So...I guess Matt Schaub

[OriginalColtsFan]

isn't a real "elite" QB either, huh? He's had 5 games this year with a QB rating under 80. Poor Texans. They're 11-2, but have just an "average Joe" kinda QB. I guess they'll never win a super bowl with THAT bum. Maybe they can talk to SF and bring in Alex Smith to save the day. Whatcha all think?

[bmore_ken]

Who here said Schaub was "elite"?

[AFKAR7]

Who here said Schaub was "elite"?

I have heard some "experts" say he would be if the Texans won it all at some point. IDK, I think the word "elite" is getting worn out these days.

[Frank Costanza 831]

I have heard some "experts" say he would be if the Texans won it all at some point. IDK, I think the word "elite" is getting worn out these days.

I'm getting sick and tired of hearing that word. Pretty much anything short of Tom Brady or Peyton Manning people are going to want to say "run that bum out of town"

[ivanbalt]

I have heard some "experts" say he would be if the Texans won it all at some point. IDK, I think the word "elite" is getting worn out these days.

Manning, Rodgers, Brees, & Brady are elite. No one else is.

[OriginalColtsFan]

Manning, Rodgers, Brees, & Brady are elite. No one else is.

So Eli isn't? Rivers isn't? For years people said Cutler was an elite/franchise QB. Part of my point is just that -- the term "elite" has become a useless term. Yet it's always thrown in Joe's face, isn't it? The truth is, there's very little elite about the Ravens. Their coaching staff isn't elite, that's for damn sure. Their defense isn't elite by any means. Their O-line certainly isn't elite. Their WRs are not elite. About the only discussion that even makes sense in terms of elite is Ray Rice, and Joe -- RR in terms of what he's accomplished already, and Joe in terms of what he's accomplished in the past 5 years, AND what he's projected to be able to accomplish down the road. He'd be more like an "elite in training", though.

[Frank Costanza 831]

So Eli isn't? Rivers isn't? For years people said Cutler was an elite/franchise QB. Part of my point is just that -- the term "elite" has become a useless term. Yet it's always thrown in Joe's face, isn't it? The truth is, there's very little elite about the Ravens. Their coaching staff isn't elite, that's for damn sure. Their defense isn't elite by any means. Their O-line certainly isn't elite. Their WRs are not elite. About the only discussion that even makes sense in terms of elite is Ray Rice, and Joe -- RR in terms of what he's accomplished already, and Joe in terms of what he's accomplished in the past 5 years, AND what he's projected to be able to accomplish down the road. He'd be more like an "elite in training", though.

^^this

[Ravens2006]

And I'll suggest it again...

Go look at the numbers through their first 4 or 5 years, for the "elite" guys like Manning, Rodgers, Brees, & Brady.

Which one was putting up "elite" numbers by their current standards? Compare their performance in the first 4 to 5 years to Joe's. Objectively. How much of a difference is / was there?

What year did Peyton finally dispatch the label of a great dome QB who couldn't get it done in the playoffs?

What year did Manning and Brees each win their first rings?

How many rings did Brady win while posting remarkably Flacco-like numbers? Really, go ahead and look it up. Despite some impressive records, how many rings has he won since becoming a human video game character?

Roethlisberger's 2008 campaign was quite Mark Sanchez-ian, yet he got a ring.

Not saying Joe is destined to become as good as those 3, maybe 4, future Hall-of-Famers. Just saying that in light of many an NFL QB's career, it's still too early to make broad proclamations about what he will or won't do...

[PEZ]

e·lite
[ih-leet, ey-leet]
noun
1. ( often used with a plural verb ) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.
2. ( used with a plural verb ) persons of the highest class: Only the elite were there.
3. a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party.
4. a type, approximately 10-point in printing-type size, widely used in typewriters and having 12 characters to the inch. Compare pica1 .
5. in football, representing a class of individuals who exemplify excellence, such as Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.

[SugarRay52]

isn't a real "elite" QB either, huh? He's had 5 games this year with a QB rating under 80. Poor Texans. They're 11-2, but have just an "average Joe" kinda QB. I guess they'll never win a super bowl with THAT bum. Maybe they can talk to SF and bring in Alex Smith to save the day. Whatcha all think?

Schaub is definitely not elite, take away Andre Johnson and the Houston defense and you will see the "real" Schaub. Houston gave him a 4 year contract extension earlier this year at $15.5mil a year ( http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-new-contract/) yet he's never won a playoff game and has durability issues. I wanted to put the info about Schaub's contract out there to the Flacco haters who think Joe deserves some cheap bargain contract, he's going to get paid at least $15 mil a year whether it's here or somewhere else (Go tweet Adam Caplan at caplannfl on twitter, he'll tell you what Joe's value is).

[Frank Costanza 831]

Schaub is definitely not elite, take away Andre Johnson and the Houston defense and you will see the "real" Schaub. Houston gave him a 4 year contract extension earlier this year at $15.5mil a year ( http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-new-contract/) yet he's never won a playoff game and has durability issues. I wanted to put the info about Schaub's contract out there to the Flacco haters who think Joe deserves some cheap bargain contract, he's going to get paid at least $15 mil a year whether it's here or somewhere else (Go tweet Adam Caplan at caplannfl on twitter, he'll tell you what Joe's value is).

He's never even played in a playoff game actually so i'll give him that. The one that the media LOVES to slobber over and heap accolades on is Matt Ryan. He has actually played in 3 playoff games and wet the bed in all 3 of them. So with his astonishing 0-3 postseason record i don't know how anyone can even call him good much less elite

[classea5]

Ravens 2006-I agree whole heartly and know exactly what you are saying.....thanks

[TDL]

I have yet to see any evolution in Flacco's game over the past three seasons.The same mistakes that he was making then he's making now.We can take the easy route and say the sole reason he has failed to develop over these past three seasons is because of Cam Cameron.That very well may be the case.However, the possibility exist that Flacco will never develop into the QB we all want him to be and what he is now is what he's going to be for the rest of his career.

As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on him and this is his opportunity to show that he is capable of learning from his mistakes by not continuously repeating them.

[BlandFood]

Manning, Rodgers, Brees, & Brady are elite. No one else is.

If I had Brees receivers even *I* might be Super Elite.

[cprenegade]

There are only 6 starting QB's in todays NFL that have been to a Superbowl and all have won at least one. Four of them have won multiple rings, 5 of them have been to multiple Superbowls. In addition, all 6 have good enough statistics, winning regular season percentages, and consistent playoff wins to be considered "elite" (for whatever that term means). Those six are Brady, P. Manning, E. Manning, Roethlisberger, Brees and Rogers. In addition, there are two current backups who have been to Superbowls, one winning and one losing. You can figure those two out. Neither have the stats, winning pct, or playoff history that you would consider them "elite".

[OriginalColtsFan]

I'd definitely include Ben in the "elite" QB group.

[Captain Spaulding]

The last time I looked, football was a team game. While the quarterback is probably the most important position, it has been proven that an average quarterback can lead an otherwise good team to a very good record. Just look at the Ravens with Dilfer, and most of the past 5 years.

As for the Joe being "elite" stuff, unless my memory is faulty, it was Joe himself that was whining about not being considered "elite", most likely due to his win loss record (I'm very glad for him that he had the benefit of playing with a top 5 defense all those years BTW, and I'm sure that they contributed NOTHING to those wins ). So, he has no one to blame but himself about the talks of him being "elite" or not.

Now that Cameron is gone maybe he can answer some questions about how good he truly is. What if he has another inconsistant year next year? Will the excuse then be that he had to learn a new system? When will we ever know how good Joe is?

As for Shaub, I never considered him "elite" either, I consider him somewhere in the Flacco range...

[OriginalColtsFan]

The last time I looked, football was a team game. While the quarterback is probably the most important position, it has been proven that an average quarterback can lead an otherwise good team to a very good record. Just look at the Ravens with Dilfer, and most of the past 5 years.

As for the Joe being "elite" stuff, unless my memory is faulty, it was Joe himself that was whining about not being considered "elite", most likely due to his win loss record (I'm very glad for him that he had the benefit of playing with a top 5 defense all those years BTW, and I'm sure that they contributed NOTHING to those wins ). So, he has no one to blame but himself about the talks of him being "elite" or not.

Now that Cameron is gone maybe he can answer some questions about how good he truly is. What if he has another inconsistant year next year? Will the excuse then be that he had to learn a new system? When will we ever know how good Joe is?

As for Shaub, I never considered him "elite" either, I consider him somewhere in the Flacco range...

Joe has proven himself to be a lot more durable than Schaub.

[Peej7245]

I have yet to see any evolution in Flacco's game over the past three seasons.The same mistakes that he was making then he's making now.We can take the easy route and say the sole reason he has failed to develop over these past three seasons is because of Cam Cameron.That very well may be the case.However, the possibility exist that Flacco will never develop into the QB we all want him to be and what he is now is what he's going to be for the rest of his career.

As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on him and this is his opportunity to show that he is capable of learning from his mistakes by not continuously repeating them.

The "same mistakes" seem to boil down to 1) pocket presence and 2) progressions. Let's look at them shall we?

1) Flacco doesn't seem to care if he takes a sack because more often that not, he has made it up in a subsequent play. But let's look at WHY. How many times do we see a set of vanilla patterns where NO receiver comes open? Many of us fans have complained about the lack of creative route planning.

Let me give an example. Two wideouts and a TE to the right. At the snap, two of the three run fly patterns and the third runs a crossing route. Flacco fakes a handoff to Rice and runs the bootleg to his right. When the defender rushes him, Flacco tosses to Leach for an easy 8-10 yards. Where is the deep out route on this play? That would both put pressure on the guy who covers Leach but also would open up another option for Flacco another 15 yards downfield!

Another example (referenced by Bucky Brooks' article), why is Torrey Smith not given shallow crossing routes? On 3 of 4 plays, the defender might tackle Smith limiting the play to a gain of 5-10 yards. But oh that fourth play - he just might elude that first tackle and pick up another 25-35 yards!

2) Progressions - If no one is open and the defense has a spy on the checkdown receiver, Tom Brady is going to be sacked. Peyton Manning too. You can put any name you want and that QB will go down. The difference is those aforementioned QBs were looking at receivers running routes that were the result of creative route planning and seem to have someone open at all times!

Watching games this year, how many times did we see a balanced formation: 1 WR split from each end of the line and 1 or 2 TEs? Sorry folks, but I and several of you fellow fans could cover those routes! Why is Brady so great? Why is Mannning so great? Why is Flacco deemed "jury still out?" Does Brady or Manning have a better arm? Puhleeeese! If you look at the tools, they are all VERY similar, but the difference is that each of these QBs has led offenses that utilize all the tricks of the trace (rubs, bunch formations, etc.) - anything to get at least one guy OPEN.

[tigercruise]

Why is Brady so great? Why is Mannning so great? Why is Flacco deemed "jury still out?" Does Brady or Manning have a better arm? Puhleeeese! If you look at the tools, they are all VERY similar, but the difference is that each of these QBs has led offenses that utilize all the tricks of the trace (rubs, bunch formations, etc.) - anything to get at least one guy OPEN.

Excellent post and spot on. Watching the NE game Monday night that's all I could think of - great offensive play calling. Imaginative and exciting. Something that was terribly lacking with Cameron. We'll see on Sunday if things look a bit different.