.
As for being a hard arse - well, my opinion is we need more of it in bigtime college athletics...where some athletes think they are bigger than the program, and are entitled. We read about (every day) all the off court/field crap that athletes do...and I have no doubt what doesn't reach the press because of lenient coaches who only care about winning - is far more. Nope, IMO, we need more hard arse coaches like Matt Painter.
As a side note (not to dig up the past) - but do think Len Bias might be alive today had he receive some tough love during his career? The point being, it's not black and white. There is grey. Coaches like Lefty on one side, and a few remaining hard arses on the other.
"State's Attorney Arthur A. Marshall Jr. stated that in the hours after Bias's death, Maryland head basketball coach Lefty Driesell told players to remove drugs from Bias's dorm room.[12] Two days later, Bias's father, James, accused the University of Maryland, and Driesell specifically, of neglecting the academic status of its athletes.[12] "
Last edited by slapshot; 05-18-2012 at 03:39 PM.
Member
Regarding Painter, I know nothing of his character beyond your comments. As far as "whitewashing", Ironically it sounds like you are doing exactly that with the student athletes you critique.
My point was, and is that zero tolerance punishment is not a magic bullet no matter what some hard aholes want to believe. Good teachers, and coaches know individuals respond in different ways to discipline. Some need the stick while others need less abrasive means of coaxing.
Regarding Bias, it was reported adnauseum he was not a drug user until his college career was long over. He started the freebasing in the last few days leading up to the draft and his inexperience, combined with his physical conditioning led him to falsely think he was immune to the adverse effects of excessive inhalation. Dreisell's crime was in trying to cover up the incident for Bias' sake not his own.
Member
Don't wish to belabor the point, since this is not relevant to the thread, and the topic has been dead for sometime (until you renewed). But no. I haven't whitewashed anything, or anybody.
First off - my comments are directed at coaches (any coach), and how they run their program. Not a Lefty fan, but have been a strong and repeated supporter of Gary for running (as far as I know) a clean and above-board program....oh, and along the way, managed to deliver the only men's BB championship for UMd. In my book, that puts him above most coaches.
Secondly - what athletes have I "critiqued"? Please provide the list of athletes you think I have "critiqued". If you are referring to my comment (actually, it was a question to you) about Len Bias, and what happened 20 years ago - hardly a "critique". It was a matter of quoting public record.
My point was, and is that zero tolerance punishment is not a magic bullet no matter what some hard aholes want to believe. Good teachers, and coaches know individuals respond in different ways to discipline. Some need the stick while others need less abrasive means of coaxing.
Then say that from the outset, rather than making inferences to Painter and how he runs his program. You know jack about this coach, yet, you felt compelled to makes comments that clearly inferred he's no different than all the rest:
"...even hard asses selectively enforce based on their own moral compass which is skewed by their own prejudices. Absolute power always corrupts!"
Come back with facts that show he's been "corrupted by absolute power", or selectively applied the rules, and then you can make backhanded swipes at his character.
If you had read what I wrote, you would know he is not "a zero tolerance" coach. He has a two strike policy. On the first strike, he forgives (with the appropriae NCAA/university applied suspension). On the 2nd strike, you're gone from the program. That is not zero tolerance. He gives all his players one free pass to screw up...and that rule applies to everyone, including starters or bench warmers. The kid Painter kicked off the team for his 2nd violation (bar altercation) was an important junior starter/contributor to the team. Think he averaged about 8 pts per game. Tough love.
Regarding Bias, it was reported adnauseum he was not a drug user until his college career was long over. He started the freebasing in the last few days leading up to the draft and his inexperience, combined with his physical conditioning led him to falsely think he was immune to the adverse effects of excessive inhalation. Dreisell's crime was in trying to cover up the incident for Bias' sake not his own.
Would you like me to pull up the court records that contradict your first sentence?
First time user? Not likely. There are even more articles and blogs that clearly take the position this was not his first time.
From a credible source not emotionally connected to the case, ESPN -
"The Day Innocence Died"
TWO COMMONLY TOLD ELEMENTS OF THE BIAS NARRATIVE THAT ARE ALMOST CERTAINLY FALSE
"1. Len Bias was experimenting with cocaine for the first time that night.
Origin:
Q: Could this have been his first encounter with cocaine?
A: That is possible, yes.
-- Maryland medical examiner John E. Smialek at a news conference June 24, 1986
Contrary evidence:
Court testimony of Terry Long, who claimed "Len Bias introduced me to coke," and portrayed Bias as a "courtesy middleman" in the drug trade. "One time he knocked on my door and he had a dollar bill and he said, 'Try this,'" Long told the court.
University of Maryland basketball star Len Bias, who died June 19 of a cocaine-induced heart attack, probably was not a first-time user of the drug, the state medical examiner said.
Why this matters:
So perhaps this is one of those wishful notions -- perpetuated by Len Bias' negative drug-test results (easily manipulated), and by the claims of friends and family, and by the medical examiner's initial opinion (later revised) that this might have, indeed, been Bias' first experience with cocaine -- that benefits everyone and harms no one. Perhaps, in burnishing a legend, the claims of Driesell and Lonise Bias (who still believes her son had never tried cocaine before, and might, in fact, have tried it accidentally, or even been poisoned that night) actually proved far more positive for society than the truth might have.
Still, I ask: Would Bias' story have achieved the same status as a cultural touchstone if we had known he -- while probably not a habitual user -- had dabbled in cocaine for months, or that his close friend was apparently dealing cocaine, or that the truth was far more nuanced than the mythology? Is there then something to be said, at least in this case, for a (seeming) lie proving far more powerful than the truth?"
The next reported rendition is a bit more colorful (street cred wise), but every bit as believable:
Lie #1 - The first was that Bias was not a drug user, that somehow this was his first time using cocaine. This was a steaming pantload. Besides the fact that the US Justice Department has called deaths such as Bias' "exceedingly rare" among first time users, the evidence established in a Maryland courtroom totally destroys the myth of 'First Time' Lenny ("Oh, gee, is that white pile over there cocaine? Think I could try a gram or five?").
The first piece of debunking evidence, established in the trial of the man who supplied the cocaine (a subsequently convicted major coke dealer named Brian Lee Tribble), was that, as mentioned above, Bias ingested a very large amount (3 to 5 grams) of cocaine. I spoke with some medical professionals I know and they unflinchingly confirmed what any fool should suspect: a guy simply cannot inhale a mountain of cocaine unless he has built up a tolerance over time and through chronic use. There is no question, then, based on the amount ingested on that night by Bias, that he was a world class blowmeister. (Indeed, when Tribble told Bias to slow down because he was snorting too much Bias laughingly replied "I'm a bad mother****er! I can handle anything!" The words of a one time user?) Another debunking fact established in the Tribble trial was that Tribble was a "longtime friend" of Bias (indeed, it was he and Bias together who brought the coke over and woke up the others involved and invited them to partake). How many people do you know that are simultaneously (a) friends with a major coke dealer and (b) not riding the train? I'll answer that for you: Zero!
Last edited by slapshot; 05-19-2012 at 05:20 PM.
Member
Wow dude! Are you really wrapped that tight? You use sources when they suit and otherwise label and categorize. Try to be a bit less defensive and a bit more open minded. I think you'll be happier. And ease up on the dissection and lecturing. I'm surprised you didn't type in caps. By the way, at what point did you go off the deep end? My comments were not completely in disagreement with you. I just felt extremism on either side needed a bit of tempering.
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