This stat makes Joe Cool very valuable

[Peej7245]

Apparently winning isn't all that it's purported to be.

Actually, "winning isn't all that it's purported..." seems to apply to Flacco and few others when you hear or read about Flacco.

When it comes to Flacco, the pundits are more concerned with style points (or lack thereof) than the end results.

[can you hear me now!]

I don't think most of you guys are aware that there are like somewhere around 14 or 15 starting quarterbacks in the league that have a better rating than Flacco. These include Josh Freeman, Russell Wilson, Alex Smith. He is an average qb with flashes of greatness. He is 17th in the league in touchdowns thrown. He has 2, count them, 2 more touchdowns than Mark Sanchez despite throwing the ball 40 more times. I don't know how you guys KNOW what Flacco would do without Cameron because Cam is all Flacco has ever known. Would his stats sky rocket with a different O.C.? Perhaps but we don't know that. Anybody who says otherwise is just full of crap. It's impossible to know. If you go by what we do know, again, an average qb with flashes of greatness.

more proof playing too much madden and fantasy football has reduced the football IQ of many fans....

9-2...that's the bottom line...and at the end of the day the only stat that really matters...

[OriginalColtsFan]

more proof playing too much madden and fantasy football has reduced the football IQ of many fans....

9-2...that's the bottom line...and at the end of the day the only stat that really matters...

These pseudo-scientific "geniuses" think that they can toss around meaningless stats as if they really show what a player is worth. The Combine is the perfect example of that pure meaningless pseudo-science. According to the Combine stats, Yamon Figurs was one of the best NFL players to ever come down the pike. 'Nuff said.

And LOL @ Alex Smith or any of the other duds listed by that Cam apologist as being better than Joe "because their stats prove they're better". It's comic relief, is all.

Peace.

[Peej7245]

... Flacco can and does make throws that 95% of QBs in the history of the NFL could not make. He has a big-time arm, and good accuracy.

Lots of throws he makes "look bad" but if you watch a replay, he is sticking with a target as long as he can, then putting the ball in a place that only his target could get to. Granted they would be incredible catches (see Torrey Smith in OT last week) or just overthrows. ...

In the SD game, to support your statement, Flacco threw 8 incompletions in the first half (panned by critics and fans alike as a "worse than nothing" game, blah, blah, blah). Let's look at them (ignoring the completions and running plays) shall we:

• Q1 (9:50) 1 and 10 - 45 yard pass down the right sideline that sailed just out of Boldin's reach. Next play, 16-yd run by Rice.
• Q1 (7:30) 3-10 - Dropped 11-yd pass by Boldin. AQ turned and the ball hit him in the chest. Next play, punt.
• Q1 (4:31) 2-7 - 15 yard pass over the middle to Boldin defensed well. Next play, 15 yard pass to Boldin on crossing pattern.
• Q1 (2:08) 1-10 - 40 yard pass into the end zone (looked like Torrey was double covered and bumped off his route at the 10 yard line. Next play, dropped by Jones.
• Q1 (2:03) 2-10 - 15 yard out pattern hit Jones in hands and fell for incompletion. Next play was a sack.

• Q2 (13:53) 3-10 - 13 yard out pattern to Torrey Smith tipped by undercutting safety (Wettle) and fell out of bounds and incomplete. Next play, punt.
• Q2 (2:20) 3-16 - 25 yard seam pass to Pita (flacco under pressure) just overthrown and incomplete. Next play, punt.
• Q2 (0:46) 2-25 - 20 yard incompletion down the right sideline. Flacco ran to the right to escape extrement pressure. While on a dead run, Flacco threw the ball away down the sideline and just out of bounds. Next play, 12 yard draw play.

So perhaps we are looking at a QB who did not perform as poorly as the raw stats (8-16) might suggest?

[RavingManiac]

Alex Smith is not a fair comparison.

Flacco can and does make throws that 95% of QBs in the history of the NFL could not make. He has a big-time arm, and good accuracy.


Lots of throws he makes "look bad" but if you watch a replay, he is sticking with a target as long as he can, then putting the ball in a place that only his target could get to. Granted they would be incredible catches (see Torrey Smith in OT last week) or just overthrows.

Smith's replacement (Coppernik or however you spell it) has a bigtime arm as well. Is he on the level of Flacco, I haven't seen enough to decide, but he has a better arm than Smith.

Joe Flacco wins games. That's all that matters.

IF Coppernik (??) starts losing, or gets a case of the "rookies" in the playoffs, you will see Smith back under center.

Why is Alex Smith not a fair comparison? Actually, I was not comparing Flacco to Alex Smith. I was trying to debate the statement that someone made earlier on this thread that the only thing that matters is winning. My response was "tell that to Alex Smith." Alex Smith took the team to the NFC championship game last year and he was not the reason his team lost. He was on fire this year and lost his job. My point is you can win but you also need the stats to go with it. Trent Dilfer is another good example. He won the super bowl yet he did not have great stats. He lost his job. You have to have good stats along with winning.

[RavingManiac]

Which would YOU as a fan prefer??

9-2 with a firm grasp on your division and a home track in the playoffs

OR

a QB with a 125 rating playing on a losing team???

Joe Flacco wins games, that is all that matters....

That has nothing to do with this debate. That's like me asking you "What would you prefer? A qb with a 125 rating and a 9-2 record or a qb with a rating of 82 and a 9-2 record." You missed the point. My point is Flacco is very average. Just look at his stats.

[OriginalColtsFan]

In the SD game, to support your statement, Flacco threw 8 incompletions in the first half (panned by critics and fans alike as a "worse than nothing" game, blah, blah, blah). Let's look at them (ignoring the completions and running plays) shall we:

• Q1 (9:50) 1 and 10 - 45 yard pass down the right sideline that sailed just out of Boldin's reach. Next play, 16-yd run by Rice.
• Q1 (7:30) 3-10 - Dropped 11-yd pass by Boldin. AQ turned and the ball hit him in the chest. Next play, punt.
• Q1 (4:31) 2-7 - 15 yard pass over the middle to Boldin defensed well. Next play, 15 yard pass to Boldin on crossing pattern.
• Q1 (2:08) 1-10 - 40 yard pass into the end zone (looked like Torrey was double covered and bumped off his route at the 10 yard line. Next play, dropped by Jones.
• Q1 (2:03) 2-10 - 15 yard out pattern hit Jones in hands and fell for incompletion. Next play was a sack.

• Q2 (13:53) 3-10 - 13 yard out pattern to Torrey Smith tipped by undercutting safety (Wettle) and fell out of bounds and incomplete. Next play, punt.
• Q2 (2:20) 3-16 - 25 yard seam pass to Pita (flacco under pressure) just overthrown and incomplete. Next play, punt.
• Q2 (0:46) 2-25 - 20 yard incompletion down the right sideline. Flacco ran to the right to escape extrement pressure. While on a dead run, Flacco threw the ball away down the sideline and just out of bounds. Next play, 12 yard draw play.

So perhaps we are looking at a QB who did not perform as poorly as the raw stats (8-16) might suggest?

Good post to provide context and perspective.

[RavingManiac]

more proof playing too much madden and fantasy football has reduced the football IQ of many fans....

9-2...that's the bottom line...and at the end of the day the only stat that really matters...

I love me some Madden. Why did Alex Smith lose his job? He did nothing but win the last two years. Why did Dilfer lose his job? Winning is not the only thing that matters. Anytime you can upgrade any position, you do it.

[RavingManiac]

These pseudo-scientific "geniuses" think that they can toss around meaningless stats as if they really show what a player is worth. The Combine is the perfect example of that pure meaningless pseudo-science. According to the Combine stats, Yamon Figurs was one of the best NFL players to ever come down the pike. 'Nuff said.

And LOL @ Alex Smith or any of the other duds listed by that Cam apologist as being better than Joe "because their stats prove they're better". It's comic relief, is all.

Peace.

Meaningless stats? have you fallen down recently and hit your head? I love it. How in the world do you compare nfl combine stats to real nfl career stats? Have you lost your mind? touchdown passes by a qb is a meaningless stat? Qb rating by a qb is a meaningless stat? Ints are a meaningless stat?

[Peej7245]

Good post to provide context and perspective.

Thank-ee, thank-ee.

I believe that if a knowledgeable fan would watch a game like this one, they might not make the kind of idiotic statements we hear out of ESPN or the NFL Network.

To your point: context:

• The long overthrows to Q and Torrey were on first down plays! Sounds like they took long shots to relax the defense. On the pass to Boldin, the ball was thrown at the sideline so the ONLY one who had a chance was Boldin.
  
• On the pass to Torrey Smith in the end zone, it again was a case of taking a shot down field but thrown in such a way as to not risk a turnover.

Just these two examples look to me like this is NOT a QB with no clue.

One thing I forgot to add was that if you look at the down and distance for some of these plays, you might wonder how the Ravens got there.

Several of the examples were after sacks or penalties.

[BiggSeth]

Why is Alex Smith not a fair comparison? Actually, I was not comparing Flacco to Alex Smith. I was trying to debate the statement that someone made earlier on this thread that the only thing that matters is winning. My response was "tell that to Alex Smith." Alex Smith took the team to the NFC championship game last year and he was not the reason his team lost. He was on fire this year and lost his job. My point is you can win but you also need the stats to go with it. Trent Dilfer is another good example. He won the super bowl yet he did not have great stats. He lost his job. You have to have good stats along with winning.

Why is Alex Smith not a fair comparison?

Alex Smith is a game manager, not a game changer. He does not have the "big arm" like Flacco.

Coaches like the guy who can put the ball in a bucket on the 15-yard out from the far hash. Smith does not make that throw. Flacco/Copernik(?) do.

when a coach has the choice between a game manager and a big arm, he takes the big arm most of the time.

Flacco wins games. that is all that matters.

[BiggSeth]

Why is Alex Smith not a fair comparison? Actually, I was not comparing Flacco to Alex Smith. I was trying to debate the statement that someone made earlier on this thread that the only thing that matters is winning. My response was "tell that to Alex Smith." Alex Smith took the team to the NFC championship game last year and he was not the reason his team lost. He was on fire this year and lost his job. My point is you can win but you also need the stats to go with it. Trent Dilfer is another good example. He won the super bowl yet he did not have great stats. He lost his job. You have to have good stats along with winning.

Again, Dilfer was a game manager who (if you remember) got the starting job after Tony banks (big arm, no talent) basically frustrated the coaching staff into benching him.

Remember in the first posession of the Superbowl, dilfer missed a wide open reciever (stokley??) streaking free and open down the near-hash sideline. I mean he missed horribly. Dilfer's job was to not turn the ball over, keep the defense rested and run the ball......Not as sexy as the bigtime throws you see from Flacco.

[can you hear me now!]

I love me some Madden. Why did Alex Smith lose his job? He did nothing but win the last two years. Why did Dilfer lose his job? Winning is not the only thing that matters. Anytime you can upgrade any position, you do it.

Smith hasn't lost his job at this point...

Dilfer caught lightning in a bottle here when he replaced Banks....what happened when Dilfer was let go? Grbac, Boller, McNair....lots of instability and wasted years....

you hate Flacco...I get that..it's misplaced, but you are entitled to hold your own opinions, no matter how out of touch with reality they are....

[can you hear me now!]

In the SD game, to support your statement, Flacco threw 8 incompletions in the first half (panned by critics and fans alike as a "worse than nothing" game, blah, blah, blah). Let's look at them (ignoring the completions and running plays) shall we:

• Q1 (9:50) 1 and 10 - 45 yard pass down the right sideline that sailed just out of Boldin's reach. Next play, 16-yd run by Rice.
• Q1 (7:30) 3-10 - Dropped 11-yd pass by Boldin. AQ turned and the ball hit him in the chest. Next play, punt.
• Q1 (4:31) 2-7 - 15 yard pass over the middle to Boldin defensed well. Next play, 15 yard pass to Boldin on crossing pattern.
• Q1 (2:08) 1-10 - 40 yard pass into the end zone (looked like Torrey was double covered and bumped off his route at the 10 yard line. Next play, dropped by Jones.
• Q1 (2:03) 2-10 - 15 yard out pattern hit Jones in hands and fell for incompletion. Next play was a sack.

• Q2 (13:53) 3-10 - 13 yard out pattern to Torrey Smith tipped by undercutting safety (Wettle) and fell out of bounds and incomplete. Next play, punt.
• Q2 (2:20) 3-16 - 25 yard seam pass to Pita (flacco under pressure) just overthrown and incomplete. Next play, punt.
• Q2 (0:46) 2-25 - 20 yard incompletion down the right sideline. Flacco ran to the right to escape extrement pressure. While on a dead run, Flacco threw the ball away down the sideline and just out of bounds. Next play, 12 yard draw play.

So perhaps we are looking at a QB who did not perform as poorly as the raw stats (8-16) might suggest?

these are the kinds of posts the drive the Flacco haters absolutely nuts...they hate facts and they hate having to admit that some times wr's play a part in the QB statistics....2 drops....catch those 2 and he moves to 10-16 with drives that continue....

unless Joe goes 24-25, throws for 400 yds and 6 TDs a game, certain people are just going to fail to see the bigger picture and just complain...

[RavingManiac]

Smith hasn't lost his job at this point...

Dilfer caught lightning in a bottle here when he replaced Banks....what happened when Dilfer was let go? Grbac, Boller, McNair....lots of instability and wasted years....

you hate Flacco...I get that..it's misplaced, but you are entitled to hold your own opinions, no matter how out of touch with reality they are....

This is where you guys are just too sensitive in my opinion. I do not hate Flacco. I am a Ravens fan. I am simply debating whether Flacco is an elite quarterback which most on here say he is. I think he is an average quaterback who can have elite games once in awhile. I threw out stats to prove my point. Where are the stats that prove he is elite? The only stat you guys can give stating that he is elite is his win loss record. If you go strictly on win loss record then Trent Dilfer was the best qb in the league in 2000. You can't go just by win loss record. Anyway, I in no way hate Joe. I am simply debating whether he is elite. I think he is too inconsistent at this point.

[OriginalColtsFan]

these are the kinds of posts the drive the Flacco haters absolutely nuts...they hate facts and they hate having to admit that some times wr's play a part in the QB statistics....2 drops....catch those 2 and he moves to 10-16 with drives that continue....

unless Joe goes 24-25, throws for 400 yds and 6 TDs a game, certain people are just going to fail to see the bigger picture and just complain...

Exactly. +1

(And even with THOSE type of stats, you can bet there'd be people saying: "Joe didn't make great throws; his WRs made great catches", or "He did that at home, but he'll never do it on the road", or "That D stunk; let's see him do that against a really GOOD D", etc. It's truly mind boggling how much warped logic they engage in.)

[Peej7245]

That has nothing to do with this debate. That's like me asking you "What would you prefer? A qb with a 125 rating and a 9-2 record or a qb with a rating of 82 and a 9-2 record." You missed the point. My point is Flacco is very average. Just look at his stats.

You have fallen into the "fantasy football" twilight zone!

The NFL does not give the Lombardi trophy to the team with the best stats. It gives it to the team that wins each game in the playoffs...and the QB of that winning team is the BEST QB in the NFL for that year!

Flacco has statistics that rank him in the middle of NFL QBs that is true. However, let's look at the context shall we?

How many of the QBs whose statistics rank above his can say the following:

• Plays top 10 defenses 6 to 10 times a year (13 in 2011 by the way)
• Plays most of his games outside and not in a dome
• Plays at least 6 games in late November and December (gusting winds, etc.)
• Plays on an Old School team that believs in a strong run game, field position and defense. This leads to a cautious attitude on offense, even as the offense opens up, that focuses on winning the game! (Look at Drew Brees over the last two weeks and all his mistakes, Matt Ryan and his 5 INT game, Brady and his 4 INT games, Rogers and his multi-int games, and so on and so on...)

If you consider a QB to be the sum of his statistics, Ryan Fitzpatrick should be at or near the top of your list all the time...but he will be sitting at home in January.

[Peej7245]

This is where you guys are just too sensitive in my opinion. I do not hate Flacco. I am a Ravens fan. I am simply debating whether Flacco is an elite quarterback which most on here say he is. I think he is an average quaterback who can have elite games once in awhile. I threw out stats to prove my point. Where are the stats that prove he is elite? The only stat you guys can give stating that he is elite is his win loss record. If you go strictly on win loss record then Trent Dilfer was the best qb in the league in 2000. You can't go just by win loss record. Anyway, I in no way hate Joe. I am simply debating whether he is elite. I think he is too inconsistent at this point.

I think we understand that you are a fan...however, every time someone uses the term "elite" I want to pull out the rest of my hair!

Just what is an "elite" QB?

• Manning: He has all the tools, but is 37 years old and has the advantage of playing in the defense-challenged AFC West.
  
• Brady: He is almost as old, has a great stable of receivers, but also has the advantage of playing against "matador" defenses and a team that surrendered 4 turnovers inside 5 minutes! Plus, one hard hit and he becomes Kyle Boller!
  
• Rogers: Great young player, but if anyone thinks he will leave Green Bay, they are crazy!
  
• Brees? Phillips? Are either of these guys playing on a 9-2 team?
  
• Ryan? Great QB with all the tools to be sure! However, has not even come close to winning a playoff game...talk to me after he does. Also, when the running game goes away and defenses concentrate on the passing game, he becomes Stony Case.

As to our Average | Above Average| Elite | Should not be allowed to even say "football" | [put your own adjective here] Joe Flacco, what more does he have to do?

This team is 9-2 with 6 of those wins within a single score (toughness) and with 4 of those wins and the Philly loss in which Flacco led 2nd half comebacks.

He has led the team to wins in shootout games, low scoring games, games where the running attack was overwhelming, games when the running attack was NOT overwhelming, games when his team was largely shut out for a half or three quarters...this guy is a winner!

Soooooo, what more do we fans want from this guy?????

[Peej7245]

these are the kinds of posts the drive the Flacco haters absolutely nuts...they hate facts and they hate having to admit that some times wr's play a part in the QB statistics....2 drops....catch those 2 and he moves to 10-16 with drives that continue....

unless Joe goes 24-25, throws for 400 yds and 6 TDs a game, certain people are just going to fail to see the bigger picture and just complain...

True and thank you for pointing it out...Really knowledgeable fans will look at each play and try to determine what REALLY happened.

The SI article earlier this week was a good one that looked at Flacco at home and on the road. It pointed out that even in pass completions there might have been a better target that would have resulted in more yards.

Perhaps Flacco IS more cautious on the road. Perhaps the playcalling is more cautious on the road. Perhaps the crowd noise does impact communication. However, there is no "perhaps" about the fact that they are 4-2 ON THE ROAD this season!

I forgot to add one thing: Look closely at some of his incompletions. Many of those misses were missed for a reason. In the Pittsburgh game, the Steelers had a "spy" underneath any out route forcing Flacco to throw the ball higher...sometimes, like the 7th or 8th interception in the SD game, Flacco was under pressure from the left more quickly than the routes allowed so he threw over Boldin's head at the side line. He kept the team in FG range rather than take a sack or risk an INT.

[OriginalColtsFan]

I forgot to add one thing: Look closely at some of his incompletions. Many of those misses were missed for a reason. In the Pittsburgh game, the Steelers had a "spy" underneath any out route forcing Flacco to throw the ball higher...sometimes, like the 7th or 8th interception in the SD game, Flacco was under pressure from the left more quickly than the routes allowed so he threw over Boldin's head at the side line. He kept the team in FG range rather than take a sack or risk an INT.

Absolutely. And once in a while a knowledgeable announcer will point out that the "incomplete" pass was actually an intentional THROW AWAY because there was no separation, etc. And that's exactly why some of these wannabe critics who simply point to stats as if they paint the real picture are just wasting bandwidth. They have no intention of really seeing anything; all they want to do is try to ram their pointless point home.

Now, theoretically, the same could be said about those of us who want Cam Cameron gone. The difference is, his schemes HAVE been looked at critically by people who know what they're looking at, and they came back with reports that were shocking. And those reports support what a lot of fans have been seeing for years now. And THAT'S why Cameron was on the hot seat! He didn't get on the hot seat for no reason. And all this Joe bashing is really just a smoke screen to try to hide Cameron's fault and displace the blame. It's not rocket science to see what's going on. PLUS anything that can be done to try to devalue Joe in the public eye (since, after all, the 21st century NFL is little more than perception anyway) to lower the amount they want to pay him wouldn't hurt the bottom line cause either. And as the Ravens love to point out (when it suits them) "It's not personal; it's only business".