Greg Cosell audio on Joe Flacco

[OriginalColtsFan]

Check this out!!

http://wnst.net/audio-vault/?listen=...20time%20clock

It's not really a slam of Cameron, but it does put everything in the proper perspective, IMO. He states that Joe does not have the best internal clock or great movement, and the schemes (basically isolation one on one routes, vs bunch, motion, etc), along with WRs who can't get separation in one on one coverage, all work together to result in inconsistent results. Spot on, for the most part.

He also states that given the Ravens current configuration, they'd be best served using the run to set up the pass. I have not always felt that way, but after listening to his analysis, I now believe that he is correct and that that's the best way for the Ravens to proceed. Along that line he points out that New England has the third most rushes in the NFL. Yet they also have a prolific passing game. That's the model that the Ravens should follow, IMO.

I personally felt that Greg took it a bit too easy on the O-line and Cam Cameron, but all in all, he knows what he's seeing and he knows what he's talking about. Specifically, he blasts the notion that it's ONE THING that's ever wrong; all of the elements that make up an NFL offense are simply much more complex than that; it's a team effort, and THAT'S reality. So these morons who are jumping all over Joe as if he's the one and only element in this offense are totally absurd.

[doktorluv]

Check this out!!

http://wnst.net/audio-vault/?listen=...20time%20clock

It's not really a slam of Cameron, but it does put everything in the proper perspective, IMO. He states that Joe does not have the best internal clock or great movement, and the schemes (basically isolation one on one routes, vs bunch, motion, etc), along with WRs who can't get separation in one on one coverage, all work together to result in inconsistent results. Spot on, for the most part.

He also states that given the Ravens current configuration, they'd be best served using the run to set up the pass. I have not always felt that way, but after listening to his analysis, I now believe that he is correct and that that's the best way for the Ravens to proceed. Along that line he points out that New England has the third most rushes in the NFL. Yet they also have a prolific passing game. That's the model that the Ravens should follow, IMO.

I personally felt that Greg took it a bit too easy on the O-line and Cam Cameron, but all in all, he knows what he's seeing and he knows what he's talking about. Specifically, he blasts the notion that it's ONE THING that's ever wrong; all of the elements that make up an NFL offense are simply much more complex than that; it's a team effort, and THAT'S reality. So these morons who are jumping all over Joe as if he's the one and only element in this offense are totally absurd.

Do you want to get busy with Flacco or something?

[OriginalColtsFan]

Do you want to get busy with Flacco or something?

Translation: "I've got NOTHING to add, so I'll just toss out some sexual innuendo chit".

Thanks for playing. And losing.

Next?

[Steveg85321]

I am no great football expert, but I have long felt that the root of all success and failure in the NFL is what happens in the trench. In the case of the Ravens' offense, the OL is a patchwork affair at best, and at worst has been undermanned and mismanaged all year and probably for many years (as in since Ogden retired). Given that it is what it is, to me they should concentrate on run blocking, which is simpler and more fun, and when passing make sure they are very quick developing plays that don't require protecting the QB for too long. Getting the ball out quickly to Torrey Smith, Ray Rice, and Vonte Leach with room to move should help.

[OriginalColtsFan]

I am no great football expert, but I have long felt that the root of all success and failure in the NFL is what happens in the trench. In the case of the Ravens' offense, the OL is a patchwork affair at best, and at worst has been undermanned and mismanaged all year and probably for many years (as in since Ogden retired). Given that it is what it is, to me they should concentrate on run blocking, which is simpler and more fun, and when passing make sure they are very quick developing plays that don't require protecting the QB for too long. Getting the ball out quickly to Torrey Smith, Ray Rice, and Vonte Leach with room to move should help.

1. Everything DOES start/end with the wars won in the trenches, especially on short yardage situations.
2. The Ravens O-line is actually not that much better in run blocking than it is in pass blocking. So the only REAL solution is to DESIGN PLAYS that keep the D guessing, design passing plays that are QUICK developing plays that minimize the wear and tear on the O-line, run misdirections on run and pass plays, use motion to keep the D from being able to tee off, and run an up tempo offense that tends to tire out the D, thus giving your O-line at least some help in that regard. Also, putting the right players in the right positions is key. Oher at LT is a huge mistake. But stubborn coaching seems to refuse to acknowledge that reality.

[doktorluv]

1. Everything DOES start/end with the wars won in the trenches, especially on short yardage situations.
2. The Ravens O-line is actually not that much better in run blocking than it is in pass blocking. So the only REAL solution is to DESIGN PLAYS that keep the D guessing, design passing plays that are QUICK developing plays that minimize the wear and tear on the O-line, run misdirections on run and pass plays, use motion to keep the D from being able to tee off, and run an up tempo offense that tends to tire out the D, thus giving your O-line at least some help in that regard. Also, putting the right players in the right positions is key. Oher at LT is a huge mistake. But stubborn coaching seems to refuse to acknowledge that reality.

... said the expert

I'm truly shocked that you're not coaching in the NFL

[baltiMOREO&R]

Last time I checked... screens, quick 3 step slants and draws render a good pass rush useless and a bad oline 'successful'. As you state, the play calling matters.

[OriginalColtsFan]

... said the expert

I'm truly shocked that you're not coaching in the NFL

And I'm shocked you can even turn on a computer.



Since you clearly have nothing constructive to add...why not just take your expertise elsewhere? I'm sure SOMEONE out there is just dying to hear what you have to say, right?

[doktorluv]

And I'm shocked you can even turn on a computer.



Since you clearly have nothing constructive to add...why not just take your expertise elsewhere? I'm sure SOMEONE out there is just dying to hear what you have to say, right?

Because, for the moment at least, it's too much fun winding you up

And too easy

[OriginalColtsFan]

Because, for the moment at least, it's too much fun winding you up

And too easy

The definition of a troll. Wow. 67 posts in 3 1/2 years. Go crawl back underneath whatever rock you slithered out from and let the humans talk football.

[tacker]

The Ravens offense under Cam and Flacco suffered a lethal combination of defects:

They had/have predictable, conservative playcalling, making it far easier for defenses to know what's coming. In particular, the routine use of shotgun for passing and over-center for runs made it absurdly simple to predict run/pass percentages. The Ravens have moved further and further from play-action set-ups.

I have heard the complaint that our receivers can't get separation and reject that categorically. The Ravens have one of the league's best receiver corps, bar none. The problem with the passing game is that we never throw over the middle. And, that's either because of one or both issues: 1) Flacco can't be quick and accurate enough and/or 2) the OC didn't think so, so we never call those plays.

Either Manning, or a Brady, Brees, or, heck, bunches of decent QB's, would decimate teams with Boldin running quick slants. That play should be near unstoppable, with a big, tough receiver with hands like glue, who can punish people with the ball, too. That we don't use Boldin that way is ridiculous. If Flacco can't drill a pass in there accurately when somebody gets half a step, then, he's never going to be great, period. If that's the case, get rid of him sooner, rather than later.

And, how many times have we seen Smith five yards beyond coverage, and Flacco, with his supposed strong arm, underthrows the ball, forcing Smith to fight for the reception and to have an incompletion, when he should be sashaying into the endzone?

Or, take the play Sunday where Flacco tried to run. There's Boldin as wide open as a Kansas prairie, slanting across the middle in the same direction that Flacco is rolling, but Flacco is blind to his existence. A great QB gets a TD 80% of the time on that play.

So, to sum it up, they've had playcalling problems and execution problems. It's harder to execute when there's no cleverness or deceptiveness on play design. And, it's apparently compounded by Flacco's inconsistency and inability to make quick decisions and drill passes where they're needed, consistently. All of this needs to be remedied, if the Ravens are ever to be a serious threat.

[OriginalColtsFan]

The Ravens offense under Cam and Flacco suffered a lethal combination of defects:

They had/have predictable, conservative playcalling, making it far easier for defenses to know what's coming. In particular, the routine use of shotgun for passing and over-center for runs made it absurdly simple to predict run/pass percentages. The Ravens have moved further and further from play-action set-ups.

I have heard the complaint that our receivers can't get separation and reject that categorically. The Ravens have one of the league's best receiver corps, bar none. The problem with the passing game is that we never throw over the middle. And, that's either because of one or both issues: 1) Flacco can't be quick and accurate enough and/or 2) the OC didn't think so, so we never call those plays.

Either Manning, or a Brady, Brees, or, heck, bunches of decent QB's, would decimate teams with Boldin running quick slants. That play should be near unstoppable, with a big, tough receiver with hands like glue, who can punish people with the ball, too. That we don't use Boldin that way is ridiculous. If Flacco can't drill a pass in there accurately when somebody gets half a step, then, he's never going to be great, period. If that's the case, get rid of him sooner, rather than later.

And, how many times have we seen Smith five yards beyond coverage, and Flacco, with his supposed strong arm, underthrows the ball, forcing Smith to fight for the reception and to have an incompletion, when he should be sashaying into the endzone?

Or, take the play Sunday where Flacco tried to run. There's Boldin as wide open as a Kansas prairie, slanting across the middle in the same direction that Flacco is rolling, but Flacco is blind to his existence. A great QB gets a TD 80% of the time on that play.

So, to sum it up, they've had playcalling problems and execution problems. It's harder to execute when there's no cleverness or deceptiveness on play design. And, it's apparently compounded by Flacco's inconsistency and inability to make quick decisions and drill passes where they're needed, consistently. All of this needs to be remedied, if the Ravens are ever to be a serious threat.

Respectfully...

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but I can count on one hand the times I'VE seen Smith "5 yards beyond coverage". What I HAVE seen is Smith unable to track balls accurately in the air, Smith drop passes all over the place, Smith run the wrong routes, Smith simply stop running and the ball sails over his head. THOSE things I've seen consistently.

I've ALSO not seen Boldin's "hands of glue". More like Boldin's hands of goo. He's dropped passes right between the numbers, rarely gets separation on the patterns he's been forced to run (few slants, which is his forte). So maybe we're just seeing different things. But as Cosell points out, the schemes played directly into Joe's weaknesses, not strengths. So I want to see what happens now that Cameron is gone.

[tacker]

Respectfully...

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but I can count on one hand the times I'VE seen Smith "5 yards beyond coverage". What I HAVE seen is Smith unable to track balls accurately in the air, Smith drop passes all over the place, Smith run the wrong routes, Smith simply stop running and the ball sails over his head. THOSE things I've seen consistently.

I've ALSO not seen Boldin's "hands of glue". More like Boldin's hands of goo. He's dropped passes right between the numbers, rarely gets separation on the patterns he's been forced to run (few slants, which is his forte). So maybe we're just seeing different things. But as Cosell points out, the schemes played directly into Joe's weaknesses, not strengths. So I want to see what happens now that Cameron is gone.

Well, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've seen plent of cases where Smith has gotten open and Flacco throws the ball anywhere but to him. Granted, there have been a few beautiful plays, too, but far too many misses. Smith is not a "possession" receiver, so when Flacco causes him to have to battle for balls, he's much less effective. Is Smith perfect? No, but he's been utilized rather ineffeciently, too.

As for Boldin, yes, we must be watching different games. That guy has made more big catches for the team than any other receiver. He has excellent hands and is a truck after getting the ball. Instead, what do we see? Plays that have him running comeback patterns or outs, where his after-catch effectiveness is blunted, and where Flacco is forced to make longer throws, which he often throws high, which, again neutralizes how Boldin is most effective.

Belichick and Brady would run slants to Boldin on every play until they forced the defense to try to stop them. Then, they'd go long on the tightened-up defense. The raven's are clueless in game strategy and completely donate the center of the field to the opponents, trying endless out patterns, sideline routes, passes behind the line of scrimmage, check-downs. They rarely throw "grown-up" pass plays that winners execute in the NFL.

[OriginalColtsFan]

Well, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've seen plent of cases where Smith has gotten open and Flacco throws the ball anywhere but to him. Granted, there have been a few beautiful plays, too, but far too many misses. Smith is not a "possession" receiver, so when Flacco causes him to have to battle for balls, he's much less effective. Is Smith perfect? No, but he's been utilized rather ineffeciently, too.

As for Boldin, yes, we must be watching different games. That guy has made more big catches for the team than any other receiver. He has excellent hands and is a truck after getting the ball. Instead, what do we see? Plays that have him running comeback patterns or outs, where his after-catch effectiveness is blunted, and where Flacco is forced to make longer throws, which he often throws high, which, again neutralizes how Boldin is most effective.

Belichick and Brady would run slants to Boldin on every play until they forced the defense to try to stop them. Then, they'd go long on the tightened-up defense. The raven's are clueless in game strategy and completely donate the center of the field to the opponents, trying endless out patterns, sideline routes, passes behind the line of scrimmage, check-downs. They rarely throw "grown-up" pass plays that winners execute in the NFL.

With regard to Boldin, aren't we saying the same thing as far as him not been utilized properly? But again...those are the schemes. I remember early on when Cameron sent Boldin long and Jones short. It was the exact OPPOSITE of their strengths, IMO.

As far as Smith not being able to fight for the ball...I don't know, man. If a WR can't go up and fight for the ball, he's not going to be very effective in today's NFL IMO.

[cprenegade]

I agree that the problem is not all Joe Flacco, but rather a multitude of issues starting with the playcalling of Cameron and the play of the offensive line. But Flacco does deserve his share of the blame. He is still a little slow at reading through all of his progressions. That is probably just something that will always be with him. Just like kids with math, some QB's learn to read them quick, some never do. Flacco's been around long enough that he should be a little quicker by now. He also has a tendency to be streaky with his accuracy. And that streakiness doesn't just go from game to game, it can go from half to half. I've noticed that when you hit him and put him on the ground a few times, he tends to start sailing the ball. He almost got Torrey Smith cut in half going after a high throw in the Pittsburgh game. I don't think it's a question on not wanting to get hit, but rather one of not wanting to take the negative sack play so he rushes his throws. All in all, I wouldn't pin all of the blame on Flacco, but I also wouldn't expect him to become like Tom Brady all of the sudden either. He isn't a top tier QB, but he certainly is a second tier one that could lead a team all the way, provided all the other parts around him are solid. And that's the point. All the other parts around him on the 2012 Raven's team are NOT solid.

[OriginalColtsFan]

I agree that the problem is not all Joe Flacco, but rather a multitude of issues starting with the playcalling of Cameron and the play of the offensive line. But Flacco does deserve his share of the blame. He is still a little slow at reading through all of his progressions. That is probably just something that will always be with him. Just like kids with math, some QB's learn to read them quick, some never do. Flacco's been around long enough that he should be a little quicker by now. He also has a tendency to be streaky with his accuracy. And that streakiness doesn't just go from game to game, it can go from half to half. I've noticed that when you hit him and put him on the ground a few times, he tends to start sailing the ball. He almost got Torrey Smith cut in half going after a high throw in the Pittsburgh game. I don't think it's a question on not wanting to get hit, but rather one of not wanting to take the negative sack play so he rushes his throws. All in all, I wouldn't pin all of the blame on Flacco, but I also wouldn't expect him to become like Tom Brady all of the sudden either. He isn't a top tier QB, but he certainly is a second tier one that could lead a team all the way, provided all the other parts around him are solid. And that's the point. All the other parts around him on the 2012 Raven's team are NOT solid.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that I don't think you really listened to the audio tape, did you? If not, it's okay. It just sounds as if you're commenting on what you think about Joe Flacco -- something you've done before; rather than commenting on what Greg Cosell had to say based upon his game film analysis.

[RavingManiac]

do you want to get busy with flacco or something?

lmao!!!

[RavingManiac]

The definition of a troll. Wow. 67 posts in 3 1/2 years. Go crawl back underneath whatever rock you slithered out from and let the humans talk football.

What is it with you and join dates? You attack me because I joined this forum like 9 years ago or somwhere around there and now you attack this guy's join date and the amount of posts he has posted? Is this your "go to" move or something? You got to have better than that. I'm starting to feel sorry for you.

[doktorluv]

The definition of a troll. Wow. 67 posts in 3 1/2 years. Go crawl back underneath whatever rock you slithered out from and let the humans talk football.

And again

Keep working it

[Ravens2006]

Speaking of Flacco...

Thursday Night Football just featured a montage of clips showing all of the Bengals costly drops last week against Dallas. I think they got up to a whopping 5. Why am I bothering to mention this?

Think back to week two, Ravens at Eagles. Flacco's receivers had at least 5 official "drops" if I remember correctly, and if you throw in balls that weren't EASY catches, but the kind you routinely see quality WRs make to bail out their QB, it was more like 8 or 9.

Why does it matter?

Because to your average national viewer, they'll see that and go "Wow, Dalton should have won that game but his receivers let him down."

For whatever reason, you NEVER see Flacco treated with that kind of perspective from the broader media. They could probably fill an entire instant replay review break with Ed Dickson drops. And more and more the last year, odd Boldin drops. They didn't show Dalton's bad decision / INT that led to a quick Dallas TD. There was no segment the following week during the Ravens / Patriots game showing all of the Ravens receivers' drops the week before.

As I write this... Dalton just fumbled on an edge rush where he "failed to recognize the pressure", "showed no sense of pocket presence", "locked on to a receiver", "didn't get the ball out in time", and turned the ball over on their own side of midfield... yet ALL of the commentary is about what a great play the Eagles player made.

Perception...