Belief In God Plummets Among Youth

[SomeIdiot]

What you wish for would require that we be less than Human. IMO, religious belief comes from the same well that supplies us with creativity and interests in things like art, music, literature, design, exploration..

I think that's a very valid point. Personal spirituality is an essentially human thing. We'd be a much less interesting species without it.

Of course I also have a very strong distaste for the fanaticism and militancy that religiousness tends to breed among less reflective people and often find myself politically opposed to its manifestations.

Hence my ambivalence towards religion, including the one I was brought up in.

[BeHereNow]

That is a misconception.

Buddhism has as a major foundation that all of what we perceive as existence is in actuality an illusion .

This is further distilled by Buddhism to different layers

1. The Saha world -- (you cant grab a rose because of the thorns) -- basically that the world we see is an illusion, and paradoxically we cannot see nirvana because of the attachment to the singular aspect of self or ego.

2. Nirvana - absence of delusion (caused by craving, attachment, etc)

These show the great influence of Hinduism, especially that of Brahman.

Brahman is the great all. Both with self and simultaneously without self and simultaneously beyond the concept of self .

One can sucessfully argue, that the aspects of "self", not-self", and selfless, are impurities caused by illusion/delusion (not-truth).

Once "one" frees the "self" from the bondage of illusion, the "self that is not-self and selfless" can see the truth.

The new being contains a much greater whole, while the illusion of "self" ceases to exist.

Many buddhists argue that the concept of Brahman is absent in Buddhism, many others will argue it is implied.

The tree in my front yard exits, the Buddha would agree.
The tree in my front yard is in the process of change, all things are temporal.
The tree that is there today, will not be the tree that is there tomorrow, it will have changed.


~ ~ ~
On Illusion
Similar to “emptiness” the Buddhist idea regarding the illusionary nature of existence is also open to potential misinterpretation. What is meant when something is said to be illusionary? What is an illusion? An illusion occurs when one thing is made to seem like another. In psychology an illusion is a perception that represents what is perceived in a way different from the way it is in reality.

So when it is said that existence is illusionary it does not mean something like that in reality nothing exists at all. Rather, it means that existence is commonly experienced or perceived as being a certain way and this is an illusion and different from the way things actually are. Not that there is an empty void where reality appears to be.
~ ~

When the see-er and the seen become one, there is no illusion.

When a blade of grass is plucked from the meadow, the frog in the pond croaks.

All is one, there is no illusion.

[The Astute Reader(tm)]

Smokey stated that we know people can't fly.

How is that? Because we have observed people not flying, thats why - many times. Absence of evidence.

This is where the wheels fall off of your argument. There is an abundance of positive evidence that people cannot fly - as evidenced by the large numbers of people who have plummeted to their deaths in one way or another. And I can test the fact that gravity does not suspend itself for me - as evidenced any and every time I jump off the bottom step to the sidewalk.

So I have abundant, positive, empirically testable evidence that I cannot fly. Where is your abundant, positive, empirically testable evidence that God does not exist?

The truth of the matter is you posses nothing other than a belief. Stop trying to obfuscate that fact with a mountain of fractured and often faulty logic and just admit to the truth. It would be refreshing!

[gonzoliberal]

Oh, c'mon, folks.

You can't prove a negative. Any negative.

Have you fallen off "faith" and gone to "belief" now?

I believe I'll have another toke...

[karlydee]

This is where the wheels fall off of your argument. There is an abundance of positive evidence that people cannot fly - as evidenced by the large numbers of people who have plummeted to their deaths in one way or another. And I can test the fact that gravity does not suspend itself for me - as evidenced any and every time I jump off the bottom step to the sidewalk.

So I have abundant, positive, empirically testable evidence that I cannot fly. Where is your abundant, positive, empirically testable evidence that God does not exist?

The truth of the matter is you posses nothing other than a belief. Stop trying to obfuscate that fact with a mountain of fractured and often faulty logic and just admit to the truth. It would be refreshing!

No wheels fell off.

All the evidence that you have is that people that fall and hit the ground going terminal velocity tend to die, (but not always) . Your evidence does not actually prove that people can't fly. It shows a strong likelihood, but it does not prove it.

According to you Supernatural Deities possibly exist. therefore it is possible that a (any) supernatural deity may decide to suspend gravity -- or grant me a boon. In fact, people may actually be able to fly, but there is a sneaky deity that prevents people from flying b/c he's a prick.

Once you allow for the existence of any supernatural being that can violate the laws of physics, time, etc; you can never be sure of your observations or the laws of physics again . ANd if a god can't A-$-$ rape the laws of physics, it isn't much of a god now is it?

I don't have to offer proof of non-existence. If your argument is sound, then the Invisible Pink Unicorn is just as likely to have created the universe as GOD. The same goes for any supernatural being you can name, or that people can think of, not to mention that there are about 5 billion versions of GOD floating around out there.

What that means it that the likelihood of any one of them actually existing is so close to zero it doesn't matter , and the likelihood that one of them actually created the universe is even less.


Where is your abundant, positive, empirically testable evidence that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does not exist?

In fact, where is your abundant, positive, empirically testable evidence that I didn't create the Universe? Were you there?

You can no more prove that I did not create the Universe, than you can prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster (pasta be upon him) didn't create the Universe.

Do you have faith that I did not create the Universe?
Do you have faith that the Flying Spaghetti Monster didn't create the Universe?
Do you have faith that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist?

That's where your argument fails on it's faith err face.

[SomeIdiot]

Oh, c'mon, folks.

You can't prove a negative. Any negative.

Have you fallen off "faith" and gone to "belief" now?

I believe I'll have another toke...

I second that.

[Rintrah]

Let's first be clear on what we mean by "objective reality", because as we've seen, your perception, your definitions can be quite different from mine.

When we talk about "objective reality", we are talking about the world that's really there, unfiltered, outside your mind. Our beliefs do not change the world, except to the extent that they lead to actions that alter reality. So I can, if I try hard enough, go around all day sincerely believing things like "That blue ball is actually an orange artichoke" or "There's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day". But if those things are not correct statements about the real world, then no amount of belief will change that.

Not everything around us, but many things, can and have been thoroughly explained by modern scientific techniques, by many independent observers, at multiple vantage points in time and space. Objective reality of the physical world, relies on repeatibility and independent measurements of our universe. These measurements provide a probability, a confidence level, if you will, that our objective reality of something, or an event, is valid and accurate.

No such measurements, or objectivity exists to provide any probability regarding the existence of God. God is 100% based on faith, which comes exclusively from the mind. I recognized, as does Steven Hawkings, that man (science) can not disprove the existence of God. For example, the objective reality of the Earth orbiting around the Sun, is not comparable to you believing in God. They are not the same thing, nor will they ever be.

It's all about the probability, or our confidence level that something or some event is real. You can believe all you want that God is real, but if it's not true, your beliefs won't change the objective reality of there being a God....and as far as I am concerned, there is no credible and verifiable evidence to assign a confidence level to the existence of a God. That's all. But we can still believe.

Like this guy, I can still believe, but not subscribe to religion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhD...e_gdata_player

To define to his people what he was talking about when he spoke of God, Moses said that God called Himself "I am". He was defining God as that which is. Okay? Now, if God is "that which is," how can anyone without sounding like a simpleton say that "that which is" does not exist? Regardless of what you were mistakenly taught, God is not "an invisible man living in the sky watching everything you do." And, yes, some people have portrayed God that way and they use the name of God in other ways for selfish means. But you can't go by what false hearted people say and dismiss what good hearted people say about God.

[5four321]

Some folks are determined to reject the message of Jesus. There are many reasons why this is true, but they all boil down to one truth -- Satan has poisoned their hearts to the good news of God's Kingdom in Jesus Christ. Rather than keep beating our heads against a wall that the evil one has erected in the heart of someone, God calls us to move on in our efforts to reach others.

Jesus said, "If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet. This will be a warning to them."
Luke 9:3-5

[slapshot]

Some folks are determined to reject the message of Jesus. There are many reasons why this is true, but they all boil down to one truth -- Satan has poisoned their hearts to the good news of God's Kingdom in Jesus Christ. Rather than keep beating our heads against a wall that the evil one has erected in the heart of someone, God calls us to move on in our efforts to reach others.

Jesus said, "If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet. This will be a warning to them."
Luke 9:3-5

What about the billion or so people that have never heard of Jesus? Did Satan poison their hearts?

[slapshot]

To define to his people what he was talking about when he spoke of God, Moses said that God called Himself "I am". He was defining God as that which is. Okay? Now, if God is "that which is," how can anyone without sounding like a simpleton say that "that which is" does not exist? Regardless of what you were mistakenly taught, God is not "an invisible man living in the sky watching everything you do." And, yes, some people have portrayed God that way and they use the name of God in other ways for selfish means. But you can't go by what false hearted people say and dismiss what good hearted people say about God.

You speak gibberish.

God did not speak to Moses, or visa versa. There is no proof of a God, so to say that God spoke to anyone is faith, not proof. It most certainly isn't "objective reality", which is what you asked about.

Try again.

[5four321]

What about the billion or so people that have never heard of Jesus? Did Satan poison their hearts?

It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

Romans 14:11

[slapshot]

It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

Romans 14:11

It might be written, but it never happened. Because of Satan?

Here is what's real.

It is spoken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPvQY...e_gdata_player

[Rintrah]

You speak gibberish.

God did not speak to Moses, or visa versa. There is no proof of a God, so to say that God spoke to anyone is faith, not proof. It most certainly isn't "objective reality", which is what you asked about.

Try again.

Sorry, I can't do any more for you. You can't get past your mistaken concept of the nature of God. And you seem incapable of grasping the concept of personification. It's a literary device in which one attributes human qualities to other phenomena in order to teach a lesson to other humans. In this instance Moses is giving Existence ther power of speech. You know the serpent didn't talk to Eve either. When you can see beyond the surface to the meaning behind it, then you'll finally see. Until then, you can continue trying to convince whomever you want that there is no proof of Existence.

[slapshot]

Even if you don't believe what Hawkings has to say, I would encourage the religious faithful to watch this video. It's well done and easy to understand.

Open your mind...God would want you to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQhd0...e_gdata_player

[slapshot]

Sorry, I can't do any more for you. You can't get past your mistaken concept of the nature of God. An dyou seem incapable of grasping the concept of personification. It's a literary device in which one attributes human qualities to other phenomena in order to teach a lesson to other humans. In this instance Moses is giving Existence ther power of speech. You know the serpent didn't talk to Eve either. When you can see beyond the surface to the meaning behind it, then you'll finally see. Until then, you can continue trying to convince whomever you want that there is no proof of Existence.

You can't do any more for me?? Now there's a laugh. .

I don't seek your help. You knee to a false profit, and I feel sorry for you.

Open you mind to objective reality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQhd0...e_gdata_player

[5four321]

On February 26, 2012 just after signing a full four year college scholarship to play football at Alabama State University (ASU) our son passed away from a (DVT) blood clot that reached his lungs while waiting to be cared for after arriving by ambulance for two hours in the ER. Our son was 17 years old, 6’7″, and played offensive line at DeMATHA Catholic High School. As Father Day approaches I weep. You’ll in a better place I heard a thousand times. But the reason why I am broken is how long must I want to be with you. For 17 years I tucked my gentle giant in the bed and kissed him on his forehead goodnight. Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.” John 11: 25-26. So we hold onto Jesus precious promise that my wife and I will see our son again. Our son last post on Facebook just prior to him getting ill that night was in all caps “I LOVE GOD”. This was Jesus greatest commandment. My son told me a few times that he was so much more than football. I understand now what he meant. He was an Ambassador of God. Four days later after my son death while getting a haircut and weeping in the barber’s chair, a family who was waiting to get their sons haircut said, “Rico it’s time to get your haircut”. I replied and said, “Rico that’s my son’s name”. I ask the mother, “What was her son’s full name”? She replied, “Rico Recardo Webb II”. I replied, “That’s my son’s full name”! Also at the same time a song was playing throughout the barbershop that was my wife, my son, and I special song. This was a message from God that was delivered loud and clear. Your son Rico is here with me! The barbers have told me to this day that they have never seen the couple again. Were they Angels? Five ASU coaches flew from the state of Alabama to Maryland to honor their prize recruit and present me with his football jersey he would never get to where. Our son Rico received a full police escort to his estate resting place where my wife and I will be buried at someday. I visit my son everyday at his resting place. One day as I prayed and cried about my son’s unnecessary death asking god for help, a tall white 6’5″ well dress gentleman walked past my sons resting place smiled and said hello. Ten seconds later I turned around to see what direction he was walking to and he vanished that quickly. I called my sister to tell her about what had just happen. My sister replied, “That was an angel from God letting you know I hear your prayers”. Fifteen minutes later I received a call from the FBI informing me that they believe my sons civil rights were violated and they will begin a full investigation into our son’s death. God is amazing! Jesus will tuck my son into bed and kiss him on his forehead for me! Trust in the lord with all your heart. Click on links below to see who my son was.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/03...nt--73342.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=La2Mo9t33kc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=y353KwfS7Ck

[slapshot]

I'm very sorry for your loss, but this is what I believe. Everyone should believe what fits them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQhd0...e_gdata_player

[bmore_ken]

On February 26, 2012 just after signing a full four year college scholarship to play football at Alabama State University (ASU) our son passed away from a (DVT) blood clot that reached his lungs while waiting to be cared for after arriving by ambulance for two hours in the ER. Our son was 17 years old, 6’7″, and played offensive line at DeMATHA Catholic High School. As Father Day approaches I weep. You’ll in a better place I heard a thousand times. But the reason why I am broken is how long must I want to be with you. For 17 years I tucked my gentle giant in the bed and kissed him on his forehead goodnight. Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.” John 11: 25-26. So we hold onto Jesus precious promise that my wife and I will see our son again. Our son last post on Facebook just prior to him getting ill that night was in all caps “I LOVE GOD”. This was Jesus greatest commandment. My son told me a few times that he was so much more than football. I understand now what he meant. He was an Ambassador of God. Four days later after my son death while getting a haircut and weeping in the barber’s chair, a family who was waiting to get their sons haircut said, “Rico it’s time to get your haircut”. I replied and said, “Rico that’s my son’s name”. I ask the mother, “What was her son’s full name”? She replied, “Rico Recardo Webb II”. I replied, “That’s my son’s full name”! Also at the same time a song was playing throughout the barbershop that was my wife, my son, and I special song. This was a message from God that was delivered loud and clear. Your son Rico is here with me! The barbers have told me to this day that they have never seen the couple again. Were they Angels? Five ASU coaches flew from the state of Alabama to Maryland to honor their prize recruit and present me with his football jersey he would never get to where. Our son Rico received a full police escort to his estate resting place where my wife and I will be buried at someday. I visit my son everyday at his resting place. One day as I prayed and cried about my son’s unnecessary death asking god for help, a tall white 6’5″ well dress gentleman walked past my sons resting place smiled and said hello. Ten seconds later I turned around to see what direction he was walking to and he vanished that quickly. I called my sister to tell her about what had just happen. My sister replied, “That was an angel from God letting you know I hear your prayers”. Fifteen minutes later I received a call from the FBI informing me that they believe my sons civil rights were violated and they will begin a full investigation into our son’s death. God is amazing! Jesus will tuck my son into bed and kiss him on his forehead for me! Trust in the lord with all your heart. Click on links below to see who my son was.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/03...nt--73342.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=La2Mo9t33kc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=y353KwfS7Ck

You mean angels are 6'5"?

[BeHereNow]

No wheels fell off.

All the evidence that you have is that people that fall and hit the ground going terminal velocity tend to die, (but not always) . Your evidence does not actually prove that people can't fly. It shows a strong likelihood, but it does not prove it.

According to you Supernatural Deities possibly exist. therefore it is possible that a (any) supernatural deity may decide to suspend gravity -- or grant me a boon. In fact, people may actually be able to fly, but there is a sneaky deity that prevents people from flying b/c he's a prick.

Once you allow for the existence of any supernatural being that can violate the laws of physics, time, etc; you can never be sure of your observations or the laws of physics again . ANd if a god can't A-$-$ rape the laws of physics, it isn't much of a god now is it?

I don't have to offer proof of non-existence. If your argument is sound, then the Invisible Pink Unicorn is just as likely to have created the universe as GOD. The same goes for any supernatural being you can name, or that people can think of, not to mention that there are about 5 billion versions of GOD floating around out there.

What that means it that the likelihood of any one of them actually existing is so close to zero it doesn't matter , and the likelihood that one of them actually created the universe is even less.


Where is your abundant, positive, empirically testable evidence that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does not exist?

In fact, where is your abundant, positive, empirically testable evidence that I didn't create the Universe? Were you there?

You can no more prove that I did not create the Universe, than you can prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster (pasta be upon him) didn't create the Universe.

Do you have faith that I did not create the Universe?
Do you have faith that the Flying Spaghetti Monster didn't create the Universe?
Do you have faith that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist?

That's where your argument fails on it's faith err face.

There is a difference between 'proof', and what a reasonable person would believe.

In science, there is no 'scientific proof' for anything.
There is always a shadow of a doubt, of anything.

However, in science there is often so much evidence, it compels a reasonable person to say 'There is no reasonable doubt this is true (or not true).
It is that way with people flying.
There is so much evidence that that people cannot fly, no reasonable person would think they can. Not proof mind you, not absolute certainty, just certainity beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you believe things that are not reasonable, you are not thinking reasonably.
Did you create the universe?
I have no reasonable doubt that you did not, I am a reasonable person.
~ ~

Not all of us get our knowledge from science.
I, for one, value personal experience.

I do not need a scientific study to tell me how mangos taste.
Now a scientist, she can do a scientific study, write a paper, have it published, and never even eaten a mango.
That is the way it is with science.
Personal experience is considered questionalbe. It needs to be supported with measurements, with controlled tests, with peer review.

If science lacks these things, scientists say, 'Well, maybe yes, maybe no, who can say.'

If I say 'I experienced this thing.' Science says 'So what. Where is yout scientific evidence? Your experiences are just heresay, with little value.'
If I say, 'But there were many people with me, and on other ocassions, in other places, people had similar experiences.' Science says, 'No scientific evidence, no reasonable belief.'

~ ~

It has happened over the course of modern science, that scientists listened to accounts of people, and declared, 'Not reasonable. We were not there, but we have examined the scientific evidence, and a reasonable person would not believe such a thing can be (based on the scientific evidence, or lack thereof).'

In some of these cases, science (or should I say the scientists) was/were wrong, and later recanted.
What personal experience said was a real event, the scientists said not reasonably possible.

One notable example is the event of rogue waves.
Sailors had been telling of rogue waves for decades, probably hundred of years.
Early in the twentieth century a noted explorer (a scientist of sorts), Ernest Shackleton, experienced a rogue wave, and wrote a detailed account of it, but scientists told him he was mistaken. Such wave motion was not reasonably possible.

Later, with the developemnt of computers, and the use of computer models to be considered as 'experiments', rogue waves were again investigated, studied, and still the same conclusion, not reasonably possible.

It took nearly 3 generations (75 years) for the accounts of Shackleton (and hundreds of sailors and mariners), to be vindicated. Eventually science, that is scientists, were able to verify these personal experiences as true to a near certainity.

~ ~
I cerainly value science, and the work of scientists.

Eventually they get it right. It may take decades, or centuries, or milleniums, but eventually they will get there.
With some things, human experience gets it immediately, in an instant, and much later, the scientists agree.

If I have an experience, I do not need science to tell me if it is probably true, or probably not true, I experienced it, and 'know' it is true. You may disagree, and say my experiences are not valid, but I will not accept your judgement.

Once you allow for the existence of any supernatural being that can violate the laws of physics, time, etc; you can never be sure of your observations or the laws of physics again . ANd if a god can't A-$-$ rape the laws of physics, it isn't much of a god now is it?

Well Einstein disagrees with you.
He would not declare that he was reasonably certain that there was no god.
He made this very clear, he was no Atheist.
And yet, contrary to your logic, he was sure of his observations of the laws of physics.
He saw no conflict.
You may be a very intelligent person, but my money is on Einstein as having the greater intellect, and sound logic.

I don't have to offer proof of non-existence. If your argument is sound, then the Invisible Pink Unicorn is just as likely to have created the universe as GOD.

Millions of people have had the experience of 'knowing' (believing beyond a reasonable doubt) that the universe was created by god.
Conversely, few (if any) people have had the experience of believing an IPU created the universe.

If we value human experience, it is much more likely that a supernatural god created the universe, and no IPU.
It is not 'just as likely', unless we accept only scientific evidence. The same type of scientific evidence that denied rogue waves.
The same scientific evidence that says it cannot study the supernatural, because science concerns itself with the natural world.

Certainly many people believing something to be true does not make it true.
It does however increase the possibility of it being true.
Circumstantial evidence has sent men to their death, it is no small matter.

I do not need you, or any person to validate my experiences.
I am confident you do not need religion to validate your beliefs, and for others, they do not need science to validate theirs.

Your belief that you have found a portal to what is true, is unsubstantiated.
Your belief system is self supporting, as is to be expected.
It suits your purpose, and that is sufficient.
It is the same with my belief system, and all of us.

[BeHereNow]

slapshot says “It's all about the probability, or our confidence level that something or some event is real. You can believe all you want that God is real, but if it's not true, your beliefs won't change the objective reality of there being a God....and as far as I am concerned, there is no credible and verifiable evidence to assign a confidence level to the existence of a God. That's all. But we can still believe.”

Yes, there’s the rub (in bold).
What measure do you use to determine ‘credible’ and ‘verifiable’.
If we know that, we will know much. But, they need to be explained. You may think they stand on their own, need no explanation. You would be wrong.

Because they need to be explained, we know they have several meanings. Because of this your meaning may be different than my meaning.
They have no objective value.
They are merely subjective code, for some idea or concept.
They mean, what the speaker and the listeners believe them to mean.
Regardless of what you say they mean, your observation, and explanation, is subjective.

So we see that you base your objective observations, on subjective terms.
Why would you get to define what is acceptable, credible, verifiable evidence?
Because it is your belief system that you are using.

You have beliefs that are unverifiable, by the standards of competing belief systems.
Your beliefs are true, as demonstrated by your belief system. That is circular logic.

You say probability is paramount.
Why?
Because that is what you believe.
I believe experience is paramount.
Experience trumps probability every time in my belief system.

~ ~ ~
I would also refer you to the reference to rogue waves in the above post.