Israel's Iron Dome - it works!

[dsummoner]

Hamas is providing the Israelis and the world a demonstration that they are the dominant Palestinian authority figure now and not the corrupt discredited Palestinian Authority. Abbas is irrelevant in case there is anyone left out there who hasn't gotten the memo. Hamas is also demonstrating that our drone technology ironically enough could prove to be Israel's final undoing now that Tel Aviv is within range of their rockets.

At some point these two have to talk.

Hamas' intentions were to (a) as you have noted and beyond, further exhibit the obsolescence of the PA (it would have been a PR coup for the PA had it been able to shepherd its demand for UN recognition to fruition) and (b) send a message to other regional players such as Hizb'allah that it was on equal footing. Intentions, however, don't always translate into results. The results in this case are that Hamas is being pummeled (the dangers of moving from an in-the-shadows violent non-state actor to a state-level actor with infrastructure that can be targeted) and is following, potentially, the scriptural example of a (temporary) cease-fire in order to regain its strength and reassess its military strategy. The Muslim Brotherhood, the 'can has democracy' leadership of Egypt (thank you Mr. President), has already (as expected) thrown its hat in the ring for Hamas. That Egypt is, now, trying to talk about cease fires only goes to show how poorly things are going for Hamas.

The Jews would only be slitting their own throats by 'talking' unless and until Hamas revokes its Covenant and disavows any Medinan era scripture (in word and more so in practice) and repudiates Muhammad as the al Insan al Kamil. Otherwise, any time wasted talking, is merely allowing Hamas to regroup, rearm and develop new strategies for the war against the 'Yehud.'

[zenwalk]

The Jews would only be slitting their own throats by 'talking' unless and until Hamas revokes its Covenant and disavows any Medinan era scripture (in word and more so in practice) and repudiates Muhammad as the al Insan al Kamil. Otherwise, any time wasted talking, is merely allowing Hamas to regroup, rearm and develop new strategies for the war against the 'Yehud.'

I wish the Israelis well and understand what a PITA this is. The Israeli situation is pretty much intractable and is guaranteed to end badly. The only question we have to ask ourselves is whether we want to be dragged into it when it happens. We choose to be part of it with our active engagement over there.

[dsummoner]

I wish the Israelis well and understand what a PITA this is. The Israeli situation is pretty much intractable and is guaranteed to end badly. The only question we have to ask ourselves is whether we want to be dragged into it when it happens. We choose to be part of it with our active engagement over there.

The 'Holy Land' has been a pernicious source of conflict for humanity well before the rise of Abrahamic monotheism and even more so after the establishment of the same (one catalyst being the rise of successive 'newer and better' versions that sought to incorporate their 'older and worse' versions). It certainly will go bad for the Israelis if they continue to follow the Western mode of so-called warfare (the Taliban is handing the US its arse in Afghanistan through the slow but sure process of exhaustion while the US continues to fight with both hands tied behind its back) and if they view the conflict through a secular lens. Israel's dominance in conventional arms has worked for them (along with their nuclear deterrent). The game changes, given enough time, if Hamas, Hizb'allah, PIJ, etc., et al. develop offensive capabilities along the lines of what the ISI (Islamic State of Iraq) developed (the HME and IED negated a substantial portion of the US' technological advantage). The strategic situation changes markedly when Iran develops its first nuclear weapon. One way or the other, it will end badly (very badly) for one side in the centuries old conflict between the Jews and Muslims. The US, of course, should not be involved but given the nature of schizophrenic and oft-confused US foreign policy... the US will be involved.

[uche]

The 'Holy Land' has been a pernicious source of conflict for humanity well before the rise of Abrahamic monotheism and even more so after the establishment of the same (one catalyst being the rise of successive 'newer and better' versions that sought to incorporate their 'older and worse' versions). It certainly will go bad for the Israelis if they continue to follow the Western mode of so-called warfare (the Taliban is handing the US its arse in Afghanistan through the slow but sure process of exhaustion while the US continues to fight with both hands tied behind its back) and if they view the conflict through a secular lens. Israel's dominance in conventional arms has worked for them (along with their nuclear deterrent). The game changes, given enough time, if Hamas, Hizb'allah, PIJ, etc., et al. develop offensive capabilities along the lines of what the ISI (Islamic State of Iraq) developed (the HME and IED negated a substantial portion of the US' technological advantage). The strategic situation changes markedly when Iran develops its first nuclear weapon. One way or the other, it will end badly (very badly) for one side in the centuries old conflict between the Jews and Muslims. The US, of course, should not be involved but given the nature of schizophrenic and oft-confused US foreign policy... the US will be involved.

The Israeli strategy of control also explains, strategically speaking, the “need” for the network of checkpoints; the looming separation barrier (known to Israelis as the “security fence” and to Palestinians as the “apartheid wall”) that divides Israel from the West Bank (and sometimes West Bankers from each other); the repeated evictions of Palestinians from residential areas like Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem; the systematic revoking of Jerusalem IDs once held by thousands of Palestinians who were born in the Holy City; and the labyrinthine travel restrictions which keep so many Palestinians locked in their West Bank enclaves.

While Israel justifies most of these measures in terms of national security, it’s clear enough that the larger goal behind them is to incrementally take and hold ever more of the land. The separation barrier, for example, has put 10 percent of the West Bank’s land on the Israeli side—a case of “annexation in the guise of security,” according to the respected Israeli human rights group B’tselem.
http://www.thenation.com/article/163...ine-disappears

[dsummoner]

The Israeli strategy of control also explains, strategically speaking, the “need” for the network of checkpoints; the looming separation barrier (known to Israelis as the “security fence” and to Palestinians as the “apartheid wall”) that divides Israel from the West Bank (and sometimes West Bankers from each other); the repeated evictions of Palestinians from residential areas like Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem; the systematic revoking of Jerusalem IDs once held by thousands of Palestinians who were born in the Holy City; and the labyrinthine travel restrictions which keep so many Palestinians locked in their West Bank enclaves.

While Israel justifies most of these measures in terms of national security, it’s clear enough that the larger goal behind them is to incrementally take and hold ever more of the land. The separation barrier, for example, has put 10 percent of the West Bank’s land on the Israeli side—a case of “annexation in the guise of security,” according to the respected Israeli human rights group B’tselem.
http://www.thenation.com/article/163...ine-disappears

One recalls, in times past, seeing numerous reports of martyrdom attacks in Israel proper... now days not so much. The separation barrier and security apparatus there, for their specific security situation, work.

The land goes to he who is strong enough to hold it. This is, after all, how Islam forced itself into the 'Holy Land' and how 'mericah itself was founded. As far as the prattling from the 'human rights' crowd... they are of the same variety that will be nowhere to be found if the Syrian rebels defeat the Assad government or if those waging jihad bis saif defeat the Jews. Any Israeli government giving them even a moment's worth of credence might as well save Hamas and Hizb'allah the effort and slit the throat of the Jews themselves.

[Wizard777]

The Israeli strategy of control also explains, strategically speaking, the “need” for the network of checkpoints; the looming separation barrier (known to Israelis as the “security fence” and to Palestinians as the “apartheid wall”) that divides Israel from the West Bank (and sometimes West Bankers from each other); the repeated evictions of Palestinians from residential areas like Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem; the systematic revoking of Jerusalem IDs once held by thousands of Palestinians who were born in the Holy City; and the labyrinthine travel restrictions which keep so many Palestinians locked in their West Bank enclaves.

While Israel justifies most of these measures in terms of national security, it’s clear enough that the larger goal behind them is to incrementally take and hold ever more of the land. The separation barrier, for example, has put 10 percent of the West Bank’s land on the Israeli side—a case of “annexation in the guise of security,” according to the respected Israeli human rights group B’tselem.
http://www.thenation.com/article/163...ine-disappears

If it were brown people doing this we would have had a boot knee deep in their arse a long time ago.

[Wizard777]

One recalls, in times past, seeing numerous reports of martyrdom attacks in Israel proper... now days not so much. The separation barrier and security apparatus there, for their specific security situation, work.

The land goes to he who is strong enough to hold it. This is, after all, how Islam forced itself into the 'Holy Land' and how 'mericah itself was founded. As far as the prattling from the 'human rights' crowd... they are of the same variety that will be nowhere to be found if the Syrian rebels defeat the Assad government or if those waging jihad bis saif defeat the Jews. Any Israeli government giving them even a moment's worth of credence might as well save Hamas and Hizb'allah the effort and slit the throat of the Jews themselves.

That's a one sided evaluation. I find both sides to be equally guilty of iniquity. I wouldn't take that might makes right approach. It isn't their might that holds the land. It's our protectionism. Of we ever walk away from that protectionism. Israel it's self will abandon might makes right to make a firm stand on international law that says you can't take land by military conquest.

[zenwalk]

The Israeli strategy of control also explains, strategically speaking, the “need” for the network of checkpoints; the looming separation barrier (known to Israelis as the “security fence” and to Palestinians as the “apartheid wall”) that divides Israel from the West Bank (and sometimes West Bankers from each other); the repeated evictions of Palestinians from residential areas like Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem; the systematic revoking of Jerusalem IDs once held by thousands of Palestinians who were born in the Holy City; and the labyrinthine travel restrictions which keep so many Palestinians locked in their West Bank enclaves.

While Israel justifies most of these measures in terms of national security, it’s clear enough that the larger goal behind them is to incrementally take and hold ever more of the land. The separation barrier, for example, has put 10 percent of the West Bank’s land on the Israeli side—a case of “annexation in the guise of security,” according to the respected Israeli human rights group B’tselem.
http://www.thenation.com/article/163...ine-disappears

Digesting Palestine in bite-sized chunks has been the status quo for years. You'd never know it by the American media but it's all about the settlement policy. This policy in fact depends on Palestinian rocket attacks as an acceptable cost/benefit price to pay since Arab aggression is responded to with more property being absorbed and cleansed into an Arab-free Israel.

[dsummoner]

That's a one sided evaluation. I find both sides to be equally guilty of iniquity. I wouldn't take that might makes right approach. It isn't their might that holds the land. It's our protectionism. Of we ever walk away from that protectionism. Israel it's self will abandon might makes right to make a firm stand on international law that says you can't take land by military conquest.

Might, my friend, has always made for right (regardless of the facade and trappings that one puts on it). The resources for the exhibition of might coupled with its method of expression are multifactorial. International law (specifically international humanitarian law), as with all other legal codes, only remains valid to the degree of might that backs it.

[Wizard777]

Digesting Palestine in bite-sized chunks has been the status quo for years. You'd never know it by the American media but it's all about the settlement policy. This policy in fact depends on Palestinian rocket attacks as an acceptable cost/benefit price to pay since Arab aggression is responded to with more property being absorbed and cleansed into an Arab-free Israel.

Israel's settlement expansion has nothing to do with Palestinian rocket attacks. If Palestine fires rockets at Israel. Then Israel expands the settlements. If Hamas stops the smaller Jihadi groups from firing rockets into Israel. Israel expands the settlements. In this day and age Ethnic Cleansing is almost always done under the false pretenses of being for security purposes.

[zenwalk]

Israel's settlement expansion has nothing to do with Palestinian rocket attacks. If Palestine fires rockets at Israel. Then Israel expands the settlements. If Hamas stops the smaller Jihadi groups from firing rockets into Israel. Israel expands the settlements. In this day and age Ethnic Cleansing is almost always done under the false pretenses of being for security purposes.

Yes, I know what you're saying and you are right as far as it goes but the overarching sticking point, settlements and the right of Palestinian return are the officially stated issues on the Palestinian side of the table and the Palestinian rocket attacks on the Israeli side. Without rocket attacks the casus belli for maintaining the status quo falls apart. The Arabs would do their side a giant solid if they went Gandhi with this.

But I'm not an Arab and I'm not even a Jew so why should I even take a side? My input your input, American input in general is meaningless here. These are two sides that chose long ago to fight this one to the last man standing. I find it obscene that we subsidize it.

[Wizard777]

Might, my friend, has always made for right (regardless of the facade and trappings that one puts on it). The resources for the exhibition of might coupled with its method of expression are multifactorial. International law (specifically international humanitarian law), as with all other legal codes, only remains valid to the degree of might that backs it.

Like I said, Israel's "might" is not their own. Israel's might is that they MIGHT not be as bellicose if they had to do all their sabre rattling on their own dime.

It use to be that the only thing Americans knew about what was going on with Israel and Palestine is what Israel told us. Those days are forever gone. Now we not only get the other side of the story. We can get it straight from the horses mouth. Israel still maintains a greater presence in the American media. The American media is proving it's self to be as fair and ballanced in it's coverage of the conflict as FAUX News. I see Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren at least 10 times before I see a Palestinian representative once. The only reason not to present both sides of the story is to keep us from deciding who, if anyone, is the bad guy in this.

[zenwalk]

The only reason not to present both sides of the story is to keep us from deciding who, if anyone, is the bad guy in this.

We aren't interested in who the bad guy is. We are Israel's lawyer.

[dsummoner]

Like I said, Israel's "might" is not their own. Israel's might is that they MIGHT not be as bellicose if they had to do all their sabre rattling on their own dime.

Soft power, my friend, can work in multiple ways. One of the things that the US government purchases from the Israelis is their restraint. An unfettered Israel v. an already unfettered Hamas would go very, very poorly for Hamas.

It use to be that the only thing Americans knew about what was going on with Israel and Palestine is what Israel told us. Those days are forever gone. Now we not only get the other side of the story. We can get it straight from the horses mouth. Israel still maintains a greater presence in the American media. The American media is proving it's self to be as fair and ballanced in it's coverage of the conflict as FAUX News. I see Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren at least 10 times before I see a Palestinian representative once. The only reason not to present both sides of the story is to keep us from deciding who, if anyone, is the bad guy in this.

The 'information operations' is a critical aspect of modern day conflict. The 'media' itself is part and parcel of this.

[beeg jacques]

Israel's settlement expansion has nothing to do with Palestinian rocket attacks. If Palestine fires rockets at Israel. Then Israel expands the settlements. If Hamas stops the smaller Jihadi groups from firing rockets into Israel. Israel expands the settlements. In this day and age Ethnic Cleansing is almost always done under the false pretenses of being for security purposes.

Hamas considers all of Israel as occupied territory. That is why Hamas regularly fire rockets into Israel, regardless of any building activity in the West Bank. The fact that settlements cover less than 2 percent of the West Bank is immaterial to Hamas.

The fact that Israel exists at all, and must be obliterated is the documented basis for Hamas' assistance.

[Wizard777]

Soft power, my friend, can work in multiple ways. One of the things that the US government purchases from the Israelis is their restraint. An unfettered Israel v. an already unfettered Hamas would go very, very poorly for Hamas.



The 'information operations' is a critical aspect of modern day conflict. The 'media' itself is part and parcel of this.

I understand that. But we will not tolerate propaganda from our own government. So why would any sane individual think we will tolerate propaganda from Israel's government? We already know that Netanyahu thinks we're a bunch of "easily moved" idiots he can play for suckers.

[dsummoner]

I understand that. But we will not tolerate propaganda from our own government. So why would any sane individual think we will tolerate propaganda from Israel's government? We already know that Netanyahu thinks we're a bunch of "easily moved" idiots he can play for suckers.

'We' get nothing but propaganda from the US government. The 'US' changes nothing about the fact that all governments disseminate propaganda.

[beeg jacques]

You also have to keep in mind that these "rockets" are little more than over glorified fireworks. They're made in basements and have no guidance systems. They might even be able to cause more damage by using actual fireworks.

Fireworks?

Tel Aviv saved by Iron Dome intercept

TEL AVIV (Reuters) - Israel rushed a fifth Iron Dome air defense battery into service in the Tel Aviv area on Saturday, using it within hours to shoot down a rocket fired at the coastal metropolis from the Gaza Strip.

...Hamas, the Islamist group governing Gaza, claimed the attack and said the rocket was an Iranian-made Fajr-5, which has a 75 km (46 mile) range and a 175 kg (385 pound) warhead -- powerful enough to shear through a concrete apartment block.

[WKDWZD]

We aren't interested in who the bad guy is. We are Israel's lawyer.

Israels biatch more likely.

[beeg jacques]

Hamas bears main responsibility for Gaza crisis: UK

British Foreign Secretary William Hague said Thursday that Hamas "bears principal responsibility" for the surge in deadly Gaza violence, saying it should cease attacks against Israel immediately.

..."Hamas bears principal responsibility for the current crisis," Hague said in a statement.

"I utterly condemn rocket attacks from Gaza into southern Israel by Hamas and other armed groups. This creates an intolerable situation for Israeli civilians in southern Israel, who have the right to live without fear of attack from Gaza.

The rocket attacks also risk worsening the plight of Palestinian civilians in Gaza, which is already precarious.

"Hamas and other armed groups in Gaza should cease attacks against Israel immediately. I call on those in the region with influence over Hamas to use that influence to bring about an end to the attacks."