The Men Who Built America

[zenwalk]

Losses? And without a western front those losses would have been even more, maybe enough that German armor reaches Moscow before the snow encircles Stalingrad.

There wasn't a Western Front till June 44. By then the Germans had been in retreat from the Russians for over a year.

[ms maggie]

And you don't think the 950,000 German soldiers occupying the low countries and France could have been helpful in the invasion of The USSR?

How about the bomber and fighter losses in the Battle of Britain? What if they had been available?

That western front.

142 infantry divisions, 17 panzer divisions and 4,000 tanks, almost 2.9 million Germans, invaded the Soviets.

A 33% increase in available forces wouldn't have helped?

Hitler made a huge strategic mistake and the Russians, the Russians made hum pay for it. Western front ? You're talking 1944. And Germany had depleted itself by then.

2.9 Million? The Russians had many more millions to throw against Hitler and did.

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

There wasn't a Western Front till June 44. By then the Germans had been in retreat from the Russians for over a year.

Even though the Allies didn't invade until summer of 1944, Army Groups A & C, were forces earmarked for Operation Sealion, the invasion of Britain, and not until 13 February 1942, after the invasion of Russia, were they released to other duties.

Two complete army groups could have tipped the balance. Not to mention aircraft losses over the UK in the Battle of Britain.

[Joy in Mudville]

Look what we have become without the greedy industrialists.

Our nation's cities are crumbling as we speak, decay and crime are rampant. Baltimore has 41,000 vacant homes. Chicago has 20 to 30 shootings on a slow weekend. It is hard to name a major US city that has a prospering population, or even a population where fear from crime is absent.

New York, San Francisco, Austin, Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles, Chattanooga, DC and it's suburbs...

[bmore_ken]

The Russians were doing fine and would have won all by themselves, just like they won against Napoleon and everybody else that's ever invaded it.

This was the pivot point of the war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad

The Russians were doing fine because Hitler was using half an army against them. The other half was on the western front. Take all those German soldiers from the western front and put them in the East with German technology, and the German civilian war machine going full steam under no threat of air bombardment from the allies and game over for Russia. Hitler could have merely reinforced the Eastern from divisions not in the west and waited out the winter.

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

Hitler made a huge strategic mistake and the Russians, the Russians made hum pay for it. Western front ? You're talking 1944. And Germany had depleted itself by then.

2.9 Million? The Russians had many more millions to throw against Hitler and did.

According to the Russian Government in 1993 almost 9 million Russian soldiers were lost in WWII.

That's almost 5000 per day. According to Boris Sokolov's "The cost of war: Human losses for the USSR and Germany, 1939-1945" in The Journal of Soviet Military Studies Volume 9, Issue 1 March 1996, the forces squandered in occupation forces in the Baltics, Latvia, Lithuania, Greece, France and lost in North Africa could have doubled that. That would have been unsustainable, even by Russian standards.

[bmore_ken]

According to the Russian Government in 1993 almost 9 million Russian soldiers were lost in WWII.

That's almost 5000 per day. According to Boris Sokolov's "The cost of war: Human losses for the USSR and Germany, 1939-1945" in The Journal of Soviet Military Studies Volume 9, Issue 1 March 1996, the forces squandered in occupation forces in the Baltics, Latvia, Lithuania, Greece, France and lost in North Africa could have doubled that. That would have been unsustainable, even by Russian standards.

Exactly. As someone else said earlier(it may have been you) that personnel difference could have had the Germans in Moscow before the winter

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

Exactly. As someone else said earlier(it may have been you) that personnel difference could have had the Germans in Moscow before the winter

Yeah, just because there wasn't any Allied troops on the continent didn't mean the German high command could ignore the west.

They were well aware of the 350,000 or so English and Frenchmen that escaped at Dunkirk.

[zenwalk]

And you don't think the 950,000 German soldiers occupying the low countries and France could have been helpful in the invasion of The USSR?

Hitler's first blunder with Barbarossa was not launching in spring. He got tied up sorting out loose ends and didn't begin till summer. But big powers have traditionally underestimated the Russians. The Japanese in Manchuria had their hat handed to them in the 30's by Zhukov, the Russian victor of Stalingrad (which explains why they never tried it again):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol

Someone on the thread was saying that the war for the Germans was a matter of Russian attrition. Any country with Japan on one end and Finland on the other is one massive land mass.

[zenwalk]

According to the Russian Government in 1993 almost 9 million Russian soldiers were lost in WWII.

That's almost 5000 per day. According to Boris Sokolov's "The cost of war: Human losses for the USSR and Germany, 1939-1945" in The Journal of Soviet Military Studies Volume 9, Issue 1 March 1996, the forces squandered in occupation forces in the Baltics, Latvia, Lithuania, Greece, France and lost in North Africa could have doubled that. That would have been unsustainable, even by Russian standards.

A conservative estimate for the Russians in the Battle of Moscow is half a million. The numbers involved on both sides are so staggering it's hard to think that a million more men either way would make any difference. What got the Germans finally was the weather, the distance and the Russian hordes. You can't conduct a winter war in Russia and win. Hitler's standing order to never retreat sealed the deal.

[ms maggie]

Exactly. As someone else said earlier(it may have been you) that personnel difference could have had the Germans in Moscow before the winter

Coulda woulda shoulda. Look at what actually happened and the inescapable conclusion is the Russians broke the Nazis back.

Kinda ironic, what defeated Hitler was his ignorance of history. Should have studied Napolean, who shared Hitler's contempt for Russia.

And btw this started when I challenged the chauvinistic contention that we won the war. I simply pointed out that in fact the lion's share of credit for defeating the Germans should go to the Russians. All the "arguments" put forth have been why they were able to do so. Precious little countering the premise.

[Contumacious]

Think it's foolish to demonize the likes of Carnegie. Extraordinary man who drove the growth of our country. Likewise you have to recognize that they exploited labor--perfectly fine at that time but that sort of scenario would never had birthed a middle class. It's foolish to see that time as somehow all roses IMO. The hard part is to prosper in the reality of the 21st century.

So little time so much bullshiite.

In 1913 the fascists adopted legislation in order to "soak the rich". Find someone who works for a living, tell them to show their paycheck and bingo, whoomp there it is, deductions to pay the "income" and social security taxes.

Now Obama gets ready to levy a 2nd soak the rich tax which, just like its 1913 predecessor will be passed on to the middle class and the poor.

When will you people learn?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

.

[dsummoner]

Third soak the ebil debeel rich... the malformed monstrous entity from the womb of horrors, the AMT, was the second.

[ericpd]

So little time so much bullshiite.

In 1913 the fascists adopted legislation in order to "soak the rich". Find someone who works for a living, tell them to show their paycheck and bingo, whoomp there it is, deductions to pay the "income" and social security taxes.

Now Obama gets ready to levy a 2nd soak the rich tax which, just like its 1913 predecessor will be passed on to the middle class and the poor.

When will you people learn?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

.

Then include in the law provisions to prevent the rich from passing it on to the middle class and the poor. Make it illegal to skirt the intent of the law. That should work. You get caught passing your responsibility on to the middle class and the poor and they confiscate your home! Done! Just like if you get caught selling large amounts of drugs for a living,... they take your stuff! Bet it'll stop then. LOL! Obey the rules, make innovative stuff and you get rich! Skirt the rules, make millions by deceptively moving money around and making nothing,... you get pounded!

[dsummoner]

Then include in the law provisions to prevent the rich from passing it on to the middle class and the poor. Make it illegal to skirt the intent of the law. That should work. You get caught passing your responsibility on to the middle class and the poor and they confiscate your home! Done! Just like if you get caught selling large amounts of drugs for a living,... they take your stuff! Bet it'll stop then. LOL! Obey the rules, make innovative stuff and you get rich! Skirt the rules, make millions by deceptively moving money around and making nothing,... you get pounded!

Nope. BTW, when are the useless 'poor' going to stand up and exhibit even one iota of adult responsibility when it comes to paying for their feral 'needs?'

[kandace]

I will certainly toss out all of my misprinted history books.

I actually thought that the US forces that landed on Normandy beach, were the force that smashed Hitler within months after the landing.

And the 200 plus homicides in Baltimore each year are another myth about crime?

Thanks for enlightening me.

The Germans lost 5 million men fighting on tthe Eastern Front with the USSR, about 80 to 90 percent of all Wermacht casualties. The US military was the mop up squad.

And there is an interesting link between crime in Baltimore and other cities and the documentary that is the subject of this thread: America has never produced a Black businessman with a personal net worth of $1 billion. Entertainment moguls such as Oprah and Bob Johnson don't count, as entertainment is radically different from business in general.

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

Hitler's first blunder with Barbarossa was not launching in spring. He got tied up sorting out loose ends and didn't begin till summer. But big powers have traditionally underestimated the Russians. The Japanese in Manchuria had their hat handed to them in the 30's by Zhukov, the Russian victor of Stalingrad (which explains why they never tried it again):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol

Someone on the thread was saying that the war for the Germans was a matter of Russian attrition. Any country with Japan on one end and Finland on the other is one massive land mass.

The three Russian tank armies that counterattacked in November 1942 and encircled Stalingrad had been watching the traditional enemy, Japan, from Manchuria's border. They were well trained in winter warfare and left for the east when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. After Japan tied up with the U.S., Commonwealth, China and the Dutch, the Russians didn't the worry about them very much.

The Germans had Romanian, Hungarian, Croatian and Italian troops defending the flanks, guess where the Shock armies attacked, both north and south of the city.

[ms maggie]

So little time so much bullshiite.

In 1913 the fascists adopted legislation in order to "soak the rich". Find someone who works for a living, tell them to show their paycheck and bingo, whoomp there it is, deductions to pay the "income" and social security taxes.

Now Obama gets ready to levy a 2nd soak the rich tax which, just like its 1913 predecessor will be passed on to the middle class and the poor.

When will you people learn?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

.

You make no sense. Fascism hadn't even been thought of in 1913. So now you want to retro-label your (many) imagined boogiemen. Dear God, get some meds, get laid, do something in lieu of slobbering your foolishness.

[Wild Eyed Southern Boy]

The Germans lost 5 million men fighting on tthe Eastern Front with the USSR, about 80 to 90 percent of all Wermacht casualties. The US military was the mop up squad.

Really?

The guys at Aachen, Hurtgen Forrest, the Ardennes and Normandy would probably argue that.

[BlandFood]

New York, San Francisco, Austin, Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles, Chattanooga, DC and it's suburbs...

LA 11.2%
NYC 8.8%
Chattanooga 8.1%
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...b19_story.html

Your boy is a drug damaged pos without a clue of what he's doing. DC would be 50% without the govt and beltway bandits