Is this team better than the 2005 team?

[Ravens75]

I clicked on this thread hoping to answer the OP's question but instead we have a few posters who's only interest is to berate another poster who stated his opinion just like they did.

I know slide is not perfect and have disagreed with him in the past but the constant torrent of criticism is unwarranted. I too have grown incredibly frustrated with the O's and rightfully so I might add. I do think though that this years team has some heart and fight in it but so did the 2002 team who at one point was 63-63 only to finish 4-32. Still though I think they'll be competitive all the way to the end and we'll see where it takes them.

BTW, you know this is a case study of a personal attack on slide. If this board had a mod some of these guys would at least be suspended.

[Softbank Orioles]

I clicked on this thread hoping to answer the OP's question but instead we have a few posters who's only interest is to berate another poster who stated his opinion just like they did.

I know slide is not perfect and have disagreed with him in the past but the constant torrent of criticism is unwarranted. I too have grown incredibly frustrated with the O's and rightfully so I might add. I do think though that this years team has some heart and fight in it but so did the 2002 team who at one point was 63-63 only to finish 4-32. Still though I think they'll be competitive all the way to the end and we'll see where it takes them.

BTW, you know this is a case study of a personal attack on slide. If this board had a mod some of these guys would at least be suspended.

We have a mod who, for some reason, lacks suspension privileges.

[85Knight]

That's a sad commentary on this forum in recent days. I used to find Ghost Oriole and Travis as entertaining humorous extremes. And, folks used to state their cases with some level of conscience relative to the opinions and interests of their respondees.

Now, it seems to me over the last 10 days, those who predicted failure have heightened their aggressive rhetoric as if to say, if I can insult you enough, maybe I can somehow validate my view in spite of evidence to date refuting me.

The season ain't over yet, and I still don't think the playoffs are really viable but I do see signs of hope. A cleanup hitter finally, a shortstop who can really make plays and give the team occasional offense. A stellar bullpen with five guys who have ERAs under 3, and that does not include J Johnson. Chris Davis who seems on the verge of good things, a potential number one starter in Chen, a couple other starters in Gonzalez and Tillman who show some promise.

You know there are lots of things like that to give credit for but I see none of the suffix stroking Peacocks even marginally acknowledging any of that. When you back them into a corner, the final response is an over the top insult followed by the Angelos is a jerk, 14 years of failure mantra. I'm just tired of hearing that over and over again. It's a complete waste of time and serves no purpose other than to delude the writer into somehow thinking they are better than the other guy. Who has time for that kind of ego garbage?

Can someone please talk about who might be a decent offseason third base addition and possibly about how specific minor leaguers are doing beyond the big two? This team needs a few more pieces but everytime I make an inquiry, the naysayers redirect the subject into a front office failure discussion. BT might not talk baseball but those other guys really don't either.

You are exactly right. In the beginning I enjoyed dialogue with posters who I thought were genuinely apprehensive because it had been so long since the O's have won. Over the course of the season this has proven to be more than a little bit of skepticism. Now it's become a push to bash the team even when they are doing well and to be condescending towards anyone who's enjoying the team's success. If you don't have anything good to say about the team after they just won 2 of 3 from both the Yankees and Rays why even call yourself an O's fan? I really question if people like this would even go see the O's play. How would it be possible to cheer for a team that you have so much disdain for? With fans like this who needs enemies?

Here we are after 14 yrs. of losing 6 games over .500 and facing an important homestand and we still have people bashing the team with nothing positive to say. Maybe I'm missing something but I just don't get it. This isn't the kind of fandom I'm used to. If you don't have anything good to say about the team at this point you probably shouldn't say anything at all. To fans who are really cheering for the team to succeed that type of rhetoric is just annoying.

[Slidemaster]

You are exactly right. In the beginning I enjoyed dialogue with posters who I thought were genuinely apprehensive because it had been so long since the O's have won. Over the course of the season this has proven to be more than a little bit of skepticism. Now it's become a push to bash the team even when they are doing well and to be condescending towards anyone who's enjoying the team's success. If you don't have anything good to say about the team after they just won 2 of 3 from both the Yankees and Rays why even call yourself an O's fan? I really question if people like this would even go see the O's play. How would it be possible to cheer for a team that you have so much disdain for? With fans like this who needs enemies?

Here we are after 14 yrs. of losing 6 games over .500 and facing an important homestand and we still have people bashing the team with nothing positive to say. Maybe I'm missing something but I just don't get it. This isn't the kind of fandom I'm used to. If you don't have anything good to say about the team at this point you probably shouldn't say anything at all. To fans who are really cheering for the team to succeed that type of rhetoric is just annoying.

There's a difference between nothing good to say, and not yet believing. I said something good about the O's today. I don't yet believe this above .500 baseball is something to have confidence in.

[85Knight]

There's a difference between nothing good to say, and not yet believing. I said something good about the O's today. I don't yet believe this above .500 baseball is something to have confidence in.

When you constantly predict losses in the 1st inning and have nothing positive to say even at this point I truly question whether you're an O's fan or if you have another agenda. I can't help you with the believing part but you now come across as someone pulling for their failure. I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just calling it like I see it.

[Softbank Orioles]

You are exactly right. In the beginning I enjoyed dialogue with posters who I thought were genuinely apprehensive because it had been so long since the O's have won. Over the course of the season this has proven to be more than a little bit of skepticism. Now it's become a push to bash the team even when they are doing well and to be condescending towards anyone who's enjoying the team's success. If you don't have anything good to say about the team after they just won 2 of 3 from both the Yankees and Rays why even call yourself an O's fan? I really question if people like this would even go see the O's play. How would it be possible to cheer for a team that you have so much disdain for? With fans like this who needs enemies?

Here we are after 14 yrs. of losing 6 games over .500 and facing an important homestand and we still have people bashing the team with nothing positive to say. Maybe I'm missing something but I just don't get it. This isn't the kind of fandom I'm used to. If you don't have anything good to say about the team at this point you probably shouldn't say anything at all. To fans who are really cheering for the team to succeed that type of rhetoric is just annoying.

I understand your optimism and there's definitely optimism to be had. This is the best team we've had in a long time.

However, but you know as well as anyone that we don't have a 3rd basemen, 2nd basemen, or a left fielder. You know that our best pitcher is on the DL. You know that while Gonzo and Tillman have shown promise, we can't exactly say we can count on them yet. You know you can't trust Hunter to have a great start. You know that we just played an entire month under .500. You know that Wieters, Hardy, and Reynolds, who were supposed to be important cogs in the offense, have been mired in season long slumps. You know that we're first in the league in strike out, and we're last in steals.

Most importantly you know that 6 games over .500 can disappear in one calendar week and not mean a thing just as fast.

Some people on here are too negative, fine, but its really disingenuous to watch this team and say "you must be missing something"...because the holes are many and glaring.

I'm hoping we can ride this puppy into the playoffs, we still have a chance, but those holes are a threat to show up at any time and really prevent most people from being anymore than tentatively optimistic.

And buddy, if we went by the rules that if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all, there would be no fandom at all. Because there wasn't much good to say over the last 14 years.

All that said, Let's go win us some playoff games.

[85Knight]

I understand your optimism and there's definitely optimism to be had. This is the best team we've had in a long time.

However, but you know as well as anyone that we don't have a 3rd basemen, 2nd basemen, or a left fielder. You know that our best pitcher is on the DL. You know that while Gonzo and Tillman have shown promise, we can't exactly say we can count on them yet. You know you can't trust Hunter to have a great start. You know that we just played an entire month under .500. You know that Wieters, Hardy, and Reynolds, who were supposed to be important cogs in the offense, have been mired in season long slumps. You know that we're first in the league in strike out, and we're last in steals.

Most importantly you know that 6 games over .500 can disappear in one calendar week and not mean a thing just as fast.

Some people on here are too negative, fine, but its really disingenuous to watch this team and say "you must be missing something"...because the holes are many and glaring.

I'm hoping we can ride this puppy into the playoffs, we still have a chance, but those holes are a threat to show up at any time and really prevent most people from being anymore than tentatively optimistic.

And buddy, if we went by the rules that if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all, there would be no fandom at all. Because there wasn't much good to say over the last 14 years.

You are completely missing the point. I'm not talking about the teams strengths or weaknesses or making the playoffs. I'm talking about actually cheering for the team to win vs. hoping they lose so you can say I told you so. You all act is if you're scared to cheer for the O's because if they start to lose you're gonna look bad.

Newsflash. There are fans who go to games and cheer for teams that are losing in every sport all over the country. It's about being a fan. Listen to what you're saying. This team has faults, six games can disappear, etc. Who cares? Cheer for your team when they're doing well and hope that it continues. Why the negativity? If they don't make the playoffs or even finish over .500 it's not going to kill you. I can't imagine some of you standing and cheering for the team at Camden Yards. At this point you're either for the team or against it. I really don't see any middle ground.

[Slidemaster]

When you constantly predict losses in the 1st inning and have nothing positive to say even at this point I truly question whether you're an O's fan or if you have another agenda. I can't help you with the believing part but you now come across as someone pulling for their failure. I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just calling it like I see it.

http://talk.baltimoresun.com/showpos...9&postcount=28

[weenie]

Not only 3rd but 2nd also

I know you won't like this but Buck was quoted as saying he expected Roberts at 2nd next spring. If you add in Duquette's words about wanting Machado to stay in AA for a bit longer, it all adds up to Three options for '13

Roberts will be plan A, Andino plan B and at mid-season I'd expect Machado to become plan C if necessary. There might even be a plan D if Schoop has a good next 10 months between Bowie and Norfolk.

Having looked over the other teams rosters and prospects, I think the gaping hole will still be third in 2013 unless the O's pry Jedd Gyorko away from the Padres for Matusz and several additional prospects. Youklis would also be a consideration now that the White Sox have said they won't pick up his $13M option but I prefer to dream of Gyorko getting in town via trade. His numbers at Tucson are .333 BA, 17HR, 64 RBI in 294 AB and his defense is good, having started out as a shortstop in their system.

There are several guys who could fit in leftfield that might come from the free agent ranks. I like the idea of Bourn coming in and moving over to left. He's historically a solid leadoff hitter and if Roberts comes back, Brian is probably better suited to hit near the bottom of the lineup at this stage in his career. Bourn could get near 50 steals too.

We all know one top of the rotation guy needs to get added to augment Chen and Hammel. I think Shields might be a trade possibility there but I also think Liriano might be a free agent possibility. Then again, a guy like Fuasto Carmona might be set loose by Cleveland and available for a reasonable short term commitment. Frankly, adding Youklis, Liriano and Bourn via free agency would not break the bank and each would complement the current roster. None is a Josh Hamilton or Zack Greinke but those guys will break a bank ala Cliff Lee and the ripple could cripple.

This team is farther along then it has been in many years, and needing only a few additions (I think three) amongst the starting positions is a remarkable turnabout. A commitment of less than $25M in base salaries might be all that's needed to get into the next level as Bundy and Machado grow. That would still keep the payroll under $100M and there would be room thereafter to compete for Wieters too when guys like Roberts retire or move on.

[85Knight]

http://talk.baltimoresun.com/showpos...9&postcount=28

And you really think that's a glowing endorsement of the team or Duquette? When you start out with the word "atleast" the tone of what you're saying is already negative. I won't be spending my time explaining obvious jabs at the team that are then twisted into something else. The team just came off a great road trip and has a ten game homestand against 3 losing teams. If you can't find some reason to be excited about this team instead of repeatedly predicting doom I can't help you. If you don't piss on my parade then I won't criticize your "fandom" and we can just leave it at that.

[Slidemaster]

And you really think that's a glowing endorsement of the team or Duquette? When you start out with the word "atleast" the tone of what you're saying is already negative. I won't be spending my time explaining obvious jabs at the team that are then twisted into something else. The team just came off a great road trip and has a ten game homestand against 3 losing teams. If you can't find some reason to be excited about this team instead of repeatedly predicting doom I can't help you. If you don't piss on my parade then I won't criticize your "fandom" and we can just leave it at that.

I can't help if what I say "pisses on your parade" or not. If you want to be absolutely sure that nothing I say offends you, just put me on ignore. However, don't try to tell me that I have absolutely nothing good to say about the team, because I have said good things about the team. I just don't believe yet.

[weenie]

I can't help if what I say "pisses on your parade" or not. If you want to be absolutely sure that nothing I say offends you, just put me on ignore. However, don't try to tell me that I have absolutely nothing good to say about the team, because I have said good things about the team. I just don't believe yet.

I think the problem rests with the belief apparently on your part that a "left handed compliment" is a compliment.

[85Knight]

I know you won't like this but Buck was quoted as saying he expected Roberts at 2nd next spring. If you add in Duquette's words about wanting Machado to stay in AA for a bit longer, it all adds up to Three options for '13

Roberts will be plan A, Andino plan B and at mid-season I'd expect Machado to become plan C if necessary. There might even be a plan D if Schoop has a good next 10 months between Bowie and Norfolk.

Having looked over the other teams rosters and prospects, I think the gaping hole will still be third in 2013 unless the O's pry Jedd Gyorko away from the Padres for Matusz and several additional prospects. Youklis would also be a consideration now that the White Sox have said they won't pick up his $13M option but I prefer to dream of Gyorko getting in town via trade. His numbers at Tucson are .333 BA, 17HR, 64 RBI in 294 AB and his defense is good, having started out as a shortstop in their system.

There are several guys who could fit in leftfield that might come from the free agent ranks. I like the idea of Bourn coming in and moving over to left. He's historically a solid leadoff hitter and if Roberts comes back, Brian is probably better suited to hit near the bottom of the lineup at this stage in his career. Bourn could get near 50 steals too.

We all know one top of the rotation guy needs to get added to augment Chen and Hammel. I think Shields might be a trade possibility there but I also think Liriano might be a free agent possibility. Then again, a guy like Fuasto Carmona might be set loose by Cleveland and available for a reasonable short term commitment. Frankly, adding Youklis, Liriano and Bourn via free agency would not break the bank and each would complement the current roster. None is a Josh Hamilton or Zack Greinke but those guys will break a bank ala Cliff Lee and the ripple could cripple.

This team is farther along then it has been in many years, and needing only a few additions (I think three) amongst the starting positions is a remarkable turnabout. A commitment of less than $25M in base salaries might be all that's needed to get into the next level as Bundy and Machado grow. That would still keep the payroll under $100M and there would be room thereafter to compete for Wieters too when guys like Roberts retire or move on.

Very good points and my thoughts exactly. That's why I didn't want to even spend $3 million on Blanton. I'd rather use that to go after a bonified top of the rotation starter, maybe now we can offer up $12 mil instead of 9.

This has been a great season and making the payoffs would be great but I don't think we should hamper what we can do in the offseason. Finishing .500 would be enough to inject some enthusiasm into this franchise and might even change the way upper management thinks. Three or four legitimate additions in the offseason and we can really get excited next year.

[Softbank Orioles]

You are completely missing the point. I'm not talking about the teams strengths or weaknesses or making the playoffs. I'm talking about actually cheering for the team to win vs. hoping they lose so you can say I told you so. You all act is if you're scared to cheer for the O's because if they start to lose you're gonna look bad.

Newsflash. There are fans who go to games and cheer for teams that are losing in every sport all over the country. It's about being a fan. Listen to what you're saying. This team has faults, six games can disappear, etc. Who cares? Cheer for your team when they're doing well and hope that it continues. Why the negativity? If they don't make the playoffs or even finish over .500 it's not going to kill you. I can't imagine some of you standing and cheering for the team at Camden Yards. At this point you're either for the team or against it. I really don't see any middle ground.

I think you have me confused with someone else.

[weenie]

Very good points and my thoughts exactly. That's why I didn't want to even spend $3 million on Blanton. I'd rather use that to go after a bonified top of the rotation starter, maybe now we can offer up $12 mil instead of 9.

This has been a great season and making the payoffs would be great but I don't think we should hamper what we can do in the offseason. Finishing .500 would be enough to inject some enthusiasm into this franchise and might even change the way upper management thinks. Three or four legitimate additions in the offseason and we can really get excited next year.

It's all very promising, especially when you look at the ages of the guys in key positions. One of the sporting periodicals did an extensive study last spring of baseball careers over the last fifty years and an overwhelming statistical conclusion was that the majority of players perform best at age 27

If that statistic holds true in Baltimore, Strop, Wieters, Davis, Chen, Patton and Jones should be at their peaks in 2013. That's a pretty nice nucleus to work with no matter what happens in 2012. Sure would be nice if some folks at least gave that some consideration.

[Slidemaster]

I think the problem rests with the belief apparently on your part that a "left handed compliment" is a compliment.

I'm sorry, but I can't be held responsible for how other people choose to interpret my comments. I say what I mean to say, and that's all I can do.

[weenie]

I'm sorry, but I can't be held responsible for how other people choose to interpret my comments. I say what I mean to say, and that's all I can do.

Surprise! A left handed response on your part. You crack me up with how you qualify any attempt made to move toward a middle ground.

It must really grate on you to express any humility toward others. I now get where you are coming from. It's really kind of sad though. You have all this passion toward something you obviously enjoy but your level of intolerance toward others just fuels so much hostility.

I think much of what you have to say is interesting and informative but you pepper it with such aggressive vitriol that the information often gets buried beneath the meanness. I know you attract some folks to that kind of angry preaching but are those really the kind of people you admire? Maybe so. Who knows.

I just think you're too smart a guy to waste so much time being angry and negative. I don't expect you to change, but I hope we can agree at times to disagree without threatening each other or insulting the other's intellect as much as has happened in recent days.

[Slidemaster]

Surprise! A left handed response on your part. You crack me up with how you qualify any attempt made to move toward a middle ground.

It must really grate on you to express any humility toward others. I now get where you are coming from. It's really kind of sad though. You have all this passion toward something you obviously enjoy but your level of intolerance toward others just fuels so much hostility.

I think much of what you have to say is interesting and informative but you pepper it with such aggressive vitriol that the information often gets buried beneath the meanness. I know you attract some folks to that kind of angry preaching but are those really the kind of people you admire? Maybe so. Who knows.

I just think you're too smart a guy to waste so much time being angry and negative. I don't expect you to change, but I hope we can agree at times to disagree without threatening each other or insulting the other's intellect as much as has happened in recent days.

The only time I'm not civil is if someone goes there first with me. I really don't know where all this aggressive vitriol you're talking about is coming from, but I'm not nearly as angry or intolerant as you seem to believe.

[Jimmy Jazz]

I'm not sure if they are better on a player for player level although I strongly suspect they will finish with a better record than the '05 team. On the other hand the division is weaker which has made it easier. And the game is just different now with steroid testing.

[hector]

Just got back from business in Switzeland and decided to check in. This thread is quite an argument about Slidemaster's views of the 2012 Orioles. Thinking clearly and logically, there are only three points to be made about Slidemaster's views:

1. Slidemaster predicted only 53 wins for the O's this season;

2. Bazooka Joe, who predicted 40 wins, was the only poster predicting fewer than 53 wins this season;

3. Of all the posters who made pre-season predictions, Slidemaster's was the second worst which demonstrates he's in the bottom two when it comes to foreseeing the O's great improvement this season.


Let's be kind and humble and admit that Slidemaster does his best but he's just not well informed on baseball matters. Give the guy a break - at least he tries.