Greg Cosell audio on Joe Flacco

[OriginalColtsFan]

Speaking of Flacco...

Thursday Night Football just featured a montage of clips showing all of the Bengals costly drops last week against Dallas. I think they got up to a whopping 5. Why am I bothering to mention this?

Think back to week two, Ravens at Eagles. Flacco's receivers had at least 5 official "drops" if I remember correctly, and if you throw in balls that weren't EASY catches, but the kind you routinely see quality WRs make to bail out their QB, it was more like 8 or 9.

Why does it matter?

Because to your average national viewer, they'll see that and go "Wow, Dalton should have won that game but his receivers let him down."

For whatever reason, you NEVER see Flacco treated with that kind of perspective from the broader media. They could probably fill an entire instant replay review break with Ed Dickson drops. And more and more the last year, odd Boldin drops. They didn't show Dalton's bad decision / INT that led to a quick Dallas TD. There was no segment the following week during the Ravens / Patriots game showing all of the Ravens receivers' drops the week before.

As I write this... Dalton just fumbled on an edge rush where he "failed to recognize the pressure", "showed no sense of pocket presence", "locked on to a receiver", "didn't get the ball out in time", and turned the ball over on their own side of midfield... yet ALL of the commentary is about what a great play the Eagles player made.

Perception...

Make that TWO fumbles from Dalton -- the second one almost identical to the first.

(SIDE NOTE: On that second fumble, what a cool design/stunt to FORCE the fumble in the first place. Ever see Pees design such an effective play? I haven't.)

[SugarRay52]

Make that TWO fumbles from Dalton -- the second one almost identical to the first.

(SIDE NOTE: On that second fumble, what a cool design/stunt to FORCE the fumble in the first place. Ever see Pees design such an effective play? I haven't.)

Dalton fumbles twice but I'm pretty sure the "objective" members of the media will give him a pass. I'm not going to condone Joe's fumbles but it's not fair that everytime he makes a big mistake he gets crucified but when other young QBs make the same mistakes they get more of a pass.

[OriginalColtsFan]

Dalton fumbles twice but I'm pretty sure the "objective" members of the media will give him a pass. I'm not going to condone Joe's fumbles but it's not fair that everytime he makes a big mistake he gets crucified but when other young QBs make the same mistakes they get more of a pass.

The thing that I don't quite get is this (aside from the fact that Joe appears to be under some sort of special microscope under which all of his mistakes are magnified). The closest "competitor" to Joe is certainly Matt Ryan. They were drafted the same year, and their numbers, for the most part, are very similar. But unless I've totally missed it, I almost never hear Joe and Matt being compared. To me they were pretty similar when they were drafted, and they've remained pretty similar all along. Is anyone screaming about how Ryan isn't "elite", or questioning if the Falcons should extend his contract, or how much money he should get?

Here are Ryan's career stats:

Pass Attempts: 2,419
Pass Completions: 1,500
Percentage Completion: 62
TD-INT: 115-58
Passing Yards: 17,310
Passer Rating: 89.4

Here are Joe's career stats:

Pass Attempts: 2,299
Pass Completions: 1,396
Percentage Completion: 60.7
TD-INT: 93-53
Passing Yards: 16,311
Passer Rating: 86.1

Now, while Ryan has more TDs, and a slightly higher passer rating, for the most part, Joe and Matt are more similar than dissimilar, and Joe has many more post season victories than Matt. So wouldn't it make the most sense to be comparing these 2 QBs when it comes to how much each should be getting as far as contract extensions are concerned? And if Joe "sucks", doesn't Ryan also "suck"? You can't have it both ways.

[cprenegade]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that I don't think you really listened to the audio tape, did you? If not, it's okay. It just sounds as if you're commenting on what you think about Joe Flacco -- something you've done before; rather than commenting on what Greg Cosell had to say based upon his game film analysis.

No, I listened to it. And I can't disagree with what he says. What I heard him say was that Flacco is not the most consistent QB, his internal clock is not the best, and that Cameron has tried to make him into an intermediate/downfield passer. I agree with all of them. I believe Flacco is a second tier QB. I don't think he will ever be a top tier QB, but that doesn't mean he is a bad QB or can't win in the right scheme. Like I said, I can't disagree with him. I think Flacco is better as a game manager and a short passing game QB. He also said Flacco needs to get better at recognizing where the ball needs to go quickly, and that comes down to quickly reading progressions, which I don't think Flacco does very well. I'm not bashing Flacco, I'm just saying that I think he is limited in some of the things he can do and asking him to be something he isn't only leads to the type of failures we have seen. We will see how things progress now that Cameron is gone. Seems to me that the Ravens were a much better team in Flacco's first two years when they basically relied on their running game, and asked him to make the shorter throws rather than trying to make him into the second coming of Daryl Lamonica. Of course, the defense was much better then, than it is now. All in all, I think Flacco is a good QB, I don't think he is or ever will be a great QB. But maybe he will prove me wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

[cprenegade]

Speaking of Flacco...

Thursday Night Football just featured a montage of clips showing all of the Bengals costly drops last week against Dallas. I think they got up to a whopping 5. Why am I bothering to mention this?

Think back to week two, Ravens at Eagles. Flacco's receivers had at least 5 official "drops" if I remember correctly, and if you throw in balls that weren't EASY catches, but the kind you routinely see quality WRs make to bail out their QB, it was more like 8 or 9.

Why does it matter?

Because to your average national viewer, they'll see that and go "Wow, Dalton should have won that game but his receivers let him down."

For whatever reason, you NEVER see Flacco treated with that kind of perspective from the broader media. They could probably fill an entire instant replay review break with Ed Dickson drops. And more and more the last year, odd Boldin drops. They didn't show Dalton's bad decision / INT that led to a quick Dallas TD. There was no segment the following week during the Ravens / Patriots game showing all of the Ravens receivers' drops the week before.

As I write this... Dalton just fumbled on an edge rush where he "failed to recognize the pressure", "showed no sense of pocket presence", "locked on to a receiver", "didn't get the ball out in time", and turned the ball over on their own side of midfield... yet ALL of the commentary is about what a great play the Eagles player made.

Perception...

Well, I think first of all that Andy Dalton is only in his second year. I don't remember Flacco taking a lot of heat in his second year. But as time goes on, expectations grow. Flacco is now in his fifth year, so naturally local press is getting a little more pushy. If Dalton is still doing the same things in his fifth year, I bet the Cincinnati media will be a lot like the Baltimore media. Look at Tony Romo. He's still doing a lot of the same things he's done all of his career and the Dallas media is crucifying him. As a QB progresses through his career, some of the mistakes he makes early should be corrected. Peyton Manning through at least two out passes returned for TD's in his first year. Eventually, Manning learned that the defenses are quicker in the NFL and the throws you got away with in college could not be made in the NFL. When people see Flacco continuing to get stripped from behind in his fifth year the way he was in his rookie year, they see a problem. That's why the media, especially the local media, is on Flacco more than Dalton. If Dalton is still making the same mistakes 3 years from now you can bet he will be getting the heat in the Cincinnati papers.

[Peej7245]

No, I listened to it. And I can't disagree with what he says. What I heard him say was that Flacco is not the most consistent QB, his internal clock is not the best, and that Cameron has tried to make him into an intermediate/downfield passer. I agree with all of them. I believe Flacco is a second tier QB. I don't think he will ever be a top tier QB, but that doesn't mean he is a bad QB or can't win in the right scheme. Like I said, I can't disagree with him. I think Flacco is better as a game manager and a short passing game QB. He also said Flacco needs to get better at recognizing where the ball needs to go quickly, and that comes down to quickly reading progressions, which I don't think Flacco does very well. I'm not bashing Flacco, I'm just saying that I think he is limited in some of the things he can do and asking him to be something he isn't only leads to the type of failures we have seen. We will see how things progress now that Cameron is gone. Seems to me that the Ravens were a much better team in Flacco's first two years when they basically relied on their running game, and asked him to make the shorter throws rather than trying to make him into the second coming of Daryl Lamonica. Of course, the defense was much better then, than it is now. All in all, I think Flacco is a good QB, I don't think he is or ever will be a great QB. But maybe he will prove me wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

No that is not what Cosell said.

He said that Flacco's only major shortcoming is that he needs to improve his "internal clock" and throw the ball away more often.

Cosell said that his inconsistency is due partly to that "internal clock" issue but as much or more due to the kinds of route combinations that have been called. He opined that since the Ravens WRs have difficulty gettting separation in the isolation routes that are their staple, Flacco is forced to hold onto the ball longer. He also opined that what was missing were the rubs, crossing patterns, bunch formations that would result in SOMEONE being open.

As to Progressions, you need to watch Ravens games closely and you will see that Flacco does go through his progressions. The only problem is, like in the aforementioned separation issue (or lack of separation issue), watch Flacco's eyes and you will see that he does see all the receivers.

Cosell said that Flacco is a good NFL QB with the strongest arm in the NFL. He believes that Flacco can be much better than that but it will take a new route planning philosophy that does not force him to stand in the pocket waiting for someone to get open then either taking the sack or dumping off to the RB.

[OriginalColtsFan]

No that is not what Cosell said.

He said that Flacco's only major shortcoming is that he needs to improve his "internal clock" and throw the ball away more often.

Cosell said that his inconsistency is due partly to that "internal clock" issue but as much or more due to the kinds of route combinations that have been called. He opined that since the Ravens WRs have difficulty gettting separation in the isolation routes that are their staple, Flacco is forced to hold onto the ball longer. He also opined that what was missing were the rubs, crossing patterns, bunch formations that would result in SOMEONE being open.

As to Progressions, you need to watch Ravens games closely and you will see that Flacco does go through his progressions. The only problem is, like in the aforementioned separation issue (or lack of separation issue), watch Flacco's eyes and you will see that he does see all the receivers.

Cosell said that Flacco is a good NFL QB with the strongest arm in the NFL. He believes that Flacco can be much better than that but it will take a new route planning philosophy that does not force him to stand in the pocket waiting for someone to get open then either taking the sack or dumping off to the RB.

Exactly. Thanks.

[Baltimore Ravens Lets Go!]

Last time I checked... screens, quick 3 step slants and draws render a good pass rush useless and a bad oline 'successful'. As you state, the play calling matters.

You cannot keep doing just those three things. The defense will start putting nine in the box with the two safeties up top and you will start loosing yards on those plays. It isn't that simple, if it was they would do so.

[OriginalColtsFan]

You cannot keep doing just those three things. The defense will start putting nine in the box with the two safeties up top and you will start loosing yards on those plays. It isn't that simple, if it was they would do so.

Of course you can't keep doing JUST those three things, but you HAVE to mix THOSE THREE THINGS into the game plan or else you get pinned down over and over again. Which is exactly what kept happening with Cam Cameron's low percentage, YOU TWO GO DEEP offense. Sometimes you have to pound the rock. Sometimes you have to go deep. But you can't win in this NFL without using the middle of the field. And that's something that Cam Cameron never learned and never understood. And that's why he's gone.

[West Chester Raven]

Respectfully...

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but I can count on one hand the times I'VE seen Smith "5 yards beyond coverage". What I HAVE seen is Smith unable to track balls accurately in the air, Smith drop passes all over the place, Smith run the wrong routes, Smith simply stop running and the ball sails over his head. THOSE things I've seen consistently.

I've ALSO not seen Boldin's "hands of glue". More like Boldin's hands of goo. He's dropped passes right between the numbers, rarely gets separation on the patterns he's been forced to run (few slants, which is his forte). So maybe we're just seeing different things. But as Cosell points out, the schemes played directly into Joe's weaknesses, not strengths. So I want to see what happens now that Cameron is gone.

OCF: Hate to burden the discussion with stats & facts, but figured I'd jump in here:
Fact: Boldin has been targeted 99 times and caught 58 for 58% catch rate.
Let's see how that stacks up to other WR's of note.
C Johnson: 96/157/61%
AJ Green: 85/144/59%
Larry Fitzgerald: 57/131/44% - What? Larry? Must have a bad QB or something.
Eric Decker: 64/98/65% - What? Eric Decker>Fitzgerald? OR is it the QB? Hmm.
Point: Boldin's catch % by targets is fine. Is it the best? No. Is it in company with some of the better receivers in the league? Yes it is.
What the stats also show is a direct correlation between the catch % and quality of the QB. This means - how catchable are the balls? Are the sailing above the WR's head?
Boldin is a fine receiver - he is PLENTY good enough along with T. Smith and Dennis Pitta. The receiving corps is fine.

[OriginalColtsFan]

OCF: Hate to burden the discussion with stats & facts, but figured I'd jump in here:
Fact: Boldin has been targeted 99 times and caught 58 for 58% catch rate.
Let's see how that stacks up to other WR's of note.
C Johnson: 96/157/61%
AJ Green: 85/144/59%
Larry Fitzgerald: 57/131/44% - What? Larry? Must have a bad QB or something.
Eric Decker: 64/98/65% - What? Eric Decker>Fitzgerald? OR is it the QB? Hmm.
Point: Boldin's catch % by targets is fine. Is it the best? No. Is it in company with some of the better receivers in the league? Yes it is.
What the stats also show is a direct correlation between the catch % and quality of the QB. This means - how catchable are the balls? Are the sailing above the WR's head?
Boldin is a fine receiver - he is PLENTY good enough along with T. Smith and Dennis Pitta. The receiving corps is fine.

LOL. M'kay.

[RavingManiac]

OCF: Hate to burden the discussion with stats & facts, but figured I'd jump in here:
Fact: Boldin has been targeted 99 times and caught 58 for 58% catch rate.
Let's see how that stacks up to other WR's of note.
C Johnson: 96/157/61%
AJ Green: 85/144/59%
Larry Fitzgerald: 57/131/44% - What? Larry? Must have a bad QB or something.
Eric Decker: 64/98/65% - What? Eric Decker>Fitzgerald? OR is it the QB? Hmm.
Point: Boldin's catch % by targets is fine. Is it the best? No. Is it in company with some of the better receivers in the league? Yes it is.
What the stats also show is a direct correlation between the catch % and quality of the QB. This means - how catchable are the balls? Are the sailing above the WR's head?
Boldin is a fine receiver - he is PLENTY good enough along with T. Smith and Dennis Pitta. The receiving corps is fine.

WCR, I learned last week when I posted Flacco's stats, including his QB rating, that stats are meaningless. QB rating means absolutely nothing. Ints mean absolutely nothing. Yards mean absolutely nothing. So I'm sure your stats mean absolutely nothing. Unless, of course, that the stats are in Flacco's favor.

[OriginalColtsFan]

WCR, I learned last week when I posted Flacco's stats, including his QB rating, that stats are meaningless. QB rating means absolutely nothing. Ints mean absolutely nothing. Yards mean absolutely nothing. So I'm sure your stats mean absolutely nothing. Unless, of course, that the stats are in Flacco's favor.

LOL. So your non-response to the CAREER stats of Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan, which are much more similar than they are dissimilar, says what? That you're incapable of actually DEALING with stats that don't coincide with your agenda? That Matt Ryan is ALSO an "average" QB who should not be given a big time extension? Do let me know, m'kay?

Furthermore, Greg Cosell has looked at EVERY SNAP of Joe Flacco over the course of his entire career, and even some college film. His conclusions: 1. Joe Flacco is a good QB who can make every throw. 2. Joe Flacco has room to improve, especially when it comes to his internal clock and reading blitz packages. 3. Joe Flacco (and his STATS) have been hampered by his OC.

Now...THAT is a FULL picture of an NFL QB. And one that is EARNED from having looked at EVERY NFL SNAP Joe has ever had under center. That is a credible source, and an accurate assessment. What do YOU bring to the table? Nothing even close.

[RavingManiac]

LOL. So your non-response to the CAREER stats of Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan, which are much more similar than they are dissimilar, says what? That you're incapable of actually DEALING with stats that don't coincide with your agenda? That Matt Ryan is ALSO an "average" QB who should not be given a big time extension? Do let me know, m'kay?

Furthermore, Greg Cosell has looked at EVERY SNAP of Joe Flacco over the course of his entire career, and even some college film. His conclusions: 1. Joe Flacco is a good QB who can make every throw. 2. Joe Flacco has room to improve, especially when it comes to his internal clock and reading blitz packages. 3. Joe Flacco (and his STATS) have been hampered by his OC.

Now...THAT is a FULL picture of an NFL QB. And one that is EARNED from having looked at EVERY NFL SNAP Joe has ever had under center. That is a credible source, and an accurate assessment. What do YOU bring to the table? Nothing even close.

What do I bring to the table??? Are you kidding me? You have got to be the worst debater on this forum. Your opinions are asinine. You just taught me last week that stats are meaningless. YOU said stats are meaningless now you are going to post stats to support your opinion? What the hell is wrong with you? Then you talk about some sort of agenda I have. Please inform us of my agenda. I'm sure you got it burned into your little mind that I am a Flacco hater simply because I say he is too inconsistent. For you, that is like me banging your girlfriend and you can't get over it. I have said many times that I am not a Flacco hater. I think he is too inconsistent from game to game and even half to half. You are blind to that though because of the girlfriend thing. Can Flacco make every throw? Yes. But not often enough. Don't worry though. When Flacco proves to be inconsistent under Caldwell, you can blame it on Caldwell having no experience at OC. BTW, Flacco will have a great game this week imo. Number one, he will want to prove it was Cam and not him. Number two, he is going against Manning and he will be motivated to prove he is as good as him.

[OriginalColtsFan]

What do I bring to the table??? Are you kidding me? You have got to be the worst debater on this forum. Your opinions are asinine. You just taught me last week that stats are meaningless. YOU said stats are meaningless now you are going to post stats to support your opinion? What the hell is wrong with you? Then you talk about some sort of agenda I have. Please inform us of my agenda. I'm sure you got it burned into your little mind that I am a Flacco hater simply because I say he is too inconsistent. For you, that is like me banging your girlfriend and you can't get over it. I have said many times that I am not a Flacco hater. I think he is too inconsistent from game to game and even half to half. You are blind to that though because of the girlfriend thing. Can Flacco make every throw? Yes. But not often enough. Don't worry though. When Flacco proves to be inconsistent under Caldwell, you can blame it on Caldwell having no experience at OC. BTW, Flacco will have a great game this week imo. Number one, he will want to prove it was Cam and not him. Number two, he is going against Manning and he will be motivated to prove he is as good as him.

Translation: "I've been owned; I've got nothing to say" Blah blah blah.

[RavingManiac]

Translation: "I've been owned; I've got nothing to say" Blah blah blah.

Are you out of your mind? You can't possibly believe you owned me. You could never own me and I think that is pretty obvious to everybody here on this forum. I don't know whether to laugh at you for thinking you own me or just feel sorry for you. I am leaning towards feeling sorry for you. In all honesty, your debating skills really suck. I'm not trying to "own" you by saying that. I'm just being totally honest with you.

[RAVEN FAN]

the Ravens never use a reverse or an end around play. since Stallworth was here. we do need some new or better plays