Is the Fiscal Cliff checkmate for Republicans?

[pickles]

People are going to hurt. Rich, poor and in between. But you are asking the wrong guy because I am not trying to keep my job in Washington, and more importantly, I have saved for this rainy day so I am prepared for whatever happens. I truly feel for those who will suffer the most, but this was inevitable. You can't keep spending what you don't have.

I agree that the sacrifice should be shared.

And part of that should be increased taxes on those who've benefited the most from the tax-holiday of the last 30 years.

And yes, unfortunately, so will the lower classes suffer w lower social services.

But you can't take one off the table and act like it's fair.

[CajunRaven]

For someone such as myself, who is not a Republican or a Democrat, and doesn't have much use for either, I find it disconcerting that no matter who wins, I get to pay. I lose no matter what. To hell with the federal government and their fiscal stupidity.

And this seems to be the real truth. No matter how much they argue over a few bucks, so to speak from the rich folks, they get no where near what they need to really start addressing the problem. So who really ends up paying. Just about anyone who earns income? They certainly won't cut spending as much as is needed to do anything of significance.

[pickles]

But then how would one meddle in Libya, Syria, Iran, etc., et al.?

I don't defend any of those actions.

Extend the list to Israel, Germany, Iraq, Afgahnistan, and Japan while you're at it. Or, you know, where we actually spend money.

[Byng]

Indeed it does Byng. If I were a republican, I would agree in principle to whatever revenue negotiations they end up with and then say, I won't vote for it until the spending cuts are laid out.

That's the only option they seem to have.

I could not agree more. But given the time restraints by both sides playing brinkmanship, then extend the Bush/Obama tax cuts for 90+% of Americans to safeguard the most vulnerable and then let us get down to the real work of cutting spending.

[flyboy56]

Therein lies the problem:

We shouldn't be an empire.

Cut "defense." Cut it drastically.

And then who will protect the oil that the free worlds need to keep their economies running so they can buy and sell their imports and exports? We provide security for other countries so they can focus on their economies. Besides, like the Panama Canal, we don't trust other countries to do the job.

[dsummoner]

I agree that the sacrifice should be shared.

And part of that should be increased taxes on those who've benefited the most from the tax-holiday of the last 30 years.

And yes, unfortunately, so will the lower classes suffer w lower social services.

But you can't take one off the table and act like it's fair.

Benefited the most? That would be the looter classes from which the purported adults don't have to exhibit one iota of adult responsibility.

[pickles]

Benefited the most? That would be the looter classes from which the purported adults don't have to exhibit one iota of adult responsibility.

Where's the wealth created in this country over the last 30 years gone?

Yeah, benefited the most.

[dsummoner]

I don't defend any of those actions.

Extend the list to Israel, Germany, Iraq, Afgahnistan, and Japan while you're at it. Or, you know, where we actually spend money.

Actual money was and still is being spent on meddling in Libya, Syria and Iran. Of course, given the '**** yeah, 'mericah and 'mocracy and 'fender of free world and stuffs' foreign policy of the US, irrespective of administration, there is little 'hope for change.'

[SemiAuto]

$8 Trillion annually? Rubbish. The whole national debt is $16 Trillion. So every year we need $8 Trillion for entitlements? Think about that for a minute.

Yes. In the real world, liabilities are put on the books when they are made and not when they come due. The government doesn't do things that way.

If I hired you today and promised you X amount of benefits then I would have to account for those benefits now. If the government legislates you X amount of benefits today it does not account for them now, it only accounts for them when the come due.

Now some will come along and say, "Since the government isn't obliged to keep future entitlements intact then they don't have to account for them now because some future congress/president may revoke them." That is rubbish. If you don't want to account for them now then remove the benefit now. But nobody wants to do that. If the true costs of government were transparently calculated then people would be appalled by the real cost of it. On the other side, if the government tried to actually cut these unsustainable benefits then the politicians that did so would get demonized and thrown out of office.

So this game of cooking the books get played.

[pickles]

And then who will protect the oil that the free worlds need to keep their economies running so they can buy and sell their imports and exports? We provide security for other countries so they can focus on their economies. Besides, like the Panama Canal, we don't trust other countries to do the job.

We could be energy independent, or mostly, pretty soon, if we should true national will for it. And I don't mean drill baby, drill either.

The true problem for us is we're like the Roman Empire at this point, and if we stop controlling the world it will go to hell, and it will hurt us just as much as it hurts anybody else.

[pickles]

Actual money was and still is being spent on meddling in Libya, Syria and Iran. Of course, given the '**** yeah, 'mericah and 'mocracy and 'fender of free world and stuffs' foreign policy of the US, irrespective of administration, there is little 'hope for change.'

Well I agree it's not a partisan issue.

[flyboy56]

Why? You need both so do both. This "you first" attitude would embarrass a reasonable grade-schooler.

So this is how you managed your household? Spend more, go get a job. Spend even more, send one of your kids out to get a job. I'm sure Washington can come up with some programs that are just not needed. I just wonder if anyone has even sat down and looked at all the programs that exist today to see which ones are not needed. This is what most responsible families do. Again, everyone, including reasonable grade-schoolders should be taught that they can't spend more than they make. If most Americans feel the way you do, then I my worry concerning America is justified.

[MDvet]

Ok, so where do you start cutting?

PBS?

Now where does the other 99.6% come from?

From the GAO report, might not be whole 99.6%, but have to start

Agriculture Reducing some farm program payments could result in savings from $800 million over 10 years to up to $5 billion

Defense DOD should assess costs and benefits of overseas military presence options before committing to costly personnel realignments and construction plans, thereby possibly saving billions of dollars

Defense Total compensation approach is needed to manage significant growth in military personnel costs

Defense Employing best management practices could help DOD save money on its weapon systems acquisition programs

Defense More efficient management could limit future costs of DOD's spare parts inventory

Defense More comprehensive and complete cost data can help DOD improve the cost-effectiveness of sustaining weapon systems

Defense Improved corrosion prevention and control practices could help DOD avoid billions in unnecessary costs over time

Economic development Revising the essential air service program could improve efficiency and save over $20 million annually

Economic development Improved design and management of the universal service fund as it expands to support broadband could help avoid cost increases for consumers

The Corps of Engineers should provide Congress with project-level information on unobligated balances

Energy Improved management of federal oil and gas resources could result in approximately $1.75 billion over 10 years

General government Efforts to address governmentwide improper payments could result in significant cost savings

General government Promoting competition for the over $500 billion in federal contracts can potentially save billions of dollars over time

General government Applying strategic sourcing best practices throughout the federal procurement system could save billions of dollars annually

General government Adherence to new guidance on award fee contracts could improve agencies' use of award fees and produce savings

General government Agencies could realize cost savings of at least $3 billion by continued disposal of unneeded federal real property

General government Improved cost analyses used for making federal facility ownership and leasing decisions could save tens of millions of dollars
Primarily GSA, the central leasing agent for most agencies
General government The Office of Management and Budget's IT Dashboard reportedly has already resulted in $3 billion in savings and can further help identify opportunities to invest more efficiently in information technology

General government Increasing electronic filing of individual income tax returns could reduce IRS's processing costs and increase revenues by hundreds of millions of dollars

General government Using return on investment information to better target IRS enforcement could reduce the tax gap; for example, a 1 percent reduction would increase tax revenues by $3 billion

General government Better management of tax debt collection may resolve cases faster with lower IRS costs and increase debt collected

General government Broadening IRS's authority to correct simple tax return errors could facilitate correct tax payments and help IRS avoid costly, burdensome audits

General government Enhancing mortgage interest information reporting could improve tax compliance

General government More information on the types and uses of canceled debt could help IRS limit revenue losses on forgiven mortgage debt

General government Better information and outreach could help increase revenues by tens or hundreds of millions of dollars annually by addressing overstated real estate tax deductions

General government Revisions to content and use of Form 1098-T could help IRS enforce higher education requirements and increase revenues

General government Many options could improve the tax compliance of sole proprietors and begin to reduce their $68 billion portion of the tax gap

General government IRS could find additional businesses not filing tax returns by using third-party data, which show such businesses have billions of dollars in sales

General government Congress and IRS can help S corporations and their shareholders be more tax compliant, potentially increasing tax revenues by hundreds of millions of dollars each year

General government IRS needs an agencywide approach for addressing tax evasion among the at least 1 million networks of businesses and related entities

General government Opportunities exist to improve the targeting of the $6 billion research tax credit and reduce forgone revenue

General government Converting the new markets tax credit to a grant program may increase program efficiency and significantly reduce the $3.8 billion 5-year revenue cost of the program

General government Limiting the tax-exempt status of certain governmental bonds could yield revenue

General government Adjusting civil tax penalties for inflation potentially could increase revenues by tens of millions of dollars per year, not counting any revenues that may result from maintaining the penalties' deterrent effect

General government IRS may be able to systematically identify nonresident aliens reporting unallowed tax deductions or credits

General government Tracking undisbursed balances in expired grant accounts could facilitate the reallocation of scarce resources or the return of funding to the Treasury

Health Preventing billions in Medicaid improper payments requires sustained attention and action by CMS

Health Federal oversight over Medicaid supplemental payments needs improvement, which could lead to substantial cost savings

Health Better targeting of Medicare's claims review could reduce improper payments

Homeland security/Law enforcement Department of Homeland Security's management of acquisitions could be strengthened to reduce cost overruns and schedule and performance shortfalls

Homeland security/Law enforcement Improvements in managing research and development could help reduce inefficiencies and costs for homeland security

Homeland security/Law enforcement Validation of TSA's behavior-based screening program is needed to justify funding or expansion

Homeland security/Law enforcement More efficient baggage screening systems could result in about $470 million in reduced TSA personnel costs over the next 5 years

Homeland security/Law enforcement Clarifying availability of certain customs fee collections could produce a one-time savings of $640 million

Income security Social Security needs data on pensions from noncovered earnings to better enforce offsets and ensure benefit fairness, resulting in estimated $2.4-$2.9 billion savings over 10 years

International affairs Congress could pursue several options to improve collection of antidumping and countervailing duties

[dsummoner]

Where's the wealth created in this country over the last 30 years gone?

Yeah, benefited the most.

Wealth and income are not one in the same (and nor are the looter classes 'entitled' to the wealth and income of others). Wealth was created and destroyed, for the most part, by a series of bubble economies.

Benefited the most = not having to have adult responsibilities such as paying for one's own housing, paying for one's own food, paying for one's crapulent breeding, paying for one's own health care, paying for one's own transportation costs, etc., et al.

[ms maggie]

Shoul read carefully first that think about it.

from the article

.

Accrued expense = "An accounting expense recognized in the books before it is paid for. It is a liability, and is usually current. These expenses are typically periodic and documented on a company's balance sheet due to the high probability that they will be collected."

I did read it. And collecting $8 Trillion ANNUALLY is ridiculous? When the current level of spending is not $3 Trillion? So the total debt is $16 T, you collect $ 8 Trillion in 3 years and you are well in the black.

Honestly.

[dsummoner]

Well I agree it's not a partisan issue.

Democracy spreading (e.g. Bush) and R2P (e.g. Obama) lead to the same outcome. It is merely a manifestation of the broader paradigm of big government not being a partisan issue.

[pickles]

From the GAO report, might not be whole 99.6%, but have to start

Agriculture Reducing some farm program payments could result in savings from $800 million over 10 years to up to $5 billion

Defense DOD should assess costs and benefits of overseas military presence options before committing to costly personnel realignments and construction plans, thereby possibly saving billions of dollars

Defense Total compensation approach is needed to manage significant growth in military personnel costs

Defense Employing best management practices could help DOD save money on its weapon systems acquisition programs

Defense More efficient management could limit future costs of DOD's spare parts inventory

Defense More comprehensive and complete cost data can help DOD improve the cost-effectiveness of sustaining weapon systems

Defense Improved corrosion prevention and control practices could help DOD avoid billions in unnecessary costs over time

Economic development Revising the essential air service program could improve efficiency and save over $20 million annually

Economic development Improved design and management of the universal service fund as it expands to support broadband could help avoid cost increases for consumers

The Corps of Engineers should provide Congress with project-level information on unobligated balances

Energy Improved management of federal oil and gas resources could result in approximately $1.75 billion over 10 years

General government Efforts to address governmentwide improper payments could result in significant cost savings

General government Promoting competition for the over $500 billion in federal contracts can potentially save billions of dollars over time

General government Applying strategic sourcing best practices throughout the federal procurement system could save billions of dollars annually

General government Adherence to new guidance on award fee contracts could improve agencies' use of award fees and produce savings

General government Agencies could realize cost savings of at least $3 billion by continued disposal of unneeded federal real property

General government Improved cost analyses used for making federal facility ownership and leasing decisions could save tens of millions of dollars
Primarily GSA, the central leasing agent for most agencies
General government The Office of Management and Budget's IT Dashboard reportedly has already resulted in $3 billion in savings and can further help identify opportunities to invest more efficiently in information technology

General government Increasing electronic filing of individual income tax returns could reduce IRS's processing costs and increase revenues by hundreds of millions of dollars

General government Using return on investment information to better target IRS enforcement could reduce the tax gap; for example, a 1 percent reduction would increase tax revenues by $3 billion

General government Better management of tax debt collection may resolve cases faster with lower IRS costs and increase debt collected

General government Broadening IRS's authority to correct simple tax return errors could facilitate correct tax payments and help IRS avoid costly, burdensome audits

General government Enhancing mortgage interest information reporting could improve tax compliance

General government More information on the types and uses of canceled debt could help IRS limit revenue losses on forgiven mortgage debt

General government Better information and outreach could help increase revenues by tens or hundreds of millions of dollars annually by addressing overstated real estate tax deductions

General government Revisions to content and use of Form 1098-T could help IRS enforce higher education requirements and increase revenues

General government Many options could improve the tax compliance of sole proprietors and begin to reduce their $68 billion portion of the tax gap

General government IRS could find additional businesses not filing tax returns by using third-party data, which show such businesses have billions of dollars in sales

General government Congress and IRS can help S corporations and their shareholders be more tax compliant, potentially increasing tax revenues by hundreds of millions of dollars each year

General government IRS needs an agencywide approach for addressing tax evasion among the at least 1 million networks of businesses and related entities

General government Opportunities exist to improve the targeting of the $6 billion research tax credit and reduce forgone revenue

General government Converting the new markets tax credit to a grant program may increase program efficiency and significantly reduce the $3.8 billion 5-year revenue cost of the program

General government Limiting the tax-exempt status of certain governmental bonds could yield revenue

General government Adjusting civil tax penalties for inflation potentially could increase revenues by tens of millions of dollars per year, not counting any revenues that may result from maintaining the penalties' deterrent effect

General government IRS may be able to systematically identify nonresident aliens reporting unallowed tax deductions or credits

General government Tracking undisbursed balances in expired grant accounts could facilitate the reallocation of scarce resources or the return of funding to the Treasury

Health Preventing billions in Medicaid improper payments requires sustained attention and action by CMS

Health Federal oversight over Medicaid supplemental payments needs improvement, which could lead to substantial cost savings

Health Better targeting of Medicare's claims review could reduce improper payments

Homeland security/Law enforcement Department of Homeland Security's management of acquisitions could be strengthened to reduce cost overruns and schedule and performance shortfalls

Homeland security/Law enforcement Improvements in managing research and development could help reduce inefficiencies and costs for homeland security

Homeland security/Law enforcement Validation of TSA's behavior-based screening program is needed to justify funding or expansion

Homeland security/Law enforcement More efficient baggage screening systems could result in about $470 million in reduced TSA personnel costs over the next 5 years

Homeland security/Law enforcement Clarifying availability of certain customs fee collections could produce a one-time savings of $640 million

Income security Social Security needs data on pensions from noncovered earnings to better enforce offsets and ensure benefit fairness, resulting in estimated $2.4-$2.9 billion savings over 10 years

International affairs Congress could pursue several options to improve collection of antidumping and countervailing duties

And very little of that is actually cuts.

It's accounting just like the GOP, rightfully, complains that Democrats do: "We won't cut anything. We'll just be more ineffecient."

Well, it's ineffecient for a reason, and it isn't solely b/c it's public sector.

Let's talk about real cuts. That have a chance of getting through Congress.

[pickles]

Democracy spreading (e.g. Bush) and R2P (e.g. Obama) lead to the same outcome. It is merely a manifestation of the broader paradigm of big government not being a partisan issue.

I agree but it wasn't just the last two Pres. We've been doing this since WWI.

[Byng]

We could be energy independent, or mostly, pretty soon, if we should true national will for it. And I don't mean drill baby, drill either.

The true problem for us is we're like the Roman Empire at this point, and if we stop controlling the world it will go to hell, and it will hurt us just as much as it hurts anybody else.

Until the world finds an alternative fuel for the worlds transportation system that does not rely on petroleum products, America will never be energy independent at least not at a price most would/could afford to pay.

[ms maggie]

Yes. In the real world, liabilities are put on the books when they are made and not when they come due. The government doesn't do things that way.

If I hired you today and promised you X amount of benefits then I would have to account for those benefits now. If the government legislates you X amount of benefits today it does not account for them now, it only accounts for them when the come due.

Now some will come along and say, "Since the government isn't obliged to keep future entitlements intact then they don't have to account for them now because some future congress/president may revoke them." That is rubbish. If you don't want to account for them now then remove the benefit now. But nobody wants to do that. If the true costs of government were transparently calculated then people would be appalled by the real cost of it. On the other side, if the government tried to actually cut these unsustainable benefits then the politicians that did so would get demonized and thrown out of office.

So this game of cooking the books get played.

I know how a balance sheet works. You look at short term liabilities differently than long term liabilities. Short term is what affects cash flow, not long term.

Think about your own finances. When you look at your mortgage in terms of your annual budget, do you look at what is due in the fiscal year, or the whole nut?