The Men Who Built America

[ericpd]

You could not have read up for comprehension on Obama's continuing bailout on the Men who are Building 'Mericah in such a short period of time.

LOL! You are nothing short of silly!

[dsummoner]

LOL! You are nothing short of silly!

That still is not enough time for you to have read up on the issue for comprehension.

Hint: That Lord, master, savior and leader (of some) that you are trying to carry the tainted water for is actively involved in the funneling of trillions of dollars to the scions of corporate finance... the Men who are building ya'r 'mericah.

[zenwalk]

Sorry but if Hitler doesn't have to divide his resources and not have to worry about British and American planes bombing his supply centers, Russia doesn't win that war by themselves. Eventually with technology the Russians would have run out of bodies and lost their war of attrition. Anyone who's oblivious to that is ...well.... oblivious

Russians run out of bodies? With ongoing purges he had entire populations to recruit. The Ukraine was a Soviet labor camp for all intents and purposes which is why when the Germans busted through there they joined them. The Russians were doing fine and would have won all by themselves, just like they won against Napoleon and everybody else that's ever invaded it.

This was the pivot point of the war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

Crime rates? Rampant? Look at the facts. Compare crime rate now to past decades. Oh and btw, Russia defeated Hitler.

Oh and btw, lend lease without thousands of aircraft and armor, without a western front, Normandy invasion, Mediterranean theater and Anglo-American strategic bombing of German oilfields and industrial centers, that statement, already dubious, is seriously in doubt.

But then again, they always have the Katyn Forrest to be proud of, right?

[mcorioles]

Russians run out of bodies? With ongoing purges he had entire populations to recruit. The Ukraine was a Soviet labor camp for all intents and purposes which is why when the Germans busted through there they joined them. The Russians were doing fine and would have won all by themselves, just like they won against Napoleon and everybody else that's ever invaded it.

This was the pivot point of the war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad

So you just dismiss lend lease, fighting a war on 2 fronts. The worst winter of the century helped stop Germany's advance and Hitler's blunderings. if the Russians were doing fine how come they rolled to within 30 miles of Moscow before the winter took hold? It was a tactical agreement between the Allies that Russia would push from the Eastern front and the U.S and GB and other allies would come up from Southern Europe and from Western Europe.That would make sense ,right? Just reverse the objective and you would have had the same results.It would be one thing if the Allies had failed on the Western front and Russia pushed all the way from their borders to the Atlantic. The Allies US and GB I believe actually claimed back more territory in Europe.

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

Russians run out of bodies? With ongoing purges he had entire populations to recruit. The Ukraine was a Soviet labor camp for all intents and purposes which is why when the Germans busted through there they joined them. The Russians were doing fine and would have won all by themselves, just like they won against Napoleon and everybody else that's ever invaded it.

This was the pivot point of the war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad

With all the troops tied up in North Africa and those in France, low countries looking west for an coming invasion, you don't think those would have had an effect on the outcome of the eastern front?

That moron Hitler kept a 250,000 troops doing nothing in Latvia and Lithuania right up to the end of the war.

Hitler's stupidity cost him the war in the east as much as anything. When the Brits had the chance to kill him with a clandestine sniper team they called it off. Why? Because with him gone, the Germans might have placed a real soldier leading their armies.

Borodino was pretty much a draw, the early Russian winter beat Napoleon as much as the Imperial Russian Army.

[zenwalk]

Ultimately Hitler won the war for us. By being stupid. No idea how things would have turned out had he had his head screwed on straight. We likely would have been allies with Hitler against Stalin, as Hitler thought would happen. The elite here and in England were inclined towards Hitler (this is the era the Bush family made their fortune in German steel). But there's no dissuading a German once he's made up his mind.

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

The Allies US and GB I believe actually claimed back more territory in Europe.

If you really want to get annoyed, look up the "Naughty Document". That goes a long way in explaining why the Allies stopped their push on Berlin and gave the eastern countries to Russia.

[zenwalk]

So you just dismiss lend lease, fighting a war on 2 fronts. The worst winter of the century helped stop Germany's advance and Hitler's blunderings. if the Russians were doing fine how come they rolled to within 30 miles of Moscow before the winter took hold? It was a tactical agreement between the Allies that Russia would push from the Eastern front and the U.S and GB and other allies would come up from Southern Europe and from Western Europe.That would make sense ,right? Just reverse the objective and you would have had the same results.It would be one thing if the Allies had failed on the Western front and Russia pushed all the way from their borders to the Atlantic. The Allies US and GB I believe actually claimed back more territory in Europe.

I'm not dismissing lend lease or any of those things. They hastened the end. But the end was written on the wall is my point. The German 6th Army was destroyed at Stalingrad. Period. You are left with an endgame from that point to the end. Try playing it in a board game. There is no victory after Stalingrad.

Hitler got started late in the campaign. The Russians, exactly like they did with Napoleon, offered no resistance. They let the Germans believe they were the rotten out house that Hitler claimed they were. The Russians lured them and lulled them, then snapped the trap in Stalingrad. After seven months of the the most brutal battle in world history the Germans were encircled, cut off and hauled off to labor camps. The airforce was reduced to squat.

On a side note, Kruschev was a political officer and served at Stalingrad. My sense is this experience with total war may have been the critical inch that kept us from nuclear annihilation during the Cuban missile crisis.

[ms maggie]

Oh yes, Russia defeated Hitler all by themselves. And cities are the safest places to live.

My what a helpful little soul, pointing out my errors. LOL. As if.


The statement was made that crime is rampant-- you want to show data to support that, you're up. And Russia was the prime mover in defeating Hitler--read some history.

[ms maggie]

Possibly the most ridiculous statement on WW2 I've ever read .

Perhaps you should read some more. Specifically the state of the war prior to Barbarosa. While you're at it, look up the respective military losses for the major players, then tell me how Russia wasn't the prime factor.

[workerbee]

You know, I watch this mini-marathon today on History HD and was amazed. I mean I remember reading about these characters in school, but the shows retold the story with a little more truth, and I'm sure, a little more truth. They represented a time and mentality I fear we would have been headed back to at full military speed had Romney won the November election. That mentality is sooo 2 centuries ago! I wonder if many of us (you) realize just how close we were to going backwards,... back to the days of greed set upon us by the likes of Rockerfeller, Vanderbilt, Rockerfeller, Carnegie & Morgan? And the way those clowns bought the nomination and eventual election of McKinley is so reminiscent of this past presidential election it's almost scarey,... as does Rockerfeller, Carnegie & Morgan, so does Adelson, Simmons, Perry, Rowling & Koch. Both generations of corporatists trying to purchase a POTUS that would roll back regulation, and give them free to wreak greed based havoc on us once all over again. Unbelievable that some people are so blind and naive to buy into mentality.

For those of you who missed it,... it's well worth the watch. Especially all you right wingers out there. WAKE UP! Seems as though all the jargon they sold us then they still trying now. it's almost embarrassing that Michael Steele is from my home state. LOL! Man,... I thought God stop making stupid! Apparently not!

Boooo!

[Contumacious]

That mentality is sooo 2 centuries ago! I wonder if many of us (you) realize just how close we were to going backwards,... back to the days of greed set upon us by the likes of Rockerfeller, Vanderbilt, Rockerfeller, Carnegie & Morgan? !

I disagree that a Romney victory would have restored the Constitution and free market economy in the US. Romney was an Obama light.

But to the extend that you are attacking Cornelius Vanderbilt and those who believed in the WORK ETHIC as "going backwards" and being greedy , I dissent.

I do not understand why is it that you are not afraid of the 50% of the population who is dependent on the taxpayers for their support.

I do not understand why is it that welfare/warfare state politicians are not greedy and dangerous to our national security.

.

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

Perhaps you should read some more. Specifically the state of the war prior to Barbarosa. While you're at it, look up the respective military losses for the major players, then tell me how Russia wasn't the prime factor.

Losses? And without a western front those losses would have been even more, maybe enough that German armor reaches Moscow before the snow encircles Stalingrad.

[ms maggie]

I disagree that a Romney victory would have restored the Constitution and free market economy in the US. Romney was an Obama light.

But to the extend that you are attacking Cornelius Vanderbilt and those who believed in the WORK ETHIC as "going backwards" and being greedy , I dissent.

I do not understand why is it that you are not afraid of the 50% of the population who is dependent on the taxpayers for their support.

I do not understand why is it that welfare/warfare state politicians are not greedy and dangerous to our national security.

.

Think it's foolish to demonize the likes of Carnegie. Extraordinary man who drove the growth of our country. Likewise you have to recognize that they exploited labor--perfectly fine at that time but that sort of scenario would never had birthed a middle class. It's foolish to see that time as somehow all roses IMO. The hard part is to prosper in the reality of the 21st century.

[ms maggie]

Losses? And without a western front those losses would have been even more, maybe enough that German armor reaches Moscow before the snow encircles Stalingrad.

What western front? Hitler attempted to capture Moscow and was rebuffed in 1941. The western front wasn't a factor til 1944.

[mcorioles]

Perhaps you should read some more. Specifically the state of the war prior to Barbarosa. While you're at it, look up the respective military losses for the major players, then tell me how Russia wasn't the prime factor.

Iv'e read over 40 books on the subject and have a library room in my house dedicated to WW2. It was a joint effort ,period.No way in hell Russia could have helped win without MAJOR United States assistance.Your statement is just plain silly.

[ms maggie]

Iv'e read over 40 books on the subject and have a library room in my house dedicated to WW2. It was a joint effort ,period.No way in hell Russia could have helped win without MAJOR United States assistance.Your statement is just plain silly.

What major defeat did the Nazis have prior to invading Russia? Which side was winning?
The critical point in the war was when Hitler inexplicably decided to turn to the East. An invasion of Europe lacking the depletion of German forces in the East is a whole different ballgame.


Russia lost almost 39Million total, 12 Million soldiers in the war. To diminish their role is nonsense. I am not saying the rest of the Allies didn't play a critical part . But comparing LL to even the civilian hardships the Russians suffered is ludicrous. Yes we couldn't get sugar or nylons. At Leningrad people were reduced to cannibalism.

[ericpd]

I disagree that a Romney victory would have restored the Constitution and free market economy in the US. Romney was an Obama light.

I remember people saying the same when Bush got in,... and look what happened. GL passing (and yes, it did pass under Clinton) was the opening of the door for the greedy to be let loose. And like I said,... look what happened. I'm for free market economy, but as with most things, too much of a good thing most times turns out to be just as bad as a dose of bad things. My only point is this,... play the game, but play it with rules that won't allow a few to screw things up for others living here. Play the game, but understand that if you're in the game, you have some responsibility, that there is some order that trumps any 'win at any cost' mentality. There was a moment in the one of the shows where Rockerfeller was just informed that one of his competitors had just caved and was purchased by his company. When his confidant asked if he should go take a look at the company to see what's usable, Rockerfeller responded,... "No, shut it down"! Then calmly walked away, without any emotion. Do you think he had any idea how many lives his decision was about to ruin,... or do you think he was well aware and just didn't care? Smell a little like Bain? We're not talking about losers, we're talking about working families forcibly being turned into what some of you like to refer to as 'loosers', simply because one man has a feud with one other man. There needs to be rules against that. Why would you think not?

But to the extend that you are attacking Cornelius Vanderbilt and those who believed in the WORK ETHIC as "going backwards" and being greedy , I dissent.

Whoa! I'm not attacking these men blindly, nor am I attacking everything they did. I'm attacking their behavior AFTER becoming drunk with power. And to say they believed in the WORK ETHIC is ridiculous. They no more believed in the concept than your or I are able to walk to the moon. Fact is, they did everything to destroy it. If they believed so much in this concept, why were they so reluctant to reward it? When I used 'going backwards', I was referring to a time when the pursuit of personal profit at any cost very nearly wiped the middle class off of the American landscape. A time when, one man could literally double the unemployment in a community simply because he dislikes another man. A time when innovation and national advancement is smothered simply because one man was afraid that his personal wealth was threatened by this innovation. A time when men get wealthy not by way of what they make, but by how well they can connive, scheme and move money from one hand to the next. A time when the fat corporatists believe that 'free market' meant they could cause despair in the lives of the working class and monopolies were a divine gift from God. That's what I was speaking of.

I do not understand why is it that you are not afraid of the 50% of the population who is dependent on the taxpayers for their support.

My good friend,... 100% of us are dependent on 100% of us by way of taxes. All of us are taxpayers, whether we pay income tax, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, toll fee, or any other kind of tax or fee. and guess what,... all of us are dependent on the things those taxes and fees are designed to provide us. Now I'll accept your argument as a protest on what amounts to 'a matter of degree'. That some use more of those tax dollars than others,... and don't for a moment think it's always the poor using more than the rich. But there's no one living in this country that doesn't rely on collected tax dollars. Nobody!

I'm watching one of the most brutal sports right now on TV. Hell, even this sport has rules designed not to allow one to hurt the many,... and guess what, it's still all about winning. There's still a game!

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

What western front? Hitler attempted to capture Moscow and was rebuffed in 1941. The western front wasn't a factor til 1944.

And you don't think the 950,000 German soldiers occupying the low countries and France could have been helpful in the invasion of The USSR?

How about the bomber and fighter losses in the Battle of Britain? What if they had been available?

That western front.

The one where, not until 13 February 1942, after the invasion of Russia, were forces earmarked for Operation Sealion, the invasion of Britain,were released to other duties.

142 infantry divisions, 17 panzer divisions and 4,000 tanks, almost 2.9 million Germans, invaded the Soviets.

A 33% increase in available forces wouldn't have helped?