This stat makes Joe Cool very valuable

[Peej7245]

Dude, my point is that the "dueling QB's" metric is invalid. They are not on the field at the same time and each face an entirely different set of circumstances when they are on the field. Tom is playing our defense. Joe is playing their defense. It isn't a comparison at all.
That was a heart breaking loss. Joe played good enough to win the game. Tom didn't. But the relative task that each of the two players faced was entirely different. That is my point.

Well, we are finally getting somewhere. Forget the dueling stats...

Look at the records and, specifically, look at games in which Flacco actually lost games! You will not find too many.

Bottom line is that I believe that Flacco has proven himself capable of winning nearly any game.

[RavingManiac]

I'm pretty sure that Raving Maniac is not too concerned with your requests. Look - let me make it simple for you. All you have - all you have - is a team's won-loss record to support your stance on our QB. Everything else says you're wrong. So - chew on that awhile. We won't check back.

What is it with this guy? He acts like he is doing me a favor by coming back later to check on my replies. I love it when I call these guys out on stuff and they can't respond. OCF is another example. He said he sees the differences in Cam's play calling between home and away games and that's why Flacco's numbers are so bad at away games. I ask him what the differences are and he tells me to stop stalking him, lol. He can't just tell me the differences so he comes up with some silly stalking response. This guy tells me my post proves my football IQ is bad. I ask him what about it is bad and he comes up with "You tell me what an average QB is...and I'll check back later to see what your response is". LOL! I guess they think they can post whatever they want and never get called out on it.

[Peej7245]

What is it with this guy? He acts like he is doing me a favor by coming back later to check on my replies. I love it when I call these guys out on stuff and they can't respond. OCF is another example. He said he sees the differences in Cam's play calling between home and away games and that's why Flacco's numbers are so bad at away games. I ask him what the differences are and he tells me to stop stalking him, lol. He can't just tell me the differences so he comes up with some silly stalking response. This guy tells me my post proves my football IQ is bad. I ask him what about it is bad and he comes up with "You tell me what an average QB is...and I'll check back later to see what your response is". LOL! I guess they think they can post whatever they want and never get called out on it.

RM, you make good points and argue them enthusiastically...why worry about what someone says about your IQ?

You are fun to debate...deal?

[can you hear me now!]

I'm pretty sure that Raving Maniac is not too concerned with your requests. Look - let me make it simple for you. All you have - all you have - is a team's won-loss record to support your stance on our QB. Everything else says you're wrong. So - chew on that awhile. We won't check back.

neither one of you can actually defend your comments with anything concrete, just more whining and getting frustrated because being asked to define your criteria for measuring performance is beyond your capabilities...this is what typically happens when all you have is emotion vs logic...you rely on words like "most", "average". "limit(ed)", "not much".....

if ratings are all that matter why keep score? why have standings? playoffs?

the 4th highest rated QB plays on a 5-6 team....that's a great correlation there...the 12th and 13th rated play on losing teams as well (Flacco is 14)....

Flacco is 11th in yds per game...the top 3 in yds per game play on losing teams.....whats the correlation there?

of all qbs with 300 or more passes, only 3 have less interceptions....that's got be a sign of an average qb, right? that kind of turnover rate is a killer, right?

if QB rating is so important, why is a qb with a 104 rating in danger of being replaced? using your standard, he's elite...5th highest rating in the league...

you guys will continue to flail.....

and maybe some day maniac will show where most fans think flacco is elite...another bs statement....almost up there with your guarantee Ben was playing this week....you are the poster child for EPIC FAIL....

by 730 tomorrow night you be whining about another win....maybe even toss out the word hollow again....

everything else? please elaborate on that....

[West Chester Raven]

neither one of you can actually defend your comments with anything concrete, ....this is what typically happens when all you have is emotion vs logic...you rely on words like "most", "average". "limit(ed)", "not much".....
Flacco is 11th in yds per game...the top 3 in yds per game play on losing teams.....whats the correlation there?
if QB rating is so important, why is a qb with a 104 rating in danger of being replaced? using your standard, he's elite...5th highest rating in the league...

Muppet Man: Ya know - I spent time a few days ago putting a nice statistical picture together for you guys.
Nothing concrete? You think you're the only guy with a brain on this board?
1. Joe completes 60 percent of his passes. That ranks him 21st out of 32 QB's. The company that far down the chart isn't flattering. You think it is all about quantity - it isn't. Those stats say Joe is inaccurate.
2. Football is a team sport. W-L record to evaluate a single player doesn't work. Ask Alex Smith or Trent Dilfer.
3. On the subject of Alex Smith: You know, he really was putting together a nice season by any measure. But - he has another talented QB nipping at his heels (something Joe has never dealt with) and a coach that can see Alex isn't really carrying the team despite what the stats say. The defense is. Alex will be looking for a job next year. Sidenote: Jim and John are bothers.
4. Ray Rice is the second leading receiver on the team with only 2 fewer catches than Boldin. He has 9 more catches than Torrey Smith. So, Joe likes to throw to Rice - A LOT. Despite checking down to Ray Rice as much as he does, the completion % is only 60% overall. This indicates inaccurate passing.
5. Our offensive line is ranked #17 overall. Not the best line, but certainly not the worst and not bad enough to be used as an excuse.
So - nobody is saying Joe is worthless - BUT - he is OK. He ain't the straw that stirs the drink. Make sense?

[Peej7245]

...
1. Joe completes 60 percent of his passes. That ranks him 21st out of 32 QB's. ... Those stats say Joe is inaccurate.

Last Sunday, Flacco completed 30 of 51 passes, just under 60%. However, 4 incompletions were flat out drops and one (down the left sideline to Torrey Smith) should have been a PI since the DB had the ole' arm bar out for the last 15 yards.

If those 4 drops are caught, his completion record is 66.7%. If the missed PI had been called, that would have raised the completion percentage to 60%.

Look at the plays that make up the statistic to get a true picture.

On a comparative note: Watch a replay of New England against Miami, Buffalo, etc. He throws for a ton of yards, but most come from 5-10 yard passes and 20-30 yards after the catch. In fact, against Buffalo, Brady threw two long TD passes where the ball was in the air for 15 yards and in the receiver's arms for 55 yards.

Last year it was said that it is easy to complete 70% of your passes when they only go for 5 yards each.

Again, look at the plays that make up the statistic to get a true picture.

4. Ray Rice is the second leading receiver on the team with only 2 fewer catches than Boldin. He has 9 more catches than Torrey Smith. So, Joe likes to throw to Rice - A LOT. Despite checking down to Ray Rice as much as he does, the completion % is only 60% overall. This indicates inaccurate passing.

As I posted previously, when you look at the replay, Joe only missed 4 passes on Sunday. There were 4 drops, 6 passes defensed (the receiver could have caught the ball but the defender made a play), 3 tipped passes, 1 fell incomplete because he was hit as he threw the ball and 3 throwaways.

This DOES NOT indicate inaccurate passing!

So - nobody is saying Joe is worthless - BUT - he is OK. He ain't the straw that stirs the drink. Make sense?

Ask Arizona, Pittsburgh, New England, Houston, Philadelphia, San Diego and a few others! They will tell you that Flacco IS the straw that stirs the drink.

Smith, Jones, Boldin, Pitta, Rice, Dixson are all scary weapons, but any weapon needs a shooter!

It seems to be Flacco!

[RavingManiac]

RM, you make good points and argue them enthusiastically...why worry about what someone says about your IQ?

You are fun to debate...deal?

Well the main reason I just want to make him look foolish, i guess. I know my post had nothing at all in there that even hinted about how smart I am. He made the statement so I called him out on it knowing full well he could not answer it. That's exactly why he avoids answering my question. Maybe its childish on my part but when people make silly statements like that and other statements such as "Harbaugh listens to nobody except for Ozzie because his ego is too big" then i'm going to call them out on it.

[RavingManiac]

neither one of you can actually defend your comments with anything concrete, just more whining and getting frustrated because being asked to define your criteria for measuring performance is beyond your capabilities...this is what typically happens when all you have is emotion vs logic...you rely on words like "most", "average". "limit(ed)", "not much".....

if ratings are all that matter why keep score? why have standings? playoffs?

the 4th highest rated QB plays on a 5-6 team....that's a great correlation there...the 12th and 13th rated play on losing teams as well (Flacco is 14)....

Flacco is 11th in yds per game...the top 3 in yds per game play on losing teams.....whats the correlation there?

of all qbs with 300 or more passes, only 3 have less interceptions....that's got be a sign of an average qb, right? that kind of turnover rate is a killer, right?

if QB rating is so important, why is a qb with a 104 rating in danger of being replaced? using your standard, he's elite...5th highest rating in the league...

you guys will continue to flail.....

and maybe some day maniac will show where most fans think flacco is elite...another bs statement....almost up there with your guarantee Ben was playing this week....you are the poster child for EPIC FAIL....

by 730 tomorrow night you be whining about another win....maybe even toss out the word hollow again....

everything else? please elaborate on that....

Are you for real? Seriously. We have nothing concrete? WCR and I support our argument by concrete facts. I feel like i'm in the twilight zone here. How in the world could you say we can't back up anything we say with anything concrete when that is all we have done? You guys are the ones that have nothing concrete which is why its so comical. Epic fail? LOL! Do you really think you can make one of the most ridiculous posts on this forum and then just put Epic fail and it makes you look good? It seems as though you are trying too hard.

[can you hear me now!]

and I showed where your reliance on statistics has holes...but not good enough for you...so cling to your stats as you tend to want to....you've conveniently ignored the Alex Smith rating and his 70% completion rate....if it's not all about winning, as you state, then why are you leaning on Smith's potential benching as some sort of proof your statistics never lie?

as for you EPIC FAIL, you want to ignore your fallacies as well....I'm still waiting for you to address Jaworski's comments about the 4th and 29...he saw it totally different (and totally correctly) as not being a concession to defeat.....

just remember there are lies, damned lies and statistics.....enjoy the numbers boys and marinating in your own misery as the ravens continue to win with Joe as QB....

[RavingManiac]

Last Sunday, Flacco completed 30 of 51 passes, just under 60%. However, 4 incompletions were flat out drops and one (down the left sideline to Torrey Smith) should have been a PI since the DB had the ole' arm bar out for the last 15 yards.

If those 4 drops are caught, his completion record is 66.7%. If the missed PI had been called, that would have raised the completion percentage to 60%.

Look at the plays that make up the statistic to get a true picture.

On a comparative note: Watch a replay of New England against Miami, Buffalo, etc. He throws for a ton of yards, but most come from 5-10 yard passes and 20-30 yards after the catch. In fact, against Buffalo, Brady threw two long TD passes where the ball was in the air for 15 yards and in the receiver's arms for 55 yards.

Last year it was said that it is easy to complete 70% of your passes when they only go for 5 yards each.

Again, look at the plays that make up the statistic to get a true picture.



As I posted previously, when you look at the replay, Joe only missed 4 passes on Sunday. There were 4 drops, 6 passes defensed (the receiver could have caught the ball but the defender made a play), 3 tipped passes, 1 fell incomplete because he was hit as he threw the ball and 3 throwaways.

This DOES NOT indicate inaccurate passing!



Ask Arizona, Pittsburgh, New England, Houston, Philadelphia, San Diego and a few others! They will tell you that Flacco IS the straw that stirs the drink.

Smith, Jones, Boldin, Pitta, Rice, Dixson are all scary weapons, but any weapon needs a shooter!

It seems to be Flacco!

Every team experiences dropped passes. The Ravens aren't the only team that experiences that. Pittsburgh dropped a couple of crucial passes at the end of the last game we played that killed the chances of a comeback. On a side note, I expect a win today. I also expect a thread that is a type of "In your face WCR and Ravingmaniac". We are ravens fans so there really is nothing you can throw in our face. If Flacco has a great game, then we could not be happier for him and the team. We do not complain about Flacco. We simply debate whether he is an elite QB or even a great QB.

[Peej7245]

Well the main reason I just want to make him look foolish, i guess. I know my post had nothing at all in there that even hinted about how smart I am. He made the statement so I called him out on it knowing full well he could not answer it. That's exactly why he avoids answering my question. Maybe its childish on my part but when people make silly statements like that and other statements such as "Harbaugh listens to nobody except for Ozzie because his ego is too big" then i'm going to call them out on it.

You can't make him look foolish, he does that himself!

[Peej7245]

Every team experiences dropped passes. The Ravens aren't the only team that experiences that. Pittsburgh dropped a couple of crucial passes at the end of the last game we played that killed the chances of a comeback. On a side note, I expect a win today. I also expect a thread that is a type of "In your face WCR and Ravingmaniac". We are ravens fans so there really is nothing you can throw in our face. If Flacco has a great game, then we could not be happier for him and the team. We do not complain about Flacco. We simply debate whether he is an elite QB or even a great QB.

I would agree with you except for the following:

When Flacco has a "great" game statistically (win or lose), it is, at best, accepted but without any discussion about his "eliteness" or "non-eliteness" or, at worst, dismissed as a team victory, won in spite of Flacco, other team's bad defense, etc.

When Flacco has a subpar game statistically (win or lose), out come the whiners complaining that Flacco is average, below average, or so horrible that he should give all his salary back to the team, etc.!

Manning, Brady, Rogers are not elite because they have x good games vs y not good games. They are hyped as elite by the media because of the body of work over their careers!

[West Chester Raven]

Last Sunday, Flacco completed 30 of 51 passes, just under 60%. However, 4 incompletions were flat out drops and one (down the left sideline to Torrey Smith) should have been a PI since the DB had the ole' arm bar out for the last 15 yards.

If those 4 drops are caught, his completion record is 66.7%. If the missed PI had been called, that would have raised the completion percentage to 60%.

Look at the plays that make up the statistic to get a true picture.

On a comparative note: Watch a replay of New England against Miami, Buffalo, etc. He throws for a ton of yards, but most come from 5-10 yard passes and 20-30 yards after the catch. In fact, against Buffalo, Brady threw two long TD passes where the ball was in the air for 15 yards and in the receiver's arms for 55 yards.

Last year it was said that it is easy to complete 70% of your passes when they only go for 5 yards each.

Again, look at the plays that make up the statistic to get a true picture.



As I posted previously, when you look at the replay, Joe only missed 4 passes on Sunday. There were 4 drops, 6 passes defensed (the receiver could have caught the ball but the defender made a play), 3 tipped passes, 1 fell incomplete because he was hit as he threw the ball and 3 throwaways.

This DOES NOT indicate inaccurate passing!



Ask Arizona, Pittsburgh, New England, Houston, Philadelphia, San Diego and a few others! They will tell you that Flacco IS the straw that stirs the drink.

Smith, Jones, Boldin, Pitta, Rice, Dixson are all scary weapons, but any weapon needs a shooter!

It seems to be Flacco!

Good reply. the truth? maybe somewhere in between.
Now - dropped passes. C'mon man. Every QB has dropped passes to deal with. You saying our WR's aren't good enough? Jezuz H Christ - they are dam fine receivers. Joe should make them even better. Let's toss dropped passes out. We're talking about a full season body of work to make up a 60% completion rate.

[West Chester Raven]

Go Ravens! Let's see Pittsburgh get a BEAT DOWN! I look forward to these 2 games every year. Let's enjoy the experience!

[Peej7245]

Good reply. the truth? maybe somewhere in between.
Now - dropped passes. C'mon man. Every QB has dropped passes to deal with. You saying our WR's aren't good enough? Jezuz H Christ - they are dam fine receivers. Joe should make them even better. Let's toss dropped passes out. We're talking about a full season body of work to make up a 60% completion rate.

Thank you...

Now about dropped passes: I included them in the statistics (they did happen by the way and will continue to happen as long as human beings play football!) solely to refute a claim that Flacco with a 60% completion rate is inaccurate! They were included for no other reason.