Here we go again... illegitimate domestic regime and WMDs

[dsummoner]

Source:

The Syrian military is prepared to use chemical weapons against its own people and is awaiting final orders from President Bashar Assad, U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday... As recently as Tuesday, officials had said there was as yet no evidence that the process of mixing the "precursor" chemicals had begun. But Wednesday, they said their worst fears had been confirmed: The nerve agents were locked and loaded inside the bombs.

Oh noes!!! The WMDs (yet again).

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton reiterated U.S. warnings to Assad not to use chemical weapons, saying he would be crossing "a red line" if he did so.

And who are you, a member of a rogue, illegitimate and criminal regime, to be talking about your racist and religiously bigoted 'red lines' for the legitimate leader of another country?

[Wizard777]

I think the reason Congress has been timid in interceding in this humanitarian crisis is becayse they are afraid that if the rebels gain control of Syria. They will want control of all of Syria including the Golan Heights. So because of our Golden Child, Israel, that keeps kicking us in teeth. Congress is more confortable with a genocidal dictator that doesn't care who's occupying the Golan Heights. Just like they were more confortable with a brutal dictator in Egypt that didn't care about the Sinai Peninsula.

[Byng]

Source:



Oh noes!!! The WMDs (yet again).



And who are you, a member of a rogue, illegitimate and criminal regime, to be talking about your racist and religiously bigoted 'red lines' for the legitimate leader of another country?

I doubt very much, unless Assad and his family have decided/chosen to die (which I also doubt very much), that if this loading of Chemical weapons on to weapon ready delivery vehicles is actually happening, that the orders are not being given by Assad or what is left of his government.

The minute the firing of chemical weapons is confirmed (and God help us and the Syrian people if it happens) Assad and his Government, or what is left of it will be taken out (killed) by the United States and the neighboring countries, which is why I doubt very much that Assad is still giving the orders.

Assad is probably working out a deal, my guess would be with the Russians, to go into exile in Russia. The problem is that there will be no such deal for his Generals that are actually directing and fighting this war, so if they sense that Assad and his family are getting ready to cut a deal and bolt the country then they will be getting more desperate by the hour and it would be my guess that it is the Generals and not Assad that may well be preparing to go out in a blaze of glory by the use of these weapons.

I would respectfully suggest that rather than criticising/blaming our own Government, past and present, for what is happening in Syria we should all becoming together as Americans in support of our Government and military who right now have a fast deteriorating situation on their hands with possible doomsday repercussions for the population of Syria which could easily spread to neighboring countries. They need our support and prayers right now not our criticism.

[Gopher]

I can’t say that I’m all that concerned about this. It seems that the most efficient way to rid ourselves of those weapons would be to encourage the troglodytes to use them up on each other. If they decide to expand their stupidity and attempt to use them against real humans then we may want to consider intervening in some way. Otherwise, we should probably just butt out.

[Wizard777]

I doubt very much, unless Assad and his family have decided/chosen to die (which I also doubt very much), that if this loading of Chemical weapons on to weapon ready delivery vehicles is actually happening, that the orders are not being given by Assad or what is left of his government.

The minute the firing of chemical weapons is confirmed (and God help us and the Syrian people if it happens) Assad and his Government, or what is left of it will be taken out (killed) by the United States and the neighboring countries, which is why I doubt very much that Assad is still giving the orders.

Assad is probably working out a deal, my guess would be with the Russians, to go into exile in Russia. The problem is that there will be no such deal for his Generals that are actually directing and fighting this war, so if they sense that Assad and his family are getting ready to cut a deal and bolt the country then they will be getting more desperate by the hour and it would be my guess that it is the Generals and not Assad that may well be preparing to go out in a blaze of glory by the use of these weapons.

I would respectfully suggest that rather than criticising/blaming our own Government, past and present, for what is happening in Syria we should all becoming together as Americans in support of our Government and military who right now have a fast deteriorating situation on their hands with possible doomsday repercussions for the population of Syria which could easily spread to neighboring countries. They need our support and prayers right now not our criticism.

Assad has in the past publicly rejected the notion of exile vowing to live and die in Syria. But privately the story could be much different. Current speculation on an Assad exile is Latin America. It's known that Syria’s Deputy Foreign Minister has been to Cuba, Venezuela and Ecuador with personal letters from Assad to the leaders of these countries. So using his chemical weapons and then trying to hide out in our backyard would be suicide. I don't think Russia would have him either way. Once he cedes power he's served his purpose and would be strictly a liability to Russia.

[Byng]

I can’t say that I’m all that concerned about this. It seems that the most efficient way to rid ourselves of those weapons would be to encourage the troglodytes to use them up on each other. If they decide to expand their stupidity and attempt to use them against real humans then we may want to consider intervening in some way. Otherwise, we should probably just butt out.

Would you say the same thing if they lobbed one into Israel as a parting gift and for good measure? The Israelis blowing it up in the skies above Israel with their missile defence system wont help it will just spread the chemical further. Israel is only 9 miles wide at one point, just one weapon fired could kill 10's of thousands so we can't just sit back and let the little brown men in long skirts, beards and towels on their heads use them to kill each-other. Maybe you should think before hitting the keyboard with tripe!

[Byng]

Assad has in the past publicly rejected the notion of exile vowing to live and die in Syria. But privately the story could be much different. Current speculation on an Assad exile is Latin America. It's known that Syria’s Deputy Foreign Minister has been to Cuba, Venezuela and Ecuador with personal letters from Assad to the leaders of these countries. So using his chemical weapons and then trying to hide out in our backyard would be suicide. I don't think Russia would have him either way. Once he cedes power he's served his purpose and would be strictly a liability to Russia.

I'm more concerned that it is Assad's Generals that are controlling the end-game and not Assad, because there will be no exile for them!

[dsummoner]

I doubt very much, unless Assad and his family have decided/chosen to die (which I also doubt very much), that if this loading of Chemical weapons on to weapon ready delivery vehicles is actually happening, that the orders are not being given by Assad or what is left of his government.

This development, if it is accurate, and not just the typical bumbling of the USIC, was readily predictable. It is clear, at this point in time, that the Administration has been covertly aiding the insurrectionists. You may recall that at the outset of hostilities in Syria, someone on this very board, advised against it.

The minute the firing of chemical weapons is confirmed (and God help us and the Syrian people if it happens) Assad and his Government, or what is left of it will be taken out (killed) by the United States and the neighboring countries, which is why I doubt very much that Assad is still giving the orders.

That, the emphasized, would be a big mistake and further compound the calamitous folly that the US has and is currently engaged in with regards to Syria.

Assad is probably working out a deal, my guess would be with the Russians, to go into exile in Russia. The problem is that there will be no such deal for his Generals that are actually directing and fighting this war, so if they sense that Assad and his family are getting ready to cut a deal and bolt the country then they will be getting more desperate by the hour and it would be my guess that it is the Generals and not Assad that may well be preparing to go out in a blaze of glory by the use of these weapons.

Venezuela and Cuba. The Alawites know (or should know) that there will be no quarter given to them by the Sunnis and that the usual 'human rights' handwringers will stand by either wringing their hands or simply ignore the outcome. They will already have little left to lose if things come down to the deployment of chemical weapons.

I would respectfully suggest that rather than criticising/blaming our own Government, past and present, for what is happening in Syria we should all becoming together as Americans in support of our Government and military who right now have a fast deteriorating situation on their hands with possible doomsday repercussions for the population of Syria which could easily spread to neighboring countries. They need our support and prayers right now not our criticism.

I am going to have to surprisingly but humbly disagree, my friend.

The last 'coming together as Americans' left the Americans saddled with the so-called Patriot Act. The criticism/blame is rightfully being assigned, on my part, to the deserving source. It would have been far better, for US regional foreign policy interests, if the US had not said anything or intervened in the Syrian situation. This would have been the case if al Assad had repeated the events at Hama on a national scale. Now, however, the shortsightedness of schizophrenic US foreign policy coupled with a volitionally obdurate refusal to learn from the mistakes of the past has created a situation with a far worse potential outcome for the US. That the current administration has engaged in the same folly with respect to its own interests is predictable. The surprise, however, is the quickening with which the ramifications are becoming manifest. Whomever it was within the USIC that may have suggested that the situation could be 'managed' should be fired for his/her incompetence.

[Joy in Mudville]

I would be very surprised if the United States isn't working behind the scenes with Russia to convince Assad to allow us or the Russians to simply airlift these weapons or their precursors out of Syria. This is something we did very successfully with Project Sapphire back in the 90s.

It is in no one's interest for these weapons to fall into the wrong hands.

[AttackPlanR]

....I would respectfully suggest that rather than criticising/blaming our own Government, past and present, for what is happening in Syria we should all becoming together as Americans in support of our Government and military who right now have a fast deteriorating situation on their hands with possible doomsday repercussions for the population of Syria which could easily spread to neighboring countries. They need our support and prayers right now not our criticism.

Without a doubt I respect greatly the opinions you bring to this board. However, I have to differ with you here. There is, of course, a deteriorating situation going on in Syria right now. However, for the life of me how it is "on the hands" of our government and military I can not figure out. The onus is not on us to intervene just because we can. If we do it will just be another instance of us going to war for reasons other than the fact that we have to go to war. We haven't had to fight since 1945, and I think I speak for many Americans (who don't get rich off of such endeavors) when I say that I'm sick of it.

[Byng]

This development, if it is accurate, and not just the typical bumbling of the USIC, was readily predictable. It is clear, at this point in time, that the Administration has been covertly aiding the insurrectionists. You may recall that at the outset of hostilities in Syria, someone on this very board, advised against it.



That, the emphasized, would be a big mistake and further compound the calamitous folly that the US has and is currently engaged in with regards to Syria.



Venezuela and Cuba. The Alawites know (or should know) that there will be no quarter given to them by the Sunnis and that the usual 'human rights' handwringers will stand by either wringing their hands or simply ignore the outcome. They will already have little left to lose if things come down to the deployment of chemical weapons.



I am going to have to surprisingly but humbly disagree, my friend.

The last 'coming together as Americans' left the Americans saddled with the so-called Patriot Act. The criticism/blame is rightfully being assigned, on my part, to the deserving source. It would have been far better, for US regional foreign policy interests, if the US had not said anything or intervened in the Syrian situation. This would have been the case if al Assad had repeated the events at Hama on a national scale. Now, however, the shortsightedness of schizophrenic US foreign policy coupled with a volitionally obdurate refusal to learn from the mistakes of the past has created a situation with a far worse potential outcome for the US. That the current administration has engaged in the same folly with respect to its own interests is predictable. The surprise, however, is the quickening with which the ramifications are becoming manifest. Whomever it was within the USIC that may have suggested that the situation could be 'managed' should be fired for his/her incompetence.

And of course it will not surprise you that I would "humbly disagree" with you my friend.

If Assad and/ or his Generals (my guess as I have said, is his Generals) have taken the step of arming these vehicles with chemical weapons, I would not want to be the one to say they were bluffing, because they have nothing to gain by doing so.

So I opine that they are not bluffing and somebody is thinking about going out in a blaze of glory, because once fired/released, there is no going back. And it does not matter a rats arse how we got to this point and who you want to blame for how we got here because we are here and you only get to address the current situation and what might happen tomorrow and not what happened last week or last year or last decade or last century!

One shell filled with chemical landing in one Syrian city will kill about 25,000 almost immediately or within 48 hours and that is not accounting for any wind! And if the decision is made to use them it wont be just one shell! In a worst case scenario it could result in a doomsday situation for Syria and even if they are only fired within Syria a very serious situation for surrounding countries as well depending on the prevailing winds and depending on whether the warheads are airbursts or impact bursts.

The United States and the surrounding countries have very difficult and limited choices but they have to do something, and the best of some very bad choices is to try and stop them being used in the first place and that will require a United States/NATO led intervention to have any chance of it being successful.

[Byng]

I would be very surprised if the United States isn't working behind the scenes with Russia to convince Assad to allow us or the Russians to simply airlift these weapons or their precursors out of Syria. This is something we did very successfully with Project Sapphire back in the 90s.

It is in no one's interest for these weapons to fall into the wrong hands.

My concern Joy is that we might be beyond that point if the reports that the weapons have already been armed are true. If they have indeed been armed then there are no 'right' hands for them to be in, because they are already in the wrong hands, which are the people that armed them.

[Byng]

Without a doubt I respect greatly the opinions you bring to this board. However, I have to differ with you here. There is, of course, a deteriorating situation going on in Syria right now. However, for the life of me how it is "on the hands" of our government and military I can not figure out. The onus is not on us to intervene just because we can. If we do it will just be another instance of us going to war for reasons other than the fact that we have to go to war. We haven't had to fight since 1945, and I think I speak for many Americans (who don't get rich off of such endeavors) when I say that I'm sick of it.

When it comes to a possible doomsday situation my friend we don't have an option. We have a NATO country in Turkey, bordering to the North and a close ally in Israel bordering to the South. As I said we don't have the luxury of a choice in the matter.

[dsummoner]

And of course it will not surprise you that I would "humbly disagree" with you my friend.

I am shocked and surprised to the point of even my surprise being shocked.

If Assad and/ or his Generals (my guess as I have said, is his Generals) have taken the step of arming these vehicles with chemical weapons, I would not want to be the one to say they were bluffing, because they have nothing to gain by doing so.

Given the performance of the USIC (especially on the WMD issue) one would not be surprised to see an incense burner being passed off as a chemical weapon. That being said, there is nothing to lose by not using chemical weapons should the conventional conflict be going as poorly as is being reported. If they don't then they get slaughtered by the Sunnis. If they do then the shortsighted US government either (a) is given pause under the threat of realized capability and willingness or (b) comes bumbling in (in the open) with its idiotic red lining and the conflict is greatly expanded. They may come out on the short end of the latter but not before taking a good number of their aggressors with them.[/QUOTE]

So I opine that they are not bluffing and somebody is thinking about going out in a blaze of glory, because once fired/released, there is no going back. And it does not matter a rats arse how we got to this point and who you want to blame for how we got here because we are here and you only get to address the current situation and what might happen tomorrow and not what happened last week or last year or last decade or last century!

The strategic view, my friend, always matters. It was the loss of the strategic view that has led the US to the situation that it is in now. It was the loss of the strategic view that put the MB in power in Egypt. It was the loss of the strategic view that opened Libya as a new field of jihad. It was the loss of the strategic view that resulted in the Bushblundering in Iraq. It was the loss of the strategic view that has the US in Afghanistan, now, and an unstable Pakistan, now.

One shell filled with chemical landing in one Syrian city will kill about 25,000 almost immediately or within 48 hours and that is not accounting for any wind! And if the decision is made to use them it wont be just one shell! In a worst case scenario it could result in a doomsday situation for Syria and even if they are only fired within Syria a very serious situation for surrounding countries as well depending on the prevailing winds and depending on whether the warheads are airbursts or impact bursts.

Let us say that this happens and 25K Syrians are killed almost immediately and there is some fallout for the surrounding countries. My question for you to consider, after any potential emotional response that it might engender and the coldness of logic can be considered, is so what?

25K, 250K, etc. dead Syrians means exactly what in regards to actual US foreign policy interests?

The predictable potential outcome regarding chemical weapons fall out for Syria's neighbors should have been considered before the US decided on its folly of meddling. Had the insurrection been snuffed out with 25K, 250K or 2.5M Syrians killed the outcome would have been far better for actual US foreign policy interests than the current situation.

The United States and the surrounding countries have very difficult and limited choices but they have to do something, and the best of some very bad choices is to try and stop them being used in the first place and that will require a United States/NATO led intervention to have any chance of it being successful.

The US is in a bed of its own making (idiotic red lines only compound the stupidity that is coming from the current administration, a replay of the past). Such is the nature of the schizophrenic foreign policy of the US. A US/NATO led intervention will most likely ensure that the conflict moves from beyond the conventional stage.

[AttackPlanR]

Well, until those countries become involved we actually do have a choice.

[Joy in Mudville]

It was the loss of the strategic view that has led the US to the situation that it is in now. It was the loss of the strategic view that put the MB in power in Egypt.

Complete and utter bunk

[Byng]

Well, until those countries become involved we actually do have a choice.

In the case of Turkey, it has already been attacked and had an aircraft shot down!

UN Article 5:

"For the purpose of Article 5 an armed attack on one or more of the parties is deemed to include an armed attack on the territory of any of the parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian departments of France, on the Occupation forces of any party in Europe, on the islands under the jurisdiction of any party in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer or on the vessels or aircraft in this area of any of the parties."

[Byng]

It was evoked by all NATO countries when America was attacked on 9/11, even Turkey!

[Wizard777]

I'm more concerned that it is Assad's Generals that are controlling the end-game and not Assad, because there will be no exile for them!

Assad is basically a Moma's boy that wasn't really fit to be President. There is no way the Generals will let him play Army. It's all them. They're most likely asking him vague question like, would you like us to crush the rebels? He says, yes. Then the Generals decide how to do that and their methods are then said to be direct orders from Assad.

[dsummoner]

Complete and utter bunk

An excellent description of the Obushma foreign policy blundering and failure.