Did Justice Roberts engage in judicial tyranny when upholding Obamacare as a tax?

[Contumacious]

You continue to make stupid statements about something you clearly don't understand.

The Affordable Care Act is not an insurance plan. No one signs up (or is forced to sign up) for "Obama Care," as if it were Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

The law requires companies over a certain size to offer health insurance to its employees. That insurance must meet certain coverage standards. If the federal government did not already make health insurance available to its employees, the ACA would require it to do so.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...fact-checking/

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medic...hamendment.asp

re·quire
[ri-kwahyuh r] Show IPA verb, re·quired, re·quir·ing.

verb (used with object)
1.
to have need of; need: He requires medical care.

2.
to call on authoritatively; order or enjoin to do something: to require an agent to account for money spent.

3.
to ask for authoritatively or imperatively; demand.

4.
to impose need or occasion for; make necessary or indispensable: The work required infinite patience.

5.
to call for or exact as obligatory; ordain: The law requires annual income-tax returns. "

.

[Phineas Finn]

re·quire
[ri-kwahyuh r] Show IPA verb, re·quired, re·quir·ing.

verb (used with object)
1.
to have need of; need: He requires medical care.

2.
to call on authoritatively; order or enjoin to do something: to require an agent to account for money spent.

3.
to ask for authoritatively or imperatively; demand.

4.
to impose need or occasion for; make necessary or indispensable: The work required infinite patience.

5.
to call for or exact as obligatory; ordain: The law requires annual income-tax returns. "

.

Government, our families, life in general all require much of adult members of any society. A grown up could accept that.

I see no other point in your post other than your usual declaration of immaturity and self-absorption.

[Phineas Finn]

So, I won't incur a financial penalty if I don't want to participate in purchasing health care coverage?

Would you care to make a relevant comment?

Of course you'll incur a penalty if you don't have health insurance; that fact has nothing to do with all these absurd statements about tyranny.

[johnwk]

Would you care to make a relevant comment?

Of course you'll incur a penalty if you don't have health insurance; that fact has nothing to do with all these absurd statements about tyranny.

My old and tattered student law dictionary defines tyranny as:

“The violation of those laws which regulate the division and the exercise of the sovereign power of the state. It is a violation of its constitution. See DESPOTISM.” ___ Bouviers Law Dictionary 1925-28


Now, would you care to quote from Roberts’ opinion in which he addresses (A), (B) and (C)?

(A)

identified the constitutionally authorized tax [an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, or a direct tax] which may be levied upon those who fail to purchase federally approved health insurance.

(B)

identified which grant of authority beneath Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 can be pointed to which authorizes an assumed tax may be levied upon the people of Florida, or any State, who do not have federally approved health insurance?

(C)
And provide the time period when the people of the United States debated granting power to Congress to enter their States and regulate their health care needs and choices, and then granted such power under Article V of our Constitution which is the only lawful way to grant new powers to Congress

JWK



Obamacare by consent of the governed (Article 5) our amendment process. Tyranny by a majority vote in Congress or a Supreme Court's majority vote

[Phineas Finn]

My old and tattered student law dictionary defines tyranny as:

“The violation of those laws which regulate the division and the exercise of the sovereign power of the state. It is a violation of its constitution. See DESPOTISM.” ___ Bouviers Law Dictionary 1925-28


Now, would you care to quote from Roberts’ opinion in which he addresses (A), (B) and (C)?

(A)

identified the constitutionally authorized tax [an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, or a direct tax] which may be levied upon those who fail to purchase federally approved health insurance.

(B)

identified which grant of authority beneath Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 can be pointed to which authorizes an assumed tax may be levied upon the people of Florida, or any State, who do not have federally approved health insurance?

(C)
And provide the time period when the people of the United States debated granting power to Congress to enter their States and regulate their health care needs and choices, and then granted such power under Article V of our Constitution which is the only lawful way to grant new powers to Congress.

You can continue to post meaningless questions until the end of time and they won't change a thing or convince anyone other than your fellow tin-foil-hat squad members that your alleged tyranny is real.

Why do you keep pretending that this is the mid-nineteenth century and that 100 plus years of Court decisions haven't rendered your arguments foolish and borderline delusional?

Roberts did not need to identify a tax beyond his majority opinion that this was not a direct tax or a capitation; no new authority needed to be granted; and Congress has not entered into the States to regulate their healthcare.

From the Roberts decision, page 41:

A tax on going without health insurance does not fall within any recognized category of direct tax. It is not a capitation. Capitations are taxes paid by every person, "without regard to property, profession, or any other circumstance." Hylton, supra, at 175 (opinion of Chase, J.) (emphasis altered). The whole point of the shared responsibility payment is that it is triggered by specific circumstances—earning a certain amount of income but not obtaining health insurance. The payment is also plainly not a tax on the ownership of land or personal property. The shared responsibility payment is thus not a direct tax that must be apportioned among the several States.

Now, please, stop spamming this board with the same nonsense.

[johnwk]

You can continue to post meaningless questions until the end of time and they won't change a thing …

Meaningless? Here we are on the third page of the thread and of those posters who believe the Roberts’ opinion is not judicial tyranny, not one has stepped forward and identified the constitutionally authorized tax [an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, or a direct tax] which can be levied upon those who fail to purchase federally approved health insurance and be within the limitations of the specific tax identified. Nor has any poster pointed to a specific power granted to Congress found beneath Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 __ the clause granting power to Congress to lay and collect taxes __ which was intended to, or even remotely thought by the Founders, to be a grant of power allowing Congress to enter the states and require the people therein to purchase federally approved health insurance.

Additionally, not one of the posters mentioned above has established when the people of the United States debated granting power to Congress to enter their States and regulate their health care needs and choices, and then granted such power under Article V of our Constitution which is the only lawful way to grant new powers to Congress and requires consent of the governed by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof.

And why are these questions important?

They are important because the definition of tyranny is defined as, “The violation of those laws which regulate the division and the exercise of the sovereign power of the state. It is a violation of its constitution. See DESPOTISM.” ___ Bouviers Law Dictionary 1925-28

Why would any freedom loving person in America not see Obamacare as being legislative tyranny backed up by judicial tyranny when Obamacare infringes upon a fundamental right of mankind ___ the inalienable right of people being free to make their own choices and decisions regarding their health care needs? And why do so many women who want the government out of their womb, embrace Obamacare which is intended to assume total control over their entire body? Do they not realize what they are embracing when they give thumbs up to Obamacare?

Roberts did not need to identify a tax beyond his majority opinion that this was not a direct tax or a capitation; no new authority needed to be granted; and Congress has not entered into the States to regulate their healthcare.

From the Roberts decision, page 41:

A tax on going without health insurance does not fall within any recognized category of direct tax. It is not a capitation. Capitations are taxes paid by every person, "without regard to property, profession, or any other circumstance." Hylton, supra, at 175 (opinion of Chase, J.) (emphasis altered). The whole point of the shared responsibility payment is that it is triggered by specific circumstances—earning a certain amount of income but not obtaining health insurance. The payment is also plainly not a tax on the ownership of land or personal property. The shared responsibility payment is thus not a direct tax that must be apportioned among the several States.

Now, please, stop spamming this board with the same nonsense.

On page 41 which you quote, Roberts suggests the tax levied upon those who fail to have federally approved health insurance is not a direct tax. However, he does not identify which other tax, an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, may be levied upon those who fail to purchase federally approved health insurance and be within the limits of the taxing authority resorted to.

It is also interesting to note that in the quote you provide Roberts also eliminates a tax being laid upon incomes without apportioning it! The fact is, the “power to lay and collect taxes on incomes … without apportionment” is “triggered“ by a realization of profits or gains which then becomes the subject of taxation. But the subject of taxation under the individual mandate is not a profit or gain, collectively called income. The subject matter being taxed under Obamacare is a failure to have federally approved health insurance which triggers the tax and not profits, gains or income, and thus, this tax is obviously excluded as the taxing power allowed by our Constitution to be levied upon those who do not have federally approved health insurance.

And in reference to the power to lay and collect excise taxes, excise taxes are taxes levied upon the manufacture, sale, or consumption of goods, or upon licenses to pursue certain occupations, or upon a privilege granted by government such as a corporate granted charter. I cannot imagine Roberts suggesting this power of taxation may be used to levy a tax upon those who do not have federally approved health insurance.

Finally, we can also exclude imposts and duties as being the taxing power allowing the levy upon individuals because imposts and duties are taxes imposed on the import or export of goods.

So, which freaken tax is it Phineas Finn?


JWK


If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon an Obama, welfare, food stamp, section 8 housing, college loan check, and now free Obamacare, we can blackmail them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ____ Obama’s Marxist Free Stuff Party, which is designed to establish a federal dictatorship and redistribute the incomes which wage earners, business and investors have worked to create.

[johnwk]

You're a raving lunatic.

No one has to identify a tax because Roberts already did so -- just not to your crazed satisfaction.

Pull you damn tin-foil hat down snug on your head and crawl back under the bed before the commies come and haul you away.

And which tax did Roberts identify, an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, or a direct tax, that may be levied upon those who fail to purchase federally approved health insurance and be within the limits of the taxing authority resorted to? The fact is, Justice Roberts never identified a specific tax as being constitutional which may be levied upon people who fail to have federally approved health insurance.


So, instead of defending your position and answering three fundamental questions, you find it necessary to address me with insulting remarks and name calling? What’s up with that?

And tell me, do you not support our Constitution’s amendment process under which consent of the governed is required prior to our federal government exercising new powers and can only be obtained via the approval of the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof? Is it not a fact that a majority of the States rejected Obamacare when 26 State’s filed suit against it in Court? Tell me Phineas Finn, when have the people of America debated granting power to Congress to enter the various united States to regulate and make decisions regarding the people’s health care needs and choices, and then granted such power under Article V of our Constitution as required?

Tell me Phineas Finn, why would any freedom loving person in America not see Obamacare as being legislative tyranny backed up by judicial tyranny when Obamacare infringes upon a fundamental right of mankind ___ the inalienable right of people being free to make their own choices and decisions regarding their health care needs? And why do so many women who want the government out of their womb, embrace Obamacare which is intended to assume total control over their entire body? Do they not realize what they are embracing when they give thumbs up to Obamacare?


JWK


If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon an Obama, welfare, food stamp, section 8 housing, college loan check, and now free Obamacare, we can blackmail them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ____ Obama’s Marxist Free Stuff Party, which is designed to establish a federal dictatorship and redistribute the incomes which wage earners, business and investors have worked to create.

[Terry K]

You're a raving lunatic.

No one has to identify a tax because Roberts already did so -- just not to your crazed satisfaction.

Pull you damn tin-foil hat down snug on your head and crawl back under the bed before the commies come and haul you away.

When you can't intellectually win the argument, resort to name calling, blaming Bush or class warfare.

If it was a tax, why did all of the Kool Aid drinking supporters of the bill call it a penalty when they crafted the 2000+ page cluster? That's right.....Speaker Pelosi told us they had to pass it in order to find out what was in it.

[johnwk]

Originally Posted by johnwk
So, instead of defending your position and answering three fundamental questions, you find it necessary to address me with insulting remarks and name calling? What’s up with that?

I call 'em as I see 'em.

I've answered the questions and defended my position, but apparently, the truth is swimming upstream against the Thorazine.

Arguing with you is like pulling the string on a Chatty Cathy doll.

I see you are still are obsessed with posting insulting remarks rather than having a dialog to ferret out the facts.

No. You haven’t answered the questions. You responded without providing the information requested. Now, would you care to quote from Roberts’ opinion in which he addresses (A), (B) and (C)?

(A)

identified the constitutionally authorized tax [an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, or a direct tax] that may be levied upon those who fail to purchase federally approved health insurance and be within the limits of the taxing authority resorted to?

(B)

identified which grant of authority beneath Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 __ the clause granting power to Congress to lay and collect taxes __ which was intended to, or even remotely thought by the Founders, to be a grant of power allowing Congress to enter the states and require the people therein to purchase federally approved health insurance.

(C)

identified the time period when the people of the United States debated granting power to Congress to enter the various united States and regulate their health care needs and choices, and then granted such power under Article V of our Constitution which is the only lawful way to grant new powers to Congress and requires the approval of the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof

Additionally, Phineas Finn, why would any freedom loving person in America not see Obamacare as being legislative tyranny backed up by judicial tyranny when Obamacare infringes upon a fundamental right of mankind ___ the inalienable right of people being free to make their own choices and decisions regarding their health care needs? And why do so many women who want the government out of their womb, embrace Obamacare which is intended to assume total control over their entire body? Do they not realize what they are embracing when they give thumbs up to Obamacare?

JWK


If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon an Obama, welfare, food stamp, section 8 housing, college loan check, and now free Obamacare, we can blackmail them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ____ Obama’s Marxist Free Stuff Party, which is designed to establish a federal dictatorship and redistribute the incomes which wage earners, business and investors have worked to create.

[johnwk]

When you can't intellectually win the argument, resort to name calling, blaming Bush or class warfare.

If it was a tax, why did all of the Kool Aid drinking supporters of the bill call it a penalty when they crafted the 2000+ page cluster? That's right.....Speaker Pelosi told us they had to pass it in order to find out what was in it.

And after Pelosi’s comment about having to pass it to find out what was in it, Democrat voters were not even outraged. Do they not even care to defend the most basic processes of our system of government? Do they not realize what they are embracing when they give thumbs up to their elected representatives voting to pass laws cooked up behind closed doors and they have no idea what is contained in such laws? Where is the outrage over such tyranny? Why would a voter, regardless of political party affiliation, not express their outrage at this vicious attack upon our system of government?


JWK




Today’s corrupted politics is all about the Benjamins, and which political party's leadership can put their hand deeper into the productive working person’s pocket.

[Terry K]

And after Pelosi’s comment about having to pass it to find out what was in it, Democrat voters were not even outraged. Do they not even care to defend the most basic processes of our system of government? Do they not realize what they are embracing when they give thumbs up to their elected representatives voting to pass laws cooked up behind closed doors and they have no idea what is contained in such laws? Where is the outrage over such tyranny? Why would a voter, regardless of political party affiliation, not express their outrage at this vicious attack upon our system of government?


JWK




Today’s corrupted politics is all about the Benjamins, and which political party's leadership can put their hand deeper into the productive working person’s pocket.

Why would any sane individual vote for an unknown individual into our Nation's highest office? Remember, it was Pelosi who certified Obama's eligibility......perhaps she first had to elect him in order to determine if he was eligible.......it's obvious he is not qualified to lead!

[Phineas Finn]

Why would any sane individual vote for an unknown individual into our Nation's highest office? Remember, it was Pelosi who certified Obama's eligibility......perhaps she first had to elect him in order to determine if he was eligible.......it's obvious he is not qualified to lead!

You continue to have problems with reality, hence your problem with what's obvious and what's fantasy.

[johnwk]

Originally Posted by Terry K
Why would any sane individual vote for an unknown individual into our Nation's highest office? Remember, it was Pelosi who certified Obama's eligibility......perhaps she first had to elect him in order to determine if he was eligible.......it's obvious he is not qualified to lead!

You continue to have problems with reality, hence your problem with what's obvious and what's fantasy.

The "reality" is, you continue to avoid explaining where Justice Roberts address (A), (B) and (C) in his written opinion.



(A)

identify the constitutionally authorized tax [an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, or a direct tax] that may be levied upon those who fail to purchase federally approved health insurance and be within the limits of the taxing authority resorted to.



(B)

identify which grant of authority beneath Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 __ the clause granting power to Congress to lay and collect taxes which was intentionally limited by a subjoined list of particulars__ which was even remotely thought by the Founders to be a grant of power allowing Congress to enter the states and require the people therein to purchase federally approved health insurance.


(C)

identify the time period when the people of the United States debated granting power to Congress to enter the various united States and regulate their health care needs and choices, and then granted such power under Article V of our Constitution which is the only lawful way to grant new powers to Congress and requires the approval of the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof


JWK



Obamacare by consent of the governed (Article 5) our amendment process. Tyranny by a majority vote in Congress or a Supreme Court's majority vote

[johnpolitics]

The "reality" is, you continue to avoid explaining where Justice Roberts address (A), (B) and (C) in his written opinion.



(A)

identify the constitutionally authorized tax [an impost, duty, excise, a tax upon incomes without apportioning it, or a direct tax] that may be levied upon those who fail to purchase federally approved health insurance and be within the limits of the taxing authority resorted to.



(B)

identify which grant of authority beneath Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 __ the clause granting power to Congress to lay and collect taxes which was intentionally limited by a subjoined list of particulars__ which was even remotely thought by the Founders to be a grant of power allowing Congress to enter the states and require the people therein to purchase federally approved health insurance.


(C)

identify the time period when the people of the United States debated granting power to Congress to enter the various united States and regulate their health care needs and choices, and then granted such power under Article V of our Constitution which is the only lawful way to grant new powers to Congress and requires the approval of the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof


JWK



Obamacare by consent of the governed (Article 5) our amendment process. Tyranny by a majority vote in Congress or a Supreme Court's majority vote

How do you think the court should rule on gay marriage?

[johnwk]

How do you think the court should rule on gay marriage?

The subject of the thread is Obamacare and Justice Roberts' opinion. How about ansering questions A, B, and C?


JWK




Obamacare by consent of the governed (Article 5) our amendment process. Tyranny by a majority vote in Congress or a Supreme Court's majority vote

[johnpolitics]

The subject of the thread is Obamacare and Justice Roberts' opinion. How about ansering questions A, B, and C?


JWK




Obamacare by consent of the governed (Article 5) our amendment process. Tyranny by a majority vote in Congress or a Supreme Court's majority vote

Gee I asked you a simple question out wonderment...

[johnwk]

Gee I asked you a simple question out wonderment...

Which has nothing to do with the thread.


JWK

If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon an Obama, welfare, food stamp, section 8 housing, college loan check, and now free Obamacare along with FREE BACON, we can blackmail them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ____ Obama’s Marxist Free Stuff Party, which is designed to establish a federal dictatorship and redistribute the incomes which wage earners, business and investors have worked to create.

[EmDot]

I don't care about A. B. or C., just tell me where and how I can get me some of that free Obamacare.

[johnpolitics]

Which has nothing to do with the thread.


JWK

If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon an Obama, welfare, food stamp, section 8 housing, college loan check, and now free Obamacare along with FREE BACON, we can blackmail them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ____ Obama’s Marxist Free Stuff Party, which is designed to establish a federal dictatorship and redistribute the incomes which wage earners, business and investors have worked to create.

I only respond to threads that interest me, not bitter rants.

[johnwk]

I don't care about A. B. or C., just tell me where and how I can get me some of that free Obamacare.

You must be talking about FREE BACON. If so, get in touch with THIS PERSON. She seems to know everything about getting free stuff.


JWK



Today’s corrupted politics is all about the Benjamins, and which political party's leadership can put their hand deeper into the productive working person’s pocket.