This stat makes Joe Cool very valuable

[Captain Spaulding]

This is where you guys are just too sensitive in my opinion. I do not hate Flacco. I am a Ravens fan. I am simply debating whether Flacco is an elite quarterback which most on here say he is. I think he is an average quaterback who can have elite games once in awhile. I threw out stats to prove my point. Where are the stats that prove he is elite? The only stat you guys can give stating that he is elite is his win loss record. If you go strictly on win loss record then Trent Dilfer was the best qb in the league in 2000. You can't go just by win loss record. Anyway, I in no way hate Joe. I am simply debating whether he is elite. I think he is too inconsistent at this point.

This! This is exactly how I feel. I get so tired of hearing about Flacco being "elite", when it looks to most objective fans that he is simply not. Good... yes, "elite"... Haloti Ngata chance!

I am very thankful that the Ravens have him, and that he does not cost the team many games. I just can't get past the idea that many have that the Ravens win in spite of Joe, not particularly because of him. I find myself agreeing with that more often than not.

With any luck this will be the last year with Cameron, and hopefully we will see what he can do with another OC....

[Peej7245]

This! This is exactly how I feel. I get so tired of hearing about Flacco being "elite", when it looks to most objective fans that he is simply not. Good... yes, "elite"... Haloti Ngata chance!

I am very thankful that the Ravens have him, and that he does not cost the team many games. I just can't get past the idea that many have that the Ravens win in spite of Joe, not particularly because of him. I find myself agreeing with that more often than not.

With any luck this will be the last year with Cameron, and hopefully we will see what he can do with another OC....

With all due respect you miss the point!

The term "elite" is a fantasy football word from a fantasy football NFL! Forget using the term "Elite" until someone defines that term to us!

If you ask the Ravens players and coaches they will tell you it has been a whole new world since 2008...even when he was just being asked to "manage" games.

The guy cares only about winning! If the Ravens are running all over an opponent on the road, Flacco does not care if he only throws the ball 10 times. If he has to, he can and does outplay his opponent (see Minnesota, GB, New England, etc.).

The Ravens know that all this guy does is give the team a chance to win EVERY WEEK!

Look back over the last three years and please tell us how many games did the Ravens play in which it was clear they had no chance to win? Houston (2012) is the only one that comes to mind. Can you think of any more?

[RavingManiac]

With all due respect you miss the point!

The term "elite" is a fantasy football word from a fantasy football NFL! Forget using the term "Elite" until someone defines that term to us!

If you ask the Ravens players and coaches they will tell you it has been a whole new world since 2008...even when he was just being asked to "manage" games.

The guy cares only about winning! If the Ravens are running all over an opponent on the road, Flacco does not care if he only throws the ball 10 times. If he has to, he can and does outplay his opponent (see Minnesota, GB, New England, etc.).

The Ravens know that all this guy does is give the team a chance to win EVERY WEEK!

Look back over the last three years and please tell us how many games did the Ravens play in which it was clear they had no chance to win? Houston (2012) is the only one that comes to mind. Can you think of any more?

This is exactly why there is so much division about Flacco. You are right, he can and does out play his opponent sometimes. The key word is sometimes. I look at the KC game and every qb had thrown at least 2 touchdown passes against them up to that point. That is just one example and I can give many more examples. He outplays his opponent one week and many people say "Look, he is elite!" The next game he disappears and many people say "Look, he is not elite!" He is just too inconsistent. I'm thinking though, after the playoffs last year, that he may thrive in the playoffs this year at home.

[RavingManiac]

Why is Alex Smith not a fair comparison?

Alex Smith is a game manager, not a game changer. He does not have the "big arm" like Flacco.

Coaches like the guy who can put the ball in a bucket on the 15-yard out from the far hash. Smith does not make that throw. Flacco/Copernik(?) do.

when a coach has the choice between a game manager and a big arm, he takes the big arm most of the time.

Flacco wins games. that is all that matters.

I'm still not sure if you understand the point I was trying to make. More than one person has said that the only thing that matters is winning. That is the only thing that matters. Well, Alex Smith was winning. Even though the 49ers were "winning", they replaced the quarterback. My whole point is that winning is not the only stat that matters. If it did, Alex Smith would still be the QB. I understand why he lost his job from your post but that is not the point I was making.

[RavingManiac]

more proof playing too much madden and fantasy football has reduced the football IQ of many fans....

9-2...that's the bottom line...and at the end of the day the only stat that really matters...

How does my post prove my football IQ is low? I posted facts to support my argument that Flacco is an average QB with flashes of greatness. By saying this, it proves my football IQ is low? Can you tell me why? What facts do you have to support Flacco is elite or great? His win /loss record? Is that it? You can't judge how good a QB is just solely by their win/loss record. I would hope that you are smarter than that. At the end of the year, you just look at every team's record and that determines who the best QB is for that year?

[Peej7245]

...What facts do you have to support Flacco is elite or great? His win /loss record? Is that it? You can't judge how good a QB is just solely by their win/loss record. I would hope that you are smarter than that. At the end of the year, you just look at every team's record and that determines who the best QB is for that year?

Facts:

Win/Loss:

Ryan (10-1), Flacco (9-2), Manning (8-3), Brady (8-3), Brees (5-7)

Good vs Bad games:

Manning (2 games), Brady (2 games), Brees (1 game - 5 ints) and Ryan (2 game - 5 INTsand 2 INTs) all have multiple-INT games this year alone! Flacco had ONE game like that - at Houston!

Durability:

Flacco - 0, Zero, Zip, Nada missed games in his career. No matter how great the others play, none of them can be great standing on the sidelines in civvies!

Now for the Opinion:

My point is that the term "elite" is often the product of the media. All of the QBs above are great NFL QBs based on their winning records. This is a result of the ability to win games by 1) putting up numbers when they need to be put up; 2) winning the field position battle and 3) minimizing turnovers.

Is Flacco as good as Manning? Possibly not, but has a better record in 2012
Is Flacco as good as Brady? Possibly not, but has outplayed him twice now
Is Flacco as good as Brees? Judging by team record and his performance - Yes
Is Flacco as good as Ryan? Based on every possible measurement (except playoff wins) these two are the same - the best of the young QBs in the NFL

So, is Flacco "elite"? Let's just say, he's the most "elite" of any QB the Ravens have had!

[can you hear me now!]

How does my post prove my football IQ is low? I posted facts to support my argument that Flacco is an average QB with flashes of greatness. By saying this, it proves my football IQ is low? Can you tell me why? What facts do you have to support Flacco is elite or great? His win /loss record? Is that it? You can't judge how good a QB is just solely by their win/loss record. I would hope that you are smarter than that. At the end of the year, you just look at every team's record and that determines who the best QB is for that year?

maybe we should start with your definition of average...so please, in some detail, explain what an average QB is. Once you do that, then we will talk ..

and for the record I never said Flacco was elite...maybe that is part of your issue right there....

[RavingManiac]

maybe we should start with your definition of average...so please, in some detail, explain what an average QB is. Once you do that, then we will talk ..

and for the record I never said Flacco was elite...maybe that is part of your issue right there....

With all due respect, you said my football IQ is low as evidenced by my earlier post. I just want to know exactly what about my post proved my IQ was low.
As far as what I think an average qb is, it is someone who ranks in the middle of the pack in qb rating, maybe touchdowns passed but the qb rating involves that already, I could be wrong about that but that is my understanding.

[can you hear me now!]

With all due respect, you said my football IQ is low as evidenced by my earlier post. I just want to know exactly what about my post proved my IQ was low.
As far as what I think an average qb is, it is someone who ranks in the middle of the pack in qb rating, maybe touchdowns passed but the qb rating involves that already, I could be wrong about that but that is my understanding.

it is low...do you understand what "quantifiable" means? Let me help you here-- when I ask for specifics, "middle " isn't very specific and is subject to interpretation....provide quantifiable measurements for determining what an average qb is....I'll be back later to see if you've come up with something quantifiable...I won't hold my breath...

[West Chester Raven]

How does my post prove my football IQ is low? I posted facts to support my argument that Flacco is an average QB with flashes of greatness. By saying this, it proves my football IQ is low? Can you tell me why? What facts do you have to support Flacco is elite or great? His win /loss record? Is that it? You can't judge how good a QB is just solely by their win/loss record. I would hope that you are smarter than that. At the end of the year, you just look at every team's record and that determines who the best QB is for that year?

Don't waste your time with the Muppet Man. For him, all is fine unless you leave any derogatory comments about Joe out of the conversation. If you don't, then you are not as smart as he. Funny thing is, that when you leave the confines of this newspaper and the Baltimore metro area, most fans see the situation for what it truly is. Flacco is just OK - he plays on a very good team. He is OK but nothing special. All you gotta do is read my friend and watch the games.

[West Chester Raven]

it is low...do you understand what "quantifiable" means? Let me help you here-- when I ask for specifics, "middle " isn't very specific and is subject to interpretation....provide quantifiable measurements for determining what an average qb is....I'll be back later to see if you've come up with something quantifiable...I won't hold my breath...

I'm pretty sure that Raving Maniac is not too concerned with your requests. Look - let me make it simple for you. All you have - all you have - is a team's won-loss record to support your stance on our QB. Everything else says you're wrong. So - chew on that awhile. We won't check back.

[West Chester Raven]

Facts:

Win/Loss:

Ryan (10-1), Flacco (9-2), Manning (8-3), Brady (8-3), Brees (5-7)

Good vs Bad games:

Manning (2 games), Brady (2 games), Brees (1 game - 5 ints) and Ryan (2 game - 5 INTsand 2 INTs) all have multiple-INT games this year alone! Flacco had ONE game like that - at Houston!

Durability:

Flacco - 0, Zero, Zip, Nada missed games in his career. No matter how great the others play, none of them can be great standing on the sidelines in civvies!

Now for the Opinion:

My point is that the term "elite" is often the product of the media. All of the QBs above are great NFL QBs based on their winning records. This is a result of the ability to win games by 1) putting up numbers when they need to be put up; 2) winning the field position battle and 3) minimizing turnovers.

Is Flacco as good as Manning? Possibly not, but has a better record in 2012
Is Flacco as good as Brady? Possibly not, but has outplayed him twice now
Is Flacco as good as Brees? Judging by team record and his performance - Yes
Is Flacco as good as Ryan? Based on every possible measurement (except playoff wins) these two are the same - the best of the young QBs in the NFL

So, is Flacco "elite"? Let's just say, he's the most "elite" of any QB the Ravens have had!

Flacco is "possibly not" as good as Brady? That is just silly.
Has it occurred to you that when teams play, opposing QB's are playing the opposing teams defense? Our defense is quite better than NE on a regular basis. Tom's work is tougher than Joe's when we play. You haven't thought of that? For God's sake - they had the WORST PASS DEFENSE IN THE NFL last year. They were starting a WR at cornerback. You act like they both had the same challenge and Joe got the best of him.

[West Chester Raven]

This! This is exactly how I feel. I get so tired of hearing about Flacco being "elite", when it looks to most objective fans that he is simply not. Good... yes, "elite"... Haloti Ngata chance!

I am very thankful that the Ravens have him, and that he does not cost the team many games. I just can't get past the idea that many have that the Ravens win in spite of Joe, not particularly because of him. I find myself agreeing with that more often than not.

With any luck this will be the last year with Cameron, and hopefully we will see what he can do with another OC....

Joe is fine - he isn't great. The thing that occurs to me is that he doesn't seem to elevate the play of those around him. He does not appear to be in command of the team on the field after 5 years. The inconsistency probably leads to a perceptible lack of confidence with his teammates. This is no different than what we experience in the workplace. People gravitate to those who perform at a high level on a regular basis. Joe is a component. An important one - but not one that couldn't be replaced. Note that he is still waiting for his extension.
Let's not start Boller comparisons. Joe is far better than Boller - of course. That isn't the point.

[West Chester Raven]

Meaningless stats? have you fallen down recently and hit your head? I love it. How in the world do you compare nfl combine stats to real nfl career stats? Have you lost your mind? touchdown passes by a qb is a meaningless stat? Qb rating by a qb is a meaningless stat? Ints are a meaningless stat?

All they have is the team's W-L record. Same with Joe Linta.

[Peej7245]

Flacco is "possibly not" as good as Brady? That is just silly.
Has it occurred to you that when teams play, opposing QB's are playing the opposing teams defense? Our defense is quite better than NE on a regular basis. Tom's work is tougher than Joe's when we play. You haven't thought of that? For God's sake - they had the WORST PASS DEFENSE IN THE NFL last year. They were starting a WR at cornerback. You act like they both had the same challenge and Joe got the best of him.

...and your point is???

Last year, NE was lucky to win due to a stripped pass, a missed call and a blown FG attempt.

This year, NE had a defense that was ranked similarly to the Ravens and Brady was outplayed again.

[RavingManiac]

it is low...do you understand what "quantifiable" means? Let me help you here-- when I ask for specifics, "middle " isn't very specific and is subject to interpretation....provide quantifiable measurements for determining what an average qb is....I'll be back later to see if you've come up with something quantifiable...I won't hold my breath...

I have asked you twice now and you still can't provide me reasons why my earlier post proves why my footabll IQ is low. I looked it over numerous times and to be honest, I do not see anything in there that proves or even hints that my football IQ is low. All I did was provide facts that prove my argument that Joe is an average QB with flashes of greatness. Doing this proves my football IQ is low? I now realize along with everyone else on here that you CAN'T provide me reasons because there are none. You just say crap and hope you don't get called out on it. It sucks when you do get called out on it. It's pretty embarrasing so you come up with.."Answer this question and I'll tell you"...then there is the "Do you understand...." Pretty sad if you ask me

[West Chester Raven]

...and your point is???

Last year, NE was lucky to win due to a stripped pass, a missed call and a blown FG attempt.

This year, NE had a defense that was ranked similarly to the Ravens and Brady was outplayed again.

Dude, my point is that the "dueling QB's" metric is invalid. They are not on the field at the same time and each face an entirely different set of circumstances when they are on the field. Tom is playing our defense. Joe is playing their defense. It isn't a comparison at all.
That was a heart breaking loss. Joe played good enough to win the game. Tom didn't. But the relative task that each of the two players faced was entirely different. That is my point.

[RavingManiac]

Don't waste your time with the Muppet Man. For him, all is fine unless you leave any derogatory comments about Joe out of the conversation. If you don't, then you are not as smart as he. Funny thing is, that when you leave the confines of this newspaper and the Baltimore metro area, most fans see the situation for what it truly is. Flacco is just OK - he plays on a very good team. He is OK but nothing special. All you gotta do is read my friend and watch the games.

I was wondering what fans thought about Flacco that were out of the area. I do know that commentators on espn and nfl network all say that Flacco is just too inconsistent and he isn't able to put the team on his back and win games on a weekly and consistent basis. It is funny to see how sensitive these guys are here on these forums when it comes to Flacco.

[RavingManiac]

Flacco is "possibly not" as good as Brady? That is just silly.
Has it occurred to you that when teams play, opposing QB's are playing the opposing teams defense? Our defense is quite better than NE on a regular basis. Tom's work is tougher than Joe's when we play. You haven't thought of that? For God's sake - they had the WORST PASS DEFENSE IN THE NFL last year. They were starting a WR at cornerback. You act like they both had the same challenge and Joe got the best of him.

I caught that as well. I was going to reply but you summed it up pretty good. It's comical to read Flacco is possibly not as good as Brady. They don't want to concede anything negative whatsoever when it comes to Flacco.

[RavingManiac]

...and your point is???

Last year, NE was lucky to win due to a stripped pass, a missed call and a blown FG attempt.

This year, NE had a defense that was ranked similarly to the Ravens and Brady was outplayed again.

Peej, WCR has a good point. If I am not mistaken, The Pats had one of the worst pass defenses in NFL history. With that said, Flacco played very well. He was making passes in that game that I never seen him make throughout the game on a consistent basis. I thought he might have turned the corner because of that breakout game and it would carry over to this season. I was wrong.