View Poll Results: Did Justice Roberts engage in judicial tyranny when upholding Obamacare as a tax?

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Thread: Did Justice Roberts engage in judicial tyranny when upholding Obamacare as a tax?

  1. #1
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    Default Did Justice Roberts engage in judicial tyranny when upholding Obamacare as a tax?

    I believe it is now an established fact that Justice Roberts does not support our Constitution, and particularly that part which declares our Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and only those laws which are made in pursuance thereof are included as being the “supreme law of the land“


    Keep in mind that the fight against Obamacare is not about a law which one likes or dislikes. The fight is about preserving the very foundation of our constitutionally limited “Republican Form of Government”, and whether or not Obamacare is in harmony with the legislative intent of our Constitution, or an act of legislative and judicial tyranny which defies the very provisions of our Constitution. That is what this fight is about.


    Justice Roberts has yet to explain when the people of the United States debated granting power to Congress to enter their States and regulate their health care needs and choices, and then granted such power under Article V of our Constitution which is the only lawful way to grant new powers to Congress. And this provision requires consent of the governed by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof.


    The irrefutable fact is, a majority of the various States have officially rejected Obamacare by filing suit against it. And yet, Justice Roberts ignores that part of our Constitution requiring consent of the governed under Article V and asserts the People of the United States consented to Obamacare when granting power to Congress to lay and collect taxes, even though our founders were all in agreement that the power of taxation is tied to and limited by the subjoined list of particulars appearing beneath Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1.


    Was Justice Robert unaware of our founders expressed agreement that the taxing authority is limited to the specific grants of powers beneath Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1?


    And just what did our founders say with regard to this provision? Well, let our founding fathers speak for themselves.


    In Federalist No. 83, and with regard to Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1, Hamilton, in crystal clear language, refers to a “specification of particulars” which “evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority“. Hamilton writes:


    "...the power of Congress...shall extend to certain enumerated cases. This specification of particulars evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended..."


    And Madison, in No. 41 Federalist writes with regard to the meaning of “general welfare“:


    "It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes...to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor [the anti federalists] for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction...But what color can this objection have, when a specification of the object alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not ever separated by a longer pause than a semicolon?...For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power...But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning...is an absurdity."


    Likewise, in the Virginia ratification Convention Madison explains the general welfare phrase as follows to gain ratification of the constitution: "the powers of the federal government are enumerated; it can only operate in certain cases; it has legislative powers on defined and limited objects, beyond which it cannot extend its jurisdiction."[3 Elliots 95] [also see Nicholas, 3 Elliot 443 regarding the general welfare clause, which he pointed out "was united, not to the general power of legislation, but to the particular power of laying and collecting taxes...."]


    Similarly , George Mason, in the Virginia ratification Convention informs the convention


    "The Congress should have power to provide for the general welfare of the Union, I grant. But I wish a clause in the Constitution, with respect to all powers which are not granted, that they are retained by the states. Otherwise the power of providing for the general welfare may be perverted to its destruction.".[3 Elliots 442]


    For this very reason the Tenth Amendment was quickly ratified and adopted to intentionally put to rest any question whatsoever regarding the general welfare clause, and thereby cut off the pretext to allow Congress or the courts to extended the federal government’s powers via the wording contained in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1.


    The bottom line is, Justice Roberts engaged in judicial tyranny when asserting the People of the united States granted authority to Congress to adopt the powers to be exercised under Obamacare, when they granted power to Congress to “lay and collect taxes“.


    Are we to submit to this judicial tyranny and cave in to a federal government acting in rebellion to our written Constitution and its defined and limited powers? If so, our children and grand children will pay an agonizing price for our reluctance to forcefully confront domestic enemies who have seized political power and now act in concert to overthrow our constitutionally limited Republican Form of Government.




    JWK


    America we have a problem! We have a group of DOMESTIC ENEMIES who have managed to seize political power and whose mission is in fact to bring “change” to America ___ the dismantling of our military defensive power; the allowance of our borders to be overrun by foreign invaders, the diluting of our election process by allowing ineligible persons to vote; the circumvention of our Republican Form of Government which is now replaced with a 12 member committee vested with power to make law; the destruction of our manufacturing capabilities; the transferring of America’s technology to hostile foreign nations; the strangulation of our agricultural industry and ability to produce food under the guise of environmental necessity; the destruction of our nation’s health care delivery system, the taking of private property for purposes other than “public use”; the interference with our ability to develop our natural resources, namely oil, coal and natural gas to fuel our economy; the looting of both our federal treasury and a mandatory retirement pension fund; the brainwashing of our nation’s children in government operated schools; the trashing of our nation’s traditions and moral values; the creation of an iron fisted control unauthorized by our written Constitution over America’s businesses and industries; the devaluation of our nation’s currency, and, the future enslavement of our children and grand children via unbridled debt and inflation, not to mention an iron fisted government which intends to rule their very lives!

  2. #2
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    Obamacare stems from the conservatives.

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    Roberts found a legal loophole. Instead of calling it a penalty for those who refuse to buy insurance they will be paying taxes. I say potato you say potatoe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindelwald View Post
    Obamacare stems from the conservatives.
    If you are referring to Romneycare, you are forgetting the difference. Republicans believe states should administer a healthcare program and not the federal government. This was the biggest sticking point surrounding Obamacare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindelwald View Post
    Obamacare stems from the conservatives.
    Romney is a conservative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlandFood
    Romney is a conservative?
    Who knows? He never could seem to be able to make up his mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindelwald View Post
    Who knows? He never could seem to be able to make up his mind.
    Between him and Bobo yeah he would be but so would Mao but compared to any other with a track record of actually being a conservative........

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    Roberts turned out to be just another inside the Beltway hypocrite. You can bet your tuccis that if he and his family would be covered by this health care law he would have voted the other way. But he and the rest of the federal government, all three branches are not covered by it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha Beach View Post
    Roberts turned out to be just another inside the Beltway hypocrite. You can bet your tuccis that if he and his family would be covered by this health care law he would have voted the other way. But he and the rest of the federal government, all three branches are not covered by it.
    What is that supposed to mean?

    The Federal government already makes health insurance available to its employees, and Roberts has the same right to buy that insurance as the rest of the federal workforce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyboy56 View Post
    Roberts found a legal loophole. Instead of calling it a penalty for those who refuse to buy insurance they will be paying taxes. I say potato you say potatoe.
    I found no “legal loophole” in Roberts opinion. In fact, Roberts never identified the specific tax which may be used to tax those who do not have federal approved health insurance. He merely indicated it may be collected with other taxes laid upon incomes.

    Congress has power to lay and collect a number of specifically identified taxes: Duties, Imposts, and Excises, all of which must be uniform throughout the United States as stated in the very provision granting this power to Congress. Congress may also lay and collect direct taxes, but “…no Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.” Additionally, our Constitution declares Congress has power to “lay and collect taxes on incomes …without apportionment.

    So, which taxing power is Roberts referring to? Roberts never answered this question but merely indicated the individual mandate tax levied upon those failing to have federally approved health insurance is to be collected along with income taxes.

    We can immediately exclude imposts and duties as being the taxing power allowing the individual mandate tax because imposts and duties are taxes imposed on the import or export of goods.

    And in reference to the power to lay and collect excise taxes, excise taxes are taxes levied upon the manufacture, sale, or consumption of goods, or upon licenses to pursue certain occupations, or upon a privilege granted by government such as a corporate granted charter. I cannot imagine Roberts hanging his hat on this power of taxation as authorizing Obama’s individual mandate tax.

    And with reference to the power to lay and collect taxes on “incomes” without apportionment, this taxing power requires a realization of profits or gains which then becomes the subject of taxation. But the subject of taxation under the individual mandate is not a profit or gain, collectively called “income”. The subject matter being taxed is a failure to have federally approved health insurance and obviously excludes this taxing power as authorizing Obamacare.

    But we still have Congress’ power to lay and collect direct taxes, and these taxes by our Constitution, requires an apportioning of the tax which Obamacare’s individual mandate tax fails to do.


    Until the specific constitutionally authorized tax is identified which would meet its own taxing limitations when used to tax those who refuse to obtain federally approved health insurance, the individual mandate levy cannot be enforced, i.e., which freaken tax can be levied upon those who do not obtain federally approved health insurance __ an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, or a direct tax? Which freaken tax is it Mr. Roberts? Are you inventing a new tax?

    JWK

    [size=4]
    Obamacare by consent of the governed (Article 5) our amendment process. Tyranny by a majority vote in Congress or a Supreme Court's majority vote

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    Did I miss any mentioning of the Commerce Clause in your post?

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    For the record Johnwk, I oppose most of Obamacare like forcing people to pay or get "taxed." I do like the pre-existing condition. But I am a firm believer that only states should run a universal health care program and not the federal government. And states could then mandate everyone buy into healthcare insurance. The same program Romney helped to create with Democrats in Massachusetts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyboy56 View Post
    For the record Johnwk, I oppose most of Obamacare like forcing people to pay or get "taxed." I do like the pre-existing condition. But I am a firm believer that only states should run a universal health care program and not the federal government. And states could then mandate everyone buy into healthcare insurance. The same program Romney helped to create with Democrats in Massachusetts.

    I appreciate your response and explaining what you support. But I am more interested in Roberts’ opinion which not only defies the defined and limited powers granted to Congress listed in our federal Constitution, but contradicts the true intentions and meaning of our Constitution as expressed during its framing and ratification process.


    JWK


    "The Constitution is the act of the people, speaking in their original character, and defining the permanent conditions of the social alliance; and there can be no doubt on the point with us, that every act of the legislative power contrary to the true intent and meaning of the Constitution, is absolutely null and void. ___ Chancellor James Kent, in his Commentaries on American Law (1858)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlandFood View Post
    Between him and Bobo yeah he would be but so would Mao but compared to any other with a track record of actually being a conservative........
    It is November 28, 2012 10:05am, when are you every going to quit whining?

  15. #15
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    Default Did Justice Roberts invent a new federal tax in his Obamacare opinion?

    It is very scary that those who voted "No" in the poll do not believe the Roberts’ opinion is judicial tyranny. Aside from that there may still be hope!

    No poster who voted “No” offered a cogent defense of Roberts’ opinion nor identified and elaborated upon which constitutionally authorized tax [an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, or a direct tax] may be levied upon those who fail to purchase federally approved health insurance. Did Justice Roberts invent a new tax not mentioned in our Constitution which he asserts can be levied by our federal government? And, what authority listed beneath Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1, may be resorted to for which Congress was granted power to lay and collect taxes?

    Since these questions have yet to be answered by those who voted “No”, it is reasonable to believe they may change their opinion when they realize the Roberts’ opinion circumvents the defined and limited powers granted to Congress by our Constitution, and that is within the definition of tyranny!


    JWK


    Obamacare by consent of the governed (Article 5) our amendment process. Tyranny by a majority vote in Congress or a Supreme Court's majority vote


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phineas Finn View Post
    What is that supposed to mean?

    The Federal government already makes health insurance available to its employees, and Roberts has the same right to buy that insurance as the rest of the federal workforce.
    It means that if Obamacare was any gd good the legisators who passed it would have made sure they were first in line to be covered by it instead of exempting themselves and all other federal employees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha Beach View Post
    It means that if Obamacare was any gd good the legisators who passed it would have made sure they were first in line to be covered by it instead of exempting themselves and all other federal employees.
    Christ, an other fool (or another liar). The Affordable Care Act is not insurance that you need to be "first in line for"; people who already have insurance do not need to do anything, and since Congress is already covered under Federal program, we'll all just keep what we have.

    Please stop spreading lies and misinformation.

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    I believe there is a case working its way through the system now which is asking obamacare to be simply nullified based on the fact that the version of obamacare which was rammed through did not originate in the House.

    the version of obamacare on the books originated in the Senate. Article 1 section 7 states:

    All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills

    in other words, Roberts set up obamacare to be smashed into dust. Now we just have to wait until the case weaves its way to the SCOTUS....

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    Roberts did not engage in any tyranny. He presided on a case before the court. You take your case to the Supremes and take your chances.

    If you remember, he stated that he did not judge the wisdom of the law but that as a tax, it would be constitutional but otherwise, he would have taken issue with it. Remember, the Prez and everyone screamed about it not being a tax. I take Roberts word that it walked a duck...etc

    If you want to get the law changed, vote out the clowns and get it changed or bring it back through the courts and nail it on some technicality.

    But, as established as a tax, it is the law of the land!

  20. #20
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    Did Justice Roberts engage in judicial tyranny when upholding Obamacare as a tax?

    Yes ! If you hate Obama and Obamacare.

    No ! If you like Obama and Obamacare.

    Was that a trick question ?

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