Steven Spielberg's movie about Lincoln is pure BS!!!!!!

[Joy in Mudville]

Without secession there would have been no war.

No [deleted] sherlock. If you are trying to suggest that the rebels started the hostilities well, duh...

The south was fighting for its independence.

The south was fighting to perpetuate slavery.

You can argue all you want whether they were an actual sovereign nation or not because it is not relevant to anything of importance. They fought as a nation and were fought against as a nation.

I'm not the one who brought up sovereignty. You and your neo-confederate friends did. By the way, if they were fighting as a nation then why did the south have so much difficulty raising taxes or implementing a truly coordinated national military campaign? They essentially fought as a number of independent statewide militias who were sometimes able to coordinate and oftentimes were not.

Do you believe a people have a right to a government of their choosing?

They are called elections. They had one in 1860 and we just had another in 2012. The point of a representative democracy is not to up and quit the nation if you lose the majority. There is also an process for amending the constitution. If there's an aspect of our government you do not like, gather your friends and amend the constitution in order to change it.

Speaking of irrelevant, Lincoln's personal attitudes on the issue of race seem hardly important here. Truman was no fan of African Americans and used to love to tell jokes about 'the darkies' and yet he still desegregated the armed forces. Eisenhower also possessed more than his share of bigotry and prejudice but when the time came, he, like his predecessor Lincoln, could not abide a state government directly challenging the authority of the federal government and sent troops to Arkansas to enforce a Supreme Court ruling. Where these presidents' attitudes toward race do strike me as significant is that it demonstrates their ability to overcome their own personal limitations to ultimately do the right thing.

[flyboy56]

Beyond that, the Union had, in 1860, 90 percent of the manufacturing capability.

Because the south did not have a large industrial complex. I think you answered your own question about why the south had difficulty raising money for a military Joy.

[Smokey 1]

No [deleted] sherlock. If you are trying to suggest that the rebels started the hostilities well, duh...

No they didn't. If the US left them alone there would have been no war, the US was the aggressor.

I'm not the one who brought up sovereignty. You and your neo-confederate friends did. By the way, if they were fighting as a nation then why did the south have so much difficulty raising taxes or implementing a truly coordinated national military campaign? They essentially fought as a number of independent statewide militias who were sometimes able to coordinate and oftentimes were not.

What is this "neo confederate" nonsense. I am a civil war buff and I used to be a reenactor. History is a hobby for me.

They are called elections. They had one in 1860 and we just had another in 2012. The point of a representative democracy is not to up and quit the nation if you lose the majority. There is also an process for amending the constitution. If there's an aspect of our government you do not like, gather your friends and amend the constitution in order to change it.

Thats right and the people of those states elected to leave the US. You still didn't answer they question. Do you believe a people have the right to a government of their own choosing? Yes or no?

[Eastside Terp]

Winning an Oscar doesn't make it true.

you are right, it's probably the exact opposite ......

[Eastside Terp]

Because the south did not have a large industrial complex. I think you answered your own question about why the south had difficulty raising money for a military Joy.

railroads also gave the north a huge advantage ......

[Joy in Mudville]

What is this "neo confederate" nonsense. I am a civil war buff and I used to be a reenactor. History is a hobby for me.

If history is really a hobby for you then you should know that Fort Sumter was under construction before the South seceded and that the south, not the north, fired the first shots on that federal property in January 1861 and thus put themselves into a state of insurrection.

Thats right and the people of those states elected to leave the US. You still didn't answer they question. Do you believe a people have the right to a government of their own choosing? Yes or no?

I did answer the question. They do have the right and the exercise the right through elections and the amendment process.

[flyboy56]

Actually I heard it was a Rebel and a Yankee in a bar and the.......took the first shot and that is what started it all. History is whatever the winners see it as.

[Joy in Mudville]

Actually I heard it was a Rebel and a Yankee in a bar and the.......took the first shot and that is what started it all. History is whatever the winners see it as.

Sometimes, but there are these things called facts. The Japanese did bomb Pearl Harbor and the South committed the first act of aggression by firing on Ft Sumter.

[OldBay]

Sometimes, but there are these things called facts. The Japanese did bomb Pearl Harbor and the South committed the first act of aggression by firing on Ft Sumter.

Now you've done it - opened the door for the revisionists to claim the US was the aggressor by having warships at Pearl.

[Joy in Mudville]

Because the south did not have a large industrial complex. I think you answered your own question about why the south had difficulty raising money for a military Joy.

Actually, I said taxes. The Confederate government did put a tax on exports and eventually tried to impose a war tax but found it was almost impossible to collect due, in no small part, to the individual states reluctance to grant the power of taxation to the central government in Richmond.

[Contumacious]

Sometimes, but there are these things called facts. .......the first act of aggression by firing on Ft Sumter.

1-The Battle of Fort Sumter (April 12–14, 1861) was the bombardment and surrender of Fort Sumter, near Charleston, South Carolina, that started the American Civil War. Following declarations of secession by seven Southern states, South Carolina demanded that the U.S. Army abandon its facilities in Charleston Harbor. On December 26, 1860, U.S. Major Robert Anderson surreptitiously moved his small command from the indefensible Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island to Fort Sumter, a substantial fortress controlling the entrance of Charleston Harbor. An attempt by U.S. President James Buchanan to reinforce and resupply Anderson, using the unarmed merchant ship Star of the West, failed when it was fired upon by shore batteries on January 9, 1861. South Carolina authorities then seized all Federal property in the Charleston area, except for Fort Sumter.

[Joy in Mudville]

1-The Battle of Fort Sumter (April 12–14, 1861) was the bombardment and surrender of Fort Sumter, near Charleston, South Carolina, that started the American Civil War. Following declarations of secession by seven Southern states, South Carolina demanded that the U.S. Army abandon its facilities in Charleston Harbor. On December 26, 1860, U.S. Major Robert Anderson surreptitiously moved his small command from the indefensible Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island to Fort Sumter, a substantial fortress controlling the entrance of Charleston Harbor. An attempt by U.S. President James Buchanan to reinforce and resupply Anderson, using the unarmed merchant ship Star of the West, failed when it was fired upon by shore batteries on January 9, 1861. South Carolina authorities then seized all Federal property in the Charleston area, except for Fort Sumter.

Thanks for clarifying that. The South fired the first shots on an unarmed federal supply ship in January. They then attacked the fort itself in April of the same year, eventually seizing it.

[Contumacious]

Thanks for clarifying that. The South fired the first shots on an unarmed federal supply ship in January. They then attacked the fort itself in April of the same year, eventually seizing it.

We hold these truths to be self-evident,

that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it

.

[Joy in Mudville]

We hold these truths to be self-evident,

that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it

.

Um...

You're quoting the Declaration of Independence which has no legal bearing on the United States of America or its citizens. The Constitution, however does carry legal weight and was the Supreme law of the land in 1860 as it is the supreme law of the land today. By the way, the people have a right to alter the constitution just as they have a right to vote for their representatives at the local, state, and federal level. They also have a right to petition their government and a right to bring grievances before an independent judiciary. There is however, no opt out clause. In other words, you can't just pick up your marbles and go home because you don't like the results of a fair election.

But what does any of this have to do with "Lincoln" being b.s.?

[Joy in Mudville]

We hold these truths to be self-evident,

that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it

.

Am I the only one who sees the irony here. Contumacious is using the part of the document about the right of people to abolish a government in order to preserve a culture that systematically denied millions of men, women, and children their unalienable right to liberty?

I mean, really?

[Contumacious]

Um...

You're quoting the Declaration of Independence which has no legal bearing on the United States of America or its citizens.?

I understand.

I just wanted to show what a great document Thomas Jefferson - US Founding Father and 3rd US President - created for ....er........uhum........the Mexicans?...................Canadians?............ .ah...........am I Pho King close?

.

[Smokey 1]

Am I the only one who sees the irony here. Contumacious is using the part of the document about the right of people to abolish a government in order to preserve a culture that systematically denied millions of men, women, and children their unalienable right to liberty?

I mean, really?

Oh, I didn't see where the right of self determination has a morality clause.

[Smokey 1]

If history is really a hobby for you then you should know that Fort Sumter was under construction before the South seceded and that the south, not the north, fired the first shots on that federal property in January 1861 and thus put themselves into a state of insurrection.

Yes, as an amateur historian I know that the fort was on SC land no matter when it was constructed and that the troops in SC were provoked to fire on the fort in order to give Lincoln the excuse he wanted to invade.

I did answer the question. They do have the right and the exercise the right through elections and the amendment process.

No you avoided answering the question again. I wonder why? All it takes is a yes or no answer and you refused to give it. And I do know why.

Here is another question for you that I know you won't answer. Do you agree that this country would have been much better off if Great Britain never allowed any slaves to be brought here?

[georjec2]

Only someone who is affiliated with Al Qaeda would make such a statement:

"620,000 Americans had to die (the equivalent of about 6 million deaths standardizing for today's population); more than double that number had to be maimed for life; dozens of Southern cities and towns had to be bombed into rubble; tens of thousands of Southern civilians were justifiably murdered by the U.S. Army; the Constitution had to be suspended in the North; tens of thousands of Northern civilian political dissenters were justly imprisoned without due process; hundreds of opposition newspapers were rightly shut down or destroyed; tens of millions of dollars in private property were justifiably looted by Sherman's army (and others); and although the North's financial cost of the war alone would have been enough to purchase the freedom of all the slaves, that was not an option."

.

Only someone who knew very little about the details of the Civil War would make your statement. The plug of information you gave above is like saying 'six million Jews plus five million other innocents were murdered during the holocaust.'. it is just a snapshot of the many combinations of events of WWII.

I'd love to sit with you one on one to find out your knowledge of the battles that were fought, where and under what conditions. Can you name the Ironclads that were uses during the Civil War. What time did the civil war start. Who gave the command to fire on Ft. Sumter ? How many Generals can you name ? Where did it end ?

It'd be interesting.

Like I said, Lincoln is one of the greatest men America ever produced.

[georjec2]

It's not like this is the first BS movie that may win an Oscar. Bowling for Columbine won as a documentary even though it had numerous falsities. Winning an Oscar doesn't make it true.

Maybe not but it sure makes them famous.