Michigan To Become a Right to Work state!

[CajunRaven]

I see no reason to celebrate when wages are about to fall further on people.

There really isn't a reason to celebrate declining wages. The problem is global competition. The other is unions taking a portion of dues and using the money to support political activity workers do not necessarily agree with.

Union money should have no more influence on politics than corporate money. At the end of the day, they're both buying off politicans.

[OldBay]

There really isn't a reason to celebrate declining wages. The problem is global competition. The other is unions taking a portion of dues and using the money to support political activity workers do not necessarily agree with.

Union money should have no more influence on politics than corporate money. At the end of the day, they're both buying off politicans.

Unions cannot legally use any portion of dues or fees for political activity. Political activity can only be funded with voluntary donations to the union PAC.

Otherwise, I agree with you.

[OldBay]

The Union message board was a requirement by both the union and the company. But it was the company who mainly ensured the union steward kept it up to date. Maybe it was just a form of harassment. And it was the company who determined the seniority list based on company position and then company entry date. I became a union steward when the company I worked for voted for a union. I took a supervisory position with another company that had the same union. So I saw the company/union interaction from both sides. I also had a chance to see how other unions interacted with their respective company while on temporary assignment to other locations. Generally I found the same procedures used with these other unions and companies.

This sounds like the industrial or manufacturing unions of the 60's and 70's. My experience is with public sector unions and it is far different than what you describe. Public workers often work in conditions that their own agencies would prohibit in the private sector - talk about irony. As long as these conditions exist, there will be a need for those workers to get some representation. I know of state office buildings in which workers must report early on mondays to clean the rat droppings on their own time. Also, how much discipline is appropriate for an employee who leaves a work station to assist some member of the public and then returns to find that a rat has urinated on the state computer she uses? These are the kinds of prosaic problems stewards at state offices attend. Until state prison guards have as many rights as the prisoners, they will need someone on their side. If not a union, then who?

[flyboy56]

Both of the companies I worked for were government contractors. Refurbishing 1970-1980 Army UH-1 Huey's and AH-1 Cobra helicopters from 2004 to 2011. I also did some work at Ft. Lewis,WA installing armor on large Army Hemmitt trucks going to Iraq. The minute we entered their work place we were required to follow their union rules. And the rules were very regimented. The union I belonged to was the International Aerospace Machinist (IAM) union. A very large and powerful union.

[RIKMAN]

Unions cannot legally use any portion of dues or fees for political activity. Political activity can only be funded with voluntary donations to the union PAC.

Otherwise, I agree with you.

Maybe in the government, they can't. Otherwise- I think it's pretty common.
Unions actively support Dems.

[flyboy56]

Maybe in the government, they can't. Otherwise- I think it's pretty common.
Unions actively support Dems.

Seems to be common knowledge among most. Others live in a more idealistic world. I was their once when I was much younger. I can tell you the long fall hurt like hell.

[OldBay]

Maybe in the government, they can't. Otherwise- I think it's pretty common.
Unions actively support Dems.

No, it doesn't matter. The distinction is simply that dues and fees cannot be used for political action. Only voluntary donations can be used to support a candidate or party slate, etc.

[OldBay]

Seems to be common knowledge among most. Others live in a more idealistic world. I was their once when I was much younger. I can tell you the long fall hurt like hell.

Its not common knowledge at all. Its a common misconception.

[flyboy56]

Its not common knowledge at all. Its a common misconception.

And perception usually trumps reality. But I think in this case their are lot's of dirty back alley deals going on between Democrats and the unions. Palm greasing to win new contracts. People go to jail all of the time for that. Or do you deny that as well?

[OldBay]

Both of the companies I worked for were government contractors. Refurbishing 1970-1980 Army UH-1 Huey's and AH-1 Cobra helicopters from 2004 to 2011. I also did some work at Ft. Lewis,WA installing armor on large Army Hemmitt trucks going to Iraq. The minute we entered their work place we were required to follow their union rules. And the rules were very regimented. The union I belonged to was the International Aerospace Machinist (IAM) union. A very large and powerful union.

I hope the rules worked out to your benefit. Public sector unions in MD have no union work rules.

I could show you a state office where the desks are covered in asbestos flakes every morning because the rats run across the overhead asbestos-insulated pipes at night. After 6 consecutive years of pay cuts, furloughs, loss of benefits, and seeing their co-workers escorted out by armed guards (standard layoff procedure), the workers are afraid to complain. I don't blame them. Who is on their side?

[flyboy56]

I hope the rules worked out to your benefit. Public sector unions in MD have no union work rules.

I could show you a state office where the desks are covered in asbestos flakes every morning because the rats run across the overhead asbestos-insulated pipes at night. After 6 consecutive years of pay cuts, furloughs, loss of benefits, and seeing their co-workers escorted out by armed guards (standard layoff procedure), the workers are afraid to complain. I don't blame them. Who is on their side?

I never said unions weren't sometimes necessary and in the case you described it sounds like they could use one. I just firmly believe employees should always have a say in whether they want to join or not. I never understood the purpose of having unions in the public sector because they cannot strike. And they can't strike then what other recourse do they have to put pressure on the government?

[OldBay]

I never said unions weren't sometimes necessary and in the case you described it sounds like they could use one. I just firmly believe employees should always have a say in whether they want to join or not. I never understood the purpose of having unions in the public sector because they cannot strike. And they can't strike then what other recourse do they have to put pressure on the government?

Actually, they are not usually forced to join the union per se, but are forced to pay union fees. Unions in these cases (which includes the state of MD) have 2 lists - one for union members and the other for (forced) fees payers.

I don't mind the non-strike provision as much as the lack of binding arbitration. While unions make huge concessions that impact the employees pocketbooks in the form of pay cuts and increased cost of benefits, the other side has failed every year to honor its promises to hold the line on pension cuts, stop raiding the pension fund (or even to apply the employee contributions to the actual pension fund!) and layoffs.

So while the public sector unions are ineffective to maintaining paychecks, here is one example of how they can work:

Years ago, I worked in a state facility with formaldehyde levels tens of thousands times higher than any Katrina cottage. The public could not enter this building. We worked with formaldehyde with no protective anything - unless we bought it ourselves. OSHA had no jurisdiction because it was a state building. The state refused to provide respirators or allow workers to install ventilation fans. I was personally told by management that there were no state laws that specifically protected state workers from high formaldehyde levels, so state funds could not be used to provide ventilation. So, I bought box fans at my own expense and we did the best we could with them. That was before we had unions. Today, that issue would be addressed by a formal labor-management committee (LMC) made up by employees and management. I have found management to be very responsive to such concerns when they are brought before them in an LMC meeting.

[Calamari]

Its not common knowledge at all. Its a common misconception.

Thank you for sticking around to rebut this nonsense about unions.

[OldBay]

Thank you for sticking around to rebut this nonsense about unions.

I never say that unions are perfect. But for many with no voice, they are better than nothing.

[soulflower]

I never say that unions are perfect. But for many with no voice, they are better than nothing.

I second that. Somebody has to stand up for the little guys.

[grggngll]

Actually, they are not usually forced to join the union per se, but are forced to pay union fees. Unions in these cases (which includes the state of MD) have 2 lists - one for union members and the other for (forced) fees payers.

I don't mind the non-strike provision as much as the lack of binding arbitration. While unions make huge concessions that impact the employees pocketbooks in the form of pay cuts and increased cost of benefits, the other side has failed every year to honor its promises to hold the line on pension cuts, stop raiding the pension fund (or even to apply the employee contributions to the actual pension fund!) and layoffs.

So while the public sector unions are ineffective to maintaining paychecks, here is one example of how they can work:

Years ago, I worked in a state facility with formaldehyde levels tens of thousands times higher than any Katrina cottage. The public could not enter this building. We worked with formaldehyde with no protective anything - unless we bought it ourselves. OSHA had no jurisdiction because it was a state building. The state refused to provide respirators or allow workers to install ventilation fans. I was personally told by management that there were no state laws that specifically protected state workers from high formaldehyde levels, so state funds could not be used to provide ventilation. So, I bought box fans at my own expense and we did the best we could with them. That was before we had unions. Today, that issue would be addressed by a formal labor-management committee (LMC) made up by employees and management. I have found management to be very responsive to such concerns when they are brought before them in an LMC meeting.

So you are telling me that you and your co-workers were just a bunch of clueless victims, with absolutely no power or a desire to stand up and make your voice heard?

[dsummoner]

Unions are collusive monopolies that should be subject to the same legal opprobrium as other monopolies.

[flyboy56]

Actually, they are not usually forced to join the union per se, but are forced to pay union fees. Unions in these cases (which includes the state of MD) have 2 lists - one for union members and the other for (forced) fees payers.

I don't mind the non-strike provision as much as the lack of binding arbitration. While unions make huge concessions that impact the employees pocketbooks in the form of pay cuts and increased cost of benefits, the other side has failed every year to honor its promises to hold the line on pension cuts, stop raiding the pension fund (or even to apply the employee contributions to the actual pension fund!) and layoffs.

So while the public sector unions are ineffective to maintaining paychecks, here is one example of how they can work:

Years ago, I worked in a state facility with formaldehyde levels tens of thousands times higher than any Katrina cottage. The public could not enter this building. We worked with formaldehyde with no protective anything - unless we bought it ourselves. OSHA had no jurisdiction because it was a state building. The state refused to provide respirators or allow workers to install ventilation fans. I was personally told by management that there were no state laws that specifically protected state workers from high formaldehyde levels, so state funds could not be used to provide ventilation. So, I bought box fans at my own expense and we did the best we could with them. That was before we had unions. Today, that issue would be addressed by a formal labor-management committee (LMC) made up by employees and management. I have found management to be very responsive to such concerns when they are brought before them in an LMC meeting.

Did anyone contact OSHA? Every year we had someone from the OSHA office pay a visit and inspect the site. The guy was a GS15 and extremely knowledgeable. And a really personable person as well. If you told him something off the record he could be trusted. My last job put me between my own company's needs and our customers the Coast Guard. We were told to keep the customers "happy." On top of maintaining helicopters, I was also the Fuel King. A Coast Guard term for the guy who takes care of the Aviation fuel farm which had 4/50,000 gallon underground tanks that were installed back in 1942. As in old rusty, leaky equipment. The EPA finally shut it down. I do know what you are saying. It was a constant aggravating struggle trying to be safe and keep things running.

[OldBay]

Did anyone contact OSHA? Every year we had someone from the OSHA office pay a visit and inspect the site. The guy was a GS15 and extremely knowledgeable. And a really personable person as well. If you told him something off the record he could be trusted. My last job put me between my own company's needs and our customers the Coast Guard. We were told to keep the customers "happy." On top of maintaining helicopters, I was also the Fuel King. A Coast Guard term for the guy who takes care of the Aviation fuel farm which had 4/50,000 gallon underground tanks that were installed back in 1942. As in old rusty, leaky equipment. The EPA finally shut it down. I do know what you are saying. It was a constant aggravating struggle trying to be safe and keep things running.

Yes - I contacted OSHA. There was nothing they could do because it was state property.

The irony is that the state gov't issues citations to private businesses - but refuses to correct worse problems on state property.

[OldBay]

So you are telling me that you and your co-workers were just a bunch of clueless victims, with absolutely no power or a desire to stand up and make your voice heard?

Not clueless and certainly made our voices heard. When we were told the state would do nothing, we improvised our own solution at our (mostly my) expense. We deal with these things today through the LMC process - which is required by union contract and actually works.