Red States, Blue States

[can you hear me now!]

One hears this 'country first' meme quite a bit... what does it mean (in specifics)?

it means that we are one country with a diverse population with diverse views and values..that means accepting that people are not always going to think the way you do...it means that we the people are allowed to choose the government and be expected to live with the results while continuing to do what is best for us and the country...it also means looking in the mirror occasionally and reminding oneself that we aren't perfect...it means that having the worlds best stockpile of weapons isn't going to help when your populace is uneducated and is satisfied with that..it means looking in the mirror and asking how come we have the most wealth, but also have the most people in prison...

this country was built by immigrants..."Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,"...now the descendants of these people want to reverse that....it's that whole melting pot concept that used to be taught in schools years ago...

I believe the best quote to use when you see idiots throwing up there arms and swearing its the end of the country is from Franklin 'Gentlemen we must all hang together or we shall most assuredly all hang separately'

this country has a history of discord and disagreement..we've seen what happens when a country is divided against itself many times and have seen the results of when you pit brother against brother...it was bloody and it was deadly ...we've moved forward from that to evolve into a more enlightened society

today the country is facing something new-- the days of the white majority is coming to an end...that is making many uneasy, it's causing quite a bit of cognitive dissonance.....

listen to those on the right who recognize this...they get it...It's not the end of the world, it's the beginning of a new chapter yet to be finished...

[dsummoner]

it means that we are one country with a diverse population with diverse views and values..that means accepting that people are not always going to think the way you do...it means that we the people are allowed to choose the government and be expected to live with the results while continuing to do what is best for us and the country...it also means looking in the mirror occasionally and reminding oneself that we aren't perfect...it means that having the worlds best stockpile of weapons isn't going to help when your populace is uneducated and is satisfied with that..it means looking in the mirror and asking how come we have the most wealth, but also have the most people in prison...

The difference regarding ideas is both acceptable and should be encouraged. Doing best 'for the country' is subject to extensive debate arising from this difference regarding ideas and by no means is unitary. There were a distinct set of ideals upon which this country was founded (and has since strayed away from). Simply going along with the political agenda of the face of big government that was selected is antithetical to these ideals. In this vein, the responsibility for educating (I use this term very loosely in regards to the government educational system) should lie with those that have made those who need to be educated. It should not serve as a basis for collectivism or making a mockery of the concept of property ownership.

this country was built by immigrants..."Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,"...now the descendants of these people want to reverse that....it's that whole melting pot concept that used to be taught in schools years ago...

The US can ill-afford any additional tired and hungry masses nor does either the manufacturing sector or the services sector require masses of brute labor. The lack of necessity for such labor coupled with the welfare state makes no fiscal sense when it comes to importing foreign poverty into the country. The reality of the so-called melting pot is quite different than the peacey, tolerancey and acceptancey revisionism that one oft sees.

I believe the best quote to use when you see idiots throwing up there arms and swearing its the end of the country is from Franklin 'Gentlemen we must all hang together or we shall most assuredly all hang separately'

One should not confuse nation with state or country. Each term has distinct meaning (one oft sees this confusion in regards to the terms nation building and state building). On national identity, the populace has not only been cloven but such cleaving is actively encouraged (the insert special race based identity groups are but one example). Such fragmentation is by no means unique to modernity (e.g. slavery, separate but equal and the actual history of immigration). As far as the state goes, the path to Reset is already cemented.

this country has a history of discord and disagreement..we've seen what happens when a country is divided against itself many times and have seen the results of when you pit brother against brother...it was bloody and it was deadly ...we've moved forward from that to evolve into a more enlightened society

Discord and disagreement is more apt than the melting pot.

As far as 'enlightened' goes, I will respectively have to disagree. Indolence, factual ignorance, vapidity (celebritard worship inclusive of the political sphere) coupled with a mechanism (government) for nurturing all three are not characteristic of enlightenment.

today the country is facing something new-- the days of the white majority is coming to an end...that is making many uneasy, it's causing quite a bit of cognitive dissonance.....

Using race as a correlative metric in regards to transition from looking at populations to the individual is an incorrect approach and is potentially questionable when evaluating the population itself.

listen to those on the right who recognize this...they get it...It's not the end of the world, it's the beginning of a new chapter yet to be finished...

The role of government (there is no difference paradigmatically between the two major so-called parties) and its institutions are in for a major change. The policies and 'programs' implemented during the 1950s and 1960s will be untenable in the multipolar world.

[Phoenix]

go whitey...that's the message....

Texas comes off that list in 2016...what are you going to do then?

When are you going to throw that telephone sized chip off your shoulder?

Yes I am white, I ate lunch at a black owned restaurant Friday and at a Latino owned restaurant Friday evening. Good meals one and all.

Saturday a black service technician came to my house for appliance repair, and both my spouse and I sincerely thanked him, he did a fine job.

Here we support HARD working humans, regardless of what color skin they have.

The only people I have a complete disgust for are the hate fill race baiters and whiners who use race as an eternal crutch and excuse to explain away their own deficiencies and dissatisfaction with the world.

Get over it dude, the civil war ended 150 years ago. What happened then is immaterial to everybody alive today. And if you still pull the race card, you are no better a person than the racists of the 1860's.

[can you hear me now!]

[QUOTE=dsummoner;8191803]The difference regarding ideas is both acceptable and should be encouraged. Doing best 'for the country' is subject to extensive debate arising from this difference regarding ideas and by no means is unitary.

I agree...people are entrenched to the point where acceptance is considered something more than genuine disagreement


There were a distinct set of ideals upon which this country was founded (and has since strayed away from).

It depends on ideals you focus on....not everything was as rosy as some would want to believe...despite stating all are equal, some were more equal than others....


Simply going along with the political agenda of the face of big government that was selected is antithetical to these ideals. In this vein, the responsibility for educating (I use this term very loosely in regards to the government educational system) should lie with those that have made those who need to be educated. It should not serve as a basis for collectivism or making a mockery of the concept of property ownership.

I'm not a big fan of the undefined term "big government", as too many people use it as a crutch to complain because they aren't able to impose their will on every one. As far as education, just spend sometime in Texas to see how education doesn't work. The goal of education should be to prepare generations to go out and be productive. That includes expanding one's exposure to a myriad of ideas....we've become a country afraid of ideas...there is a reason why this country is falling behind in STEM and that lagging not only affects the economic well being of the country but it also comes with a national security risk...

Property ownership....sadly the invisible hand has been replaced by the not so invisible hand of money, influence and a rigging of the system..seriously, the I got mine mentality is troubling....I do have mine...however, that doesn't mean I can disconnect from the reality of the situation...why do you think the disparity between the upper and lower levels in this country exist? It's not because people decided to stop trying...



The US can ill-afford any additional tired and hungry masses nor does either the manufacturing sector or the services sector require masses of brute labor. The lack of necessity for such labor coupled with the welfare state makes no fiscal sense when it comes to importing foreign poverty into the country. The reality of the so-called melting pot is quite different than the peacey, tolerancey and acceptancey revisionism that one oft sees.

See my bit about education...we let ourselves get run over through a number of missteps. There is no reason not to reinvest in the manufacturing base in this country, but when you encourage companies to take their jobs, money and tax base with them, what do you expect? Letting jobs leave without having jobs to replace them is kind of short sighted...

the welfare state has existed for almost 80 years...there are things that can be done to fix entitlements, however, that is going to take a combination of political will and an acceptance by politicians that those are real people you are talking about, not just numbers....there is an extreme differennce between a hand out and a hand up...


peace, tolerance and acceptance...it is the way people should behave in an orderly society....



One should not confuse nation with state or country. Each term has distinct meaning (one oft sees this confusion in regards to the terms nation building and state building). On national identity, the populace has not only been cloven but such cleaving is actively encouraged (the insert special race based identity groups are but one example). Such fragmentation is by no means unique to modernity (e.g. slavery, separate but equal and the actual history of immigration). As far as the state goes, the path to Reset is already cemented.

nation-- that would be all of us. nation is a concept of people living under a diverse set conditions....yes, sadly people don't behave as they should and sometimes the government needs to ensure fairness..it is what it is and not limited to the US borders....

we need a reset and that reset includes not fondly looking back on the days of yore and pining for them...a reset is needed to ensure that the lessons learned through the first 237 years so the country can continue to exist....all great civilizations come to an end at some point..usually as a result of concentrated power and wealth in the hands of a few....we are headed that way...



Discord and disagreement is more apt than the melting pot.

As far as 'enlightened' goes, I will respectively have to disagree. Indolence, factual ignorance, vapidity (celebritard worship inclusive of the political sphere) coupled with a mechanism (government) for nurturing all three are not characteristic of enlightenment.

enlightenment-- you do have a point. however, I attribute that to a subset of the culture that is more enamored with substance over style....this is the dumbing down of the populace and sadly it is voluntary....I think the buzzwords in this election were "low information"...what I was aiming for with the enlightened comment had more to do with looking at the way this country was set up and the adjustments made over the course f the last 237 years...



Using race as a correlative metric in regards to transition from looking at populations to the individual is an incorrect approach and is potentially questionable when evaluating the population itself.

I thing I agree to an extent....got to think this one through....



The role of government (there is no difference paradigmatically between the two major so-called parties) and its institutions are in for a major change. The policies and 'programs' implemented during the 1950s and 1960s will be untenable in the multipolar world.

yes the two parties are really one party-- no argument there and very much the reason the political middle is pretty much abandoned... the world is much different and much more interconnected and as such, the governing class needs to understand what that means in terms of what this country can support and what it cannot....

[can you hear me now!]

When are you going to throw that telephone sized chip off your shoulder?

Yes I am white, I ate lunch at a black owned restaurant Friday and at a Latino owned restaurant Friday evening. Good meals one and all.

Saturday a black service technician came to my house for appliance repair, and both my spouse and I sincerely thanked him, he did a fine job.

Here we support HARD working humans, regardless of what color skin they have.

The only people I have a complete disgust for are the hate fill race baiters and whiners who use race as an eternal crutch and excuse to explain away their own deficiencies and dissatisfaction with the world.

Get over it dude, the civil war ended 150 years ago. What happened then is immaterial to everybody alive today. And if you still pull the race card, you are no better a person than the racists of the 1860's.

me get over what? you seem to be the one who has an issue with getting over things....just take you "I am only going to support red states" pledge...sounds like you need to get over it...

you seem to be the one with the chip since you have stated you will only spend money in other red states...that's a chip on your shoulder my friend...

you are the one mocking the population for reelecting Obama, not me...that's your chip as well....you are the one whining about the outcome because you have a deep seated fear of something and I think your response kind of hit on it...

you whole approach to dealing with this election screams you have a large large chip on your shoulder....

as far as race goes...you seem to be pleading a case here that doesn't exist...all you missed saying was "I have (insert a number) of black friends"...

just so you know, I am white, in my 50s and work hard enough to support my family and be ready for retirement....I could very easily disconnect from all of this and live in my own happy bubble...however "I've got mine" isn't something I buy into....

just remember those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it...to dismiss what happen in the 1860's is just that....I realize there are those in the south who think the war is still taking place....

projection is not your friend....

[Phoenix]

me get over what? you seem to be the one who has an issue with getting over things....just take you "I am only going to support red states" pledge...sounds like you need to get over it...

you seem to be the one with the chip since you have stated you will only spend money in other red states...that's a chip on your shoulder my friend...

you are the one mocking the population for reelecting Obama, not me...that's your chip as well....you are the one whining about the outcome because you have a deep seated fear of something and I think your response kind of hit on it...

you whole approach to dealing with this election screams you have a large large chip on your shoulder....

as far as race goes...you seem to be pleading a case here that doesn't exist...all you missed saying was "I have (insert a number) of black friends"...

just so you know, I am white, in my 50s and work hard enough to support my family and be ready for retirement....I could very easily disconnect from all of this and live in my own happy bubble...however "I've got mine" isn't something I buy into....

just remember those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it...to dismiss what happen in the 1860's is just that....I realize there are those in the south who think the war is still taking place....

projection is not your friend....

There is a subtle war going on right now, and it was accelerated with President Obama's all out assault on the rich guys, corporations, oil companies and everything foreign to a left wing Democrat. Difference is Obama and you supporters of him will push this nation over the financial cliff, and we will be just like the collapsed socialist country that Greece is.

Like it or not, discretionary spending is 100% an individual's choice.

And I am betting that the first state that folds, will be a blue state.

Before the elections, you Marylanders were all whining about the sad and sorry state of affairs. In time, you will again revert to whining and complaining as you did before.

Voting for Obama a second time for you guys was the equivalent of backing up the Titanic and ramming the iceberg twice.

[The Eternal White Belt]

Not that you care, but white injustices against blacks didn't end in 1860. Open a book sometime and read about reconstruction, white flight and Jim Crow. There are millions of people alive today who lived through still remember these injustices. This is not the distant past - it is the recent past.

To act like it should disappear overnight is naive. Things get better every day and hopefully I will live to see the rift fully healed.

[can you hear me now!]

There is a subtle war going on right now, and it was accelerated with President Obama's all out assault on the rich guys, corporations, oil companies and everything foreign to a left wing Democrat. Difference is Obama and you supporters of him will push this nation over the financial cliff, and we will be just like the collapsed socialist country that Greece is.

Like it or not, discretionary spending is 100% an individual's choice.

And I am betting that the first state that folds, will be a blue state.

Before the elections, you Marylanders were all whining about the sad and sorry state of affairs. In time, you will again revert to whining and complaining as you did before.

Voting for Obama a second time for you guys was the equivalent of backing up the Titanic and ramming the iceberg twice.

you Marylanders? you don't pay attention much do you--- I live in Texas, you know that state just to the west of Louisiana....try to keep up...and a state the is essentially bankrupt....

you now have decided to change the subject...wise move as you were getting you rear end handed to you...

and I see you are another one of the corporate apologists.....when your job goes overseas, how are you going to feel then? corporations exist for one reason-- to make money...nothing else....they don't care about the people they exploit, the rules they break (see banking collapse for a perfect example), the economies they ruin and the things they destroy...as long as they get their money from you, me and the government enables them...you my friend are in for a rude awakening someday....

[The Eternal White Belt]

We live in a Walmart society where low cost rules the day. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

[dsummoner]

It is always a pleasure conversing with you, my friend.

I agree...people are entrenched to the point where acceptance is considered something more than genuine disagreement

My suspicion is as follows: If it were mere disagreement then the expression of entrenchment would be a bit more muted. Unfortunately, however, both 'sides' resort to using government to force their bent onto others. On the expression side alone, however, there are more outlets for the same with media fragmentation and (of course) the Internet.

It depends on ideals you focus on....not everything was as rosy as some would want to believe...despite stating all are equal, some were more equal than others....

My words were carefully chosen and such is why I used the word 'ideals' rather than 'implementation.' The ideals expressed in the Bill of Rights were unique from the historical perspective (even considering the Manga Carta) and especially in consideration of the fact that for almost all of recorded human history, the individual has been subservient to government (whether embodied in unitary monarchy or in the selected few). The progression of time, however, has seen the return to the historical norm.

I'm not a big fan of the undefined term "big government", as too many people use it as a crutch to complain because they aren't able to impose their will on every one. As far as education, just spend sometime in Texas to see how education doesn't work. The goal of education should be to prepare generations to go out and be productive. That includes expanding one's exposure to a myriad of ideas....we've become a country afraid of ideas...there is a reason why this country is falling behind in STEM and that lagging not only affects the economic well being of the country but it also comes with a national security risk...

A government that can give to you (in the general sense) everything that you want can also take away everything that you (in the general sense) have. The education problems stems from a deeper problem - that being one of the lack of individual responsibility when it comes to breeding (the root cause for almost all of the ills of society). The collectivization of the costs of the outcome of breeding incentivize those that are least fit for the responsibility (i.e. lacking the fiscal, emotional and mental means) of the outcome to engage in it. This becomes manifest in the so-called education system when it comes to the squandering of OPM for the 'system' (people generally are much more interested and much more careful when it is their own money at stake rather than when it is OPM at stake). The system itself has become one where so-called 'teachers' siphon money from others while defraying the failed outcomes for their inability to educate their wards (some of their arguments are correct but many are not). This, unfortunately, is coupled with the vapid idiocy of things such as social justice, racial justice and peddling creationism as science. Algebra is not too hard for junior high school students. Ebonics is not an acceptable 'dialect' for instruction. Race and socioeconomic status are not an excuse for poor academic performance (as minimized as such are). 'Special history' while promulgating divisive distinctions and attempting to justify failure is not a substitute for math and science (neither of which are racist).

Property ownership....sadly the invisible hand has been replaced by the not so invisible hand of money, influence and a rigging of the system..seriously, the I got mine mentality is troubling....I do have mine...however, that doesn't mean I can disconnect from the reality of the situation...why do you think the disparity between the upper and lower levels in this country exist? It's not because people decided to stop trying...

Money, influence rigging, etc. are operative in all societies regardless of time or place. This is why the ones that truly understand the system not only collude with government but do so in an apolitical manner. When it comes to the purported "I got mine" argument, by question is rather simple (and you will notice how it is never directly answered): What have you or any other person done, under explicit contractual obligation in which the exchange of my funds for your goods/services/funds entitles you to even one cent of my work product?

Socioeconomic disparity is an outcome of finite resources in all societies and in the broader animal kingdom as a whole and will not be corrected by a scheme of redistribution. By removing the requirement for basic adult individual responsibility the government has, indeed, created a situation in which the lower economic stratum need not bother to try. Can you name for me one adult responsibility for which a purported adult in the lower economic stratum retains responsibility?

In very recent times, since 2007-2008, the disparity has been directly underpinned by the bailout of the financial sector. One will notice how the populist propaganda peddlers such as the Butfatt of Omaha are silent on the government buttressing of their gambling on the financial sector and making whole their bets on the same (the honesty of his business partner Charlie Munger, however, is quite refreshing). The millions more paid in taxes under a higher marginal rate is nothing compared to the billions saved/made by the bailouts and their continuance.

See my bit about education...we let ourselves get run over through a number of missteps. There is no reason not to reinvest in the manufacturing base in this country, but when you encourage companies to take their jobs, money and tax base with them, what do you expect? Letting jobs leave without having jobs to replace them is kind of short sighted...

The working with others and being but a part of the global community is a double edged sword. The protectionism of the past is a non-starter under the WTO. Furthermore, the world of the 1950s is not the world of today. Make no mistake about it... the policies of the 1950s and the two decades before and the one decade afterwards are not the basis for the rise of the US as an economic powerhouse nor its retention, now, in a state of primacy. US economic position has been and is a direct function of the relative competitiveness of foreigners. US economic primacy in the 1950s was not the result of socialist security, high marginal tax rates and 'middle class' position for the barely educated that could turn a bolt... it was because the US was spared the economic devastation of WWII while the industrial infrastructure of the rest of the industrialized world was bombed to utter destruction. Now, in the multipolar world, the US position has been one of diminution. Furthermore, with advances in technology, one simply does not need as much brute labor as in the past for the completion of the same set of tasks.

With the economic rise of other countries, the cost of domestic labor and the cost of domestic rules/regulations, why would any company engage in production (manufacturing or otherwise) when the same production can be done overseas at a much lower cost?

the welfare state has existed for almost 80 years...there are things that can be done to fix entitlements, however, that is going to take a combination of political will and an acceptance by politicians that those are real people you are talking about, not just numbers....there is an extreme differennce between a hand out and a hand up...

There is no political will for this nor can there be any reasonable expectation for political will for this when the system is predicated on politicians securing votes from those that vote for their entitlements at the expense of OPM. This is why entitlements and welfare have metastasized in such a short period of time and why actual change will come from without and not from within. When one decouples individual responsibility from getting OPM and removes judgement/merit from getting OPM then it becomes a clear situation of a handout rather than a hand up.

Using race as a correlative metric in regards to transition from looking at populations to the individual is an incorrect approach and is potentially questionable when evaluating the population itself.

I thing I agree to an extent....got to think this one through....

Your thought on this is appreciated.

yes the two parties are really one party-- no argument there and very much the reason the political middle is pretty much abandoned... the world is much different and much more interconnected and as such, the governing class needs to understand what that means in terms of what this country can support and what it cannot....

One should keep in mind that middle, conservative,liberal, etc. are functions of time and place.

[dsummoner]

peace, tolerance and acceptance...it is the way people should behave in an orderly society....

That, my friend, and more specifically the mechanism, depends on the society. This goes back to the issue of the ideals upon which the country was founded.

nation-- that would be all of us. nation is a concept of people living under a diverse set conditions....yes, sadly people don't behave as they should and sometimes the government needs to ensure fairness..it is what it is and not limited to the US borders....

There is substantial schizophrenia when it comes to national identity and the same shows the infantile nature of the so-called 'political spectrum.' The same folks pushing for internationalism and memes such as mere fate or accident or luck of being born here in one thread will, in the next thread, turn around and peddle jingoism (and at the same time support primary identification based on characteristics such as race, religion, national origin, etc. that all undermine national identity). Generally, such folks are too intellectually derelict to understand the tenuous nature of their positions and serve only for the purpose of being pilloried.

As far as fairness goes... redistribution of wealth, equality of outcome, etc. are antithetical to fairness.

we need a reset and that reset includes not fondly looking back on the days of yore and pining for them...a reset is needed to ensure that the lessons learned through the first 237 years so the country can continue to exist....all great civilizations come to an end at some point..usually as a result of concentrated power and wealth in the hands of a few....we are headed that way...

Civilizations come to an end when they forget that which it was that made them great. All great civilizations started and became great with wealth and power concentrated in the hands of the few.

enlightenment-- you do have a point. however, I attribute that to a subset of the culture that is more enamored with substance over style....this is the dumbing down of the populace and sadly it is voluntary....I think the buzzwords in this election were "low information"...what I was aiming for with the enlightened comment had more to do with looking at the way this country was set up and the adjustments made over the course f the last 237 years...

Not having to worry about meeting the basic needs of the meat sack can go in one of two ways. In the first, it frees up time to spend on activities in the vein of intellectual pursuits. In the second, it frees up time to vapidly and moronically drool over the fartings of the barely trained monkey celebritard crowd. Unfortunately, the second is where the majority of the country has gone.