If things get rough, we can Flacco

[Slidemaster]

Does any quarterback?

Games are won by teams, not individual players. A quarterback is just one player. In a sense I agree with you. Spending 18 million on one player hurts the team as it has to pay a lot less for other players/positions when filling out the rosters. I do not agree with the rest of what you are saying because it is not true. You are either ignorant or trying to stir things up.

And Mark Sanchez succeeded? I missed those Super Bowls. Heck, they didn't even make the playoffs the past two seasons. Now I know you are just trying to stir things up. No rational person would make that statement with a straight face.

Sure. NE has had a bad defense for years and been excellent because Brady wins games with his arm every season. Manning had a bad running game for his entire career. Brees had a bad defense. Same with Rodgers. You pay those guys because it's worth it to do it. Flacco doesn't deserve that money.

My point with Sanchez was that his teams performed as well as Flacco's for 2 straight years despite the fact that he CLEARLY sucked. You don't need to pay an average QB 15-18 million to compete. The Ravens are better off making their lines strong and getting someone else than paying Flacco 10 million more than he's worth. The return on that money isn't the best use of it.

[Ravens2006]

I don't care what happened 3 or 4 years ago. Look at his turnover rate the last 2 years.

Okay, check the same numbers from October of last year...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...it-best/10343/

Now the numbers from right before week 13 (really, how convenient)...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...ootball/19786/

So prior to 3 weeks ago (not 3 years ago) he was generally good in that category, and trending up.

How much farther do you want to go with this? Just admit your focus / memory only goes back about one month, and that's fine. But don't keep insisting that a 3 game stretch is somehow more indicative of a player's career than nearly 5 full seasons. It's foolish.

[OriginalColtsFan]

Okay, check the same numbers from October of last year...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...it-best/10343/

Now the numbers from right before week 13 (really, how convenient)...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...ootball/19786/

So prior to 3 weeks ago (not 3 years ago) he was generally good in that category, and trending up.

How much farther do you want to go with this? Just admit your focus / memory only goes back about one month, and that's fine. But don't keep insisting that a 3 game stretch is somehow more indicative of a player's career than nearly 5 full seasons. It's foolish.

It's beyond foolish; it's downright insane.

[Slidemaster]

Okay, check the same numbers from October of last year...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...it-best/10343/

Now the numbers from right before week 13 (really, how convenient)...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...ootball/19786/

So prior to 3 weeks ago (not 3 years ago) he was generally good in that category, and trending up.

How much farther do you want to go with this? Just admit your focus / memory only goes back about one month, and that's fine. But don't keep insisting that a 3 game stretch is somehow more indicative of a player's career than nearly 5 full seasons. It's foolish.

True or false: Last year, Joe had 23 turnovers.

True or false: This year, Joe is on pace for over 20 turnovers again.

True or false: Each of those years, at least 9 of those turnovers have been fumbles.

I don't care when in the year they happen. The point is they happen. The last year Joe had a "good" (not great - that season hasn't ever existed) season was 3 years ago when his QBR and TDs reached his career peak. Since that time his yardage has stayed the same while his completion percentage, TDs, and turnovers have increased.

Again, I don't care that 3 years ago he was better than he was now. I care that we're now seeing a trend of bad ball security, without any increase in production. You want to give 18 million to a guy who's never even eclipsed 3700 yards in a season, and has 20+ turnovers 2 years in a row, despite improving offensive weapons around him?

Really?

[Captain Spaulding]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to make light of the poor guy, or kick him while he's down, but he sorta deserves this:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...,2599600.story

I thought when I saw it on TV "That is really sad." It is.

Have things ever gotten so bad for you that you just lay face down on the ground? Well then, I guess you wouldn't understand.

I actually felt very bad for him. He busted his *** trying to catch the guy. I think at this point he is trying too hard, (whether for contract or otherwise)and that will cause mistakes...

[NCBirdfan]

While the usual suspects focus on the last three games as if Joe's ENTIRE career started in week 13...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...ootball/19786/

Fascinating, 'aint it? The last three weeks, he's turned the ball over too much, and it wasn't all his OL / WRs fault. But if you can manage to remember the last 4+ years too, you'd realize Joe isn't a chronically turnover prone QB by any stretch of the imagination... and when the Ravens offense isn't turning the ball over, they're winning. Even ugly. Or you can just run with the idea that Joe of week 13 through 15 is all he's ever been and all he'll ever be.

Great work. Clearly your link should end the conversation that Joe Flacco is a turnover machine. But I'm guessing it won't.

True or false: Last year, Joe had 23 turnovers.

True or false: This year, Joe is on pace for over 20 turnovers again.

True or false: Each of those years, at least 9 of those turnovers have been fumbles.

I don't care when in the year they happen. The point is they happen. The last year Joe had a "good" (not great - that season hasn't ever existed) season was 3 years ago when his QBR and TDs reached his career peak. Since that time his yardage has stayed the same while his completion percentage, TDs, and turnovers have increased.

Again, I don't care that 3 years ago he was better than he was now. I care that we're now seeing a trend of bad ball security, without any increase in production. You want to give 18 million to a guy who's never even eclipsed 3700 yards in a season, and has 20+ turnovers 2 years in a row, despite improving offensive weapons around him?

Really?

I hate to say this Ravens2006...but I told you so. Facts be damned.

[Slidemaster]

I hate to say this Ravens2006...but I told you so. Facts be damned.

What did I post that wasn't a fact?

[bt12483]

True or false: Last year, Joe had 23 turnovers.

True or false: This year, Joe is on pace for over 20 turnovers again.

True or false: Each of those years, at least 9 of those turnovers have been fumbles.

...You want to give 18 million to a guy who's never even eclipsed 3700 yards in a season, and has 20+ turnovers 2 years in a row, despite improving offensive weapons around him?

Really?

What did I post that wasn't a fact?

Well, considering he finished the year with 19 turnovers and 3817 yards...

Looks like you have turned your Orioles rage into Flacco rage.

[Slidemaster]

Well, considering he finished the year with 19 turnovers and 3817 yards...

Looks like you have turned your Orioles rage into Flacco rage.

This is just so pathetic.

You come back after the fact, post 3 times, and each time you necro a thread that's been dead for weeks, JUST to respond to me (but not before the season is over, because you don't have the stones to show your face until you already know the outcome of the games, and not to anyone else voicing thesame opinions as me).

At this point, this is truly just a sad, sad spectacle. You can't stop posting to me (and only me), because of your weird man-love for me, and even after nearly 4 months of no interaction, I'm all you can think about when you get back, as is obvious because you clearly had to search out these posts specifically when you returned. I honestly don't know if I've ever seen anything so sad in all my life. This must be all you have.

I hope this year is better to you than last one. Unlike some people, I don't wish for anyone to...y'know, kill themselves. Buck up Sweet Pea, tomorrow is a big beautiful brand new day!

[SugarRay52]

This is just so pathetic.

You come back after the fact, post 3 times, and each time you necro a thread that's been dead for weeks, JUST to respond to me (but not before the season is over, because you don't have the stones to show your face until you already know the outcome of the games, and not to anyone else voicing thesame opinions as me).

At this point, this is truly just a sad, sad spectacle. You can't stop posting to me (and only me), because of your weird man-love for me, and even after nearly 4 months of no interaction, I'm all you can think about when you get back, as is obvious because you clearly had to search out these posts specifically when you returned. I honestly don't know if I've ever seen anything so sad in all my life. This must be all you have.

I hope this year is better to you than last one. Unlike some people, I don't wish for anyone to...y'know, kill themselves. Buck up Sweet Pea, tomorrow is a big beautiful brand new day!

I want to say that I come in peace so don't snap at me please. You were more than justified for giving up on the Orioles after 14 years of losing with an owner who is more interested in pocketing money for himself than helping the team. Slide I am seriously begging you to support Joe through these playoffs, please don't give up on him yet. There is nothing wrong with criticizing him and pointing out his obvious mistakes but don't give up on him yet. I gave up on Joe last year after the Monday night game in Jacksonville and prior to the AFC Title game, I felt bad for doing that. Joe has to raise his game in these playoffs and I'm going to support him all the way. I coming to you as a man as opposed to the ignorant jackass I was to you before so I hope you take what I'm saying to heart.

[bt12483]

This is just so pathetic.

You come back after the fact, post 3 times, and each time you necro a thread that's been dead for weeks, JUST to respond to me (but not before the season is over, because you don't have the stones to show your face until you already know the outcome of the games, and not to anyone else voicing thesame opinions as me).

At this point, this is truly just a sad, sad spectacle. You can't stop posting to me (and only me), because of your weird man-love for me, and even after nearly 4 months of no interaction, I'm all you can think about when you get back, as is obvious because you clearly had to search out these posts specifically when you returned. I honestly don't know if I've ever seen anything so sad in all my life. This must be all you have.

I hope this year is better to you than last one. Unlike some people, I don't wish for anyone to...y'know, kill themselves. Buck up Sweet Pea, tomorrow is a big beautiful brand new day!

Actually what is pathetic is YOU.

Any sign of adversity for Baltimore's sports team and you automatically start predicting doom and failure. They automatically become some horrible team, not worthy of support. It is a clear pattern with you.

You don't even give the team the chance to reverse course - a few losses and the team automatically becomes "a joke".

Last year when the Orioles hit their rough patch, you said "This team is a joke".

This year when the Ravens hit their rough patch, you said "This team is a joke". You said they weren't even average, they were BAD. And if they do make the playoffs (which they did, while also winning the AFCN North and securing a home playoff game) that they will be eliminated in round 1. What kind of a jack off says this type of stuff? And don't act like this is the first time you have over-reacted like a little byotch, you did it repeatedly last year. It apparently is in your nature to "expect the worst".

You are a fairweather, knee jerk (emphasis on JERK) reactionist cry baby, with no integrity or fortitude to stick by or stand up when the going gets tough.

LET'S THE TEAMS PLAY!! And stop crying like a punk at the first sight of struggle. I swear you are the biggest two-faced crybaby "fan" I've ever come across.

At least with the Orioles it could be understood, but you are now complaining about a team that has been one of the most successful franchises in the past 15 years in the NFL.

Your shtick is old homeboy. Grow up. We get it, you think every Baltimore sports team is "a joke".

So just watch the Rangers and Dallas, two teams that DIDN'T make the playoffs, and leave our "joke" teams to true fans who can take a few losses without turning into a melodramatic d-bag and turning on the team.

[Ravens2006]

Funny, he was "on pace" for 20 turnovers apparently... and finished with 16. That's only a 25% over-estimate.

In a league that we increasingly say is "QB driven", where you MUST have a top QB to compete, he's won more regular season games in his first four NFL seasons than any QB in NFL history. I understand that it wasn't always a 16-game schedule, but it has been for about 35 years, which is a pretty long time.

Now he's the first QB to take his team to the playoffs in each of his first 5 seasons.

Overall, the actual numbers suggest that he protects the football as well as almost any QB in the league overall during his career.

Really, you can't have it both ways. You can't say he's not a good QB in a league where we all think you HAVE to have a good QB to win, and all they've done for the most part is win with him in there. You can't say he doesn't have "it", or his numbers aren't video game level, then ignore the fact that guys like Brady and Ben weren't putting up video game level numbers when they won their Superbowls. You can't just claim he'll never get any better, then ignore the fact that virtually NONE of the QBs we now consider the best of the best were putting up video game quality numbers in their 4th and 5th seasons either. You can't call one guy a winner, and give him all the credit for GREAT plays his teammates made to help get those rings (historic acrobatic receptions, clutch FGs, etc), then just ignore the crucial mistakes Joe's teammates have made in the late moments of several post-season games and somehow pin it on Joe's inability to have "it".

Well, you can do anything you want. You're just dead wrong...

[Slidemaster]

I want to say that I come in peace so don't snap at me please. You were more than justified for giving up on the Orioles after 14 years of losing with an owner who is more interested in pocketing money for himself than helping the team. Slide I am seriously begging you to support Joe through these playoffs, please don't give up on him yet. There is nothing wrong with criticizing him and pointing out his obvious mistakes but don't give up on him yet. I gave up on Joe last year after the Monday night game in Jacksonville and prior to the AFC Title game, I felt bad for doing that. Joe has to raise his game in these playoffs and I'm going to support him all the way. I coming to you as a man as opposed to the ignorant jackass I was to you before so I hope you take what I'm saying to heart.

Hey, I hope he does well. I really do. I think that, on any given day, Joe can be great. The problem I've had with him for years is that he seems incapable of stringing 3-4 games in a row like that against good opponents, which is what you need to win a Super Bowl. My secondary concern is that if we pay him 18+ million a year, as I'm sure he's going to want, the team will not have the cap room to improve the other areas that need fixing because too much money is tied up in a QB who doesn't elevate those around him like he's being paid to do.

We'll see. I hope he succeeds, for the sake of the organization.

[NCBirdfan]

Hey, I hope he does well. I really do. I think that, on any given day, Joe can be great. The problem I've had with him for years is that he seems incapable of stringing 3-4 games in a row like that against good opponents, which is what you need to win a Super Bowl. My secondary concern is that if we pay him 18+ million a year, as I'm sure he's going to want, the team will not have the cap room to improve the other areas that need fixing because too much money is tied up in a QB who doesn't elevate those around him like he's being paid to do.

We'll see. I hope he succeeds, for the sake of the organization.

Flacco has improved in the playoffs the past two years. In the 2010 playoffs he had a 90.0 QBR and last year in the playoffs he had 96.1 rating. I don't know what you call elevated, but posting two straight years of 90+ QBR seems like he does indeed elevate his game against good opponents...and I guess we don't need to mention the Ravens were a dropped pass and a missed chip-shot field goal away from the Super Bowl last year.

I agree that 18+million is a lot of money to fork over for one player, but:

1. I don't see Flacco getting $18 million annually unless the Ravens were to get to the Super Bowl this year, with him being a major force that got them there.

2. Getting a cheaper option at quarterback would be a step backward for the franchise. This season, more so than any in recent memory, consisted of a very mediocre and soft defense - and the Ravens STILL won their division and got into the postseason. Flacco and the offense must be doing something right.

3. The Ravens' wins were no more fraudulent (I do believe that was another point you made recently) than their losses. It's not like college, where coaches can pad their records by adding inferior opponents on their schedules. In the NFL, there is a really small gap of talent between the Super Bowl winning team and all the other NFL teams. Even Kansas City has very good talent. So the Ravens are 10-6 because they earned it - plain and simple. We shall now see if they have enough in them to win it all this year, or they will have to try again next year.

You called Flacco a turnover machine; then there were many replies with links to disprove your opinion. But you came back with more nonsense (with no backing other than your opinion again). Why is it hard to admit you are wrong on the turnover machine accusation?

[Slidemaster]

Flacco has improved in the playoffs the past two years. In the 2010 playoffs he had a 90.0 QBR and last year in the playoffs he had 96.1 rating. I don't know what you call elevated, but posting two straight years of 90+ QBR seems like he does indeed elevate his game against good opponents...and I guess we don't need to mention the Ravens were a dropped pass and a missed chip-shot field goal away from the Super Bowl last year.

I agree that 18+million is a lot of money to fork over for one player, but:

1. I don't see Flacco getting $18 million annually unless the Ravens were to get to the Super Bowl this year, with him being a major force that got them there.

2. Getting a cheaper option at quarterback would be a step backward for the franchise. This season, more so than any in recent memory, consisted of a very mediocre and soft defense - and the Ravens STILL won their division and got into the postseason. Flacco and the offense must be doing something right.

3. The Ravens' wins were no more fraudulent (I do believe that was another point you made recently) than their losses. It's not like college, where coaches can pad their records by adding inferior opponents on their schedules. In the NFL, there is a really small gap of talent between the Super Bowl winning team and all the other NFL teams. Even Kansas City has very good talent. So the Ravens are 10-6 because they earned it - plain and simple. We shall now see if they have enough in them to win it all this year, or they will have to try again next year.

You called Flacco a turnover machine; then there were many replies with links to disprove your opinion. But you came back with more nonsense (with no backing other than your opinion again). Why is it hard to admit you are wrong on the turnover machine accusation?

Please, lets stop pretending like QBR is a great determining factor for how a Quarterback performs. Alex Smith has an extremely high QBR this year, and he lost his job to a guy who had never started an NFL game.

In the 2010 playoffs, Joe had a great game against KC, and a terrible one against Pittsburgh. Inconsistency. In the 2011 playoffs, Joe had a terrible game against Houston, and a great one against New England. Inconsistency. That's my big knock on him, and it has been for a long time. Unfortunately, it has continued this season.

As for the wins this season being fraudulent, you're right in the sense that every win counts the same no matter how it's earned, but several wins this year were the result of their opponents own incompetence rather than the Ravens' good play (San Diego, KC, Dallas, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland all come to mind). On the other hand, with the exception of the loss at Philadelphia, their losses all came in a pretty convincing fashion, and three were downright embarrassing (4 if you want to count the Washington game, where they collapsed in the 4th quarter and lost to a backup quarterback for the second consecutive week). You'll have to forgive me if that track record doesn't fill me with confidence.

Finally, the reason I won't admit I'm wrong about Joe's turnover problems is because I'm not wrong. I don't care what Joe's turnover record over the last 5 years has been. Look at the last 3 years, when he's been asked to do more with the offense.

2010: 10 Ints, 9 Fumbles, 3 Fumbles in the postseason.
2011: 12 Ints, 10 Fumbles, 1 Fumble in the postseason.
2012: 10 Ints, 9 Fumbles.

Are those numbers, along with 3500-3800 yards, 20-25 TDs, and a sub 60 completion percentage worth 15-18 million a year? Because that's what it'll cost to keep him here.

Look, I don't hate Joe, but the one unquestionable fact about every great player in history (and quarterback in particular) is that they made everyone around them better. If I asked you if Manning did it, you'd say yes, without question. Same for Brady. Same for Brees. Same for Rodgers. Hell, you'd probably say yes to Luck and RG3, and wouldn't think twice about it.

What about Flacco?

Can you honestly tell me, without one shred of hesitation, that Joe Flacco elevates the level of play of those around him? What if I asked you the same question about Ray Rice? Would you hesitate then? I bet I know the answer.

If you even have to pause and think about it with regards to Flacco (and if you're honest with yourself, you just did), then he's not worth the kind of money he's going to command. He's 27 and we're still waiting for him to take the next step, as we have been for the least 4 years. He's no different now than he was at 24, and virtually every statistical measure backs that up. In fact, in some respects, he's been worse.

Do you feel good about giving him 15-18 million a year for the next 5 years? Seriously, do you? I don't hate the guy, but I can look at his performance objectively, and I don't. Not by a long shot. If they can get him to extend for 10-12 a year, fine, but unless he goes crazy this postseason, or they franchise him and he has a career year next year, I think it hurts the team in the long run.

[NCBirdfan]

Please, lets stop pretending like QBR is a great determining factor for how a Quarterback performs. Alex Smith has an extremely high QBR this year, and he lost his job to a guy who had never started an NFL game.

In the 2010 playoffs, Joe had a great game against KC, and a terrible one against Pittsburgh. Inconsistency. In the 2011 playoffs, Joe had a terrible game against Houston, and a great one against New England. Inconsistency. That's my big knock on him, and it has been for a long time.

Now if you are going to lie to prove your point I guess you will just have to live with it.

As for the wins this season being fraudulent, you're right in the sense that every win counts the same no matter how it's earned, but several wins this year were the result of their opponents own incompetence rather than the Ravens' good play (San Diego, Dallas, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland all come to mind). On the other hand, with the exception of the loss at Philadelphia, their losses all came in a pretty convincing fashion, and three were downright embarrassing. You'll have to forgive me if that track record doesn't fill me with confidence.

Again, you lie to make your point (without anything to back you up). The only convincing losses were to Houston when they were pretty banged up, and to Denver, who is arguably the best team in the NFL this year. The Ravens also won some rather convincing games too. They won 44-13 against the Bengals, scored 55 points against the Raiders, and knocked out any playoff hopes the NY Giants had when they crushed them 33-14; but somehow their wins were fraudulent and they don't belong in the playoffs.

Finally, the reason I won't admit I'm wrong about Joe's turnover problems is because I'm not wrong. I don't care what Joe's turnover record over the last 5 years has been. Look at the last 3 years, when he's been asked to do more with the offense.

2010: 10 Ints, 9 Fumbles, 3 Fumbles in the postseason.
2011: 12 Ints, 10 Fumbles, 1 Fumble in the postseason.
2012: 10 Ints, 9 Fumbles.

Are those numbers, along with 3500-3800 yards, 20-25 TDs, and a sub 60 completion percentage worth 15-18 million a year? Because that's what it'll cost to keep him here.

If you compare him with his peers, his numbers are in the middle as far as turnovers are concerned. There were links presented earlier to prove this once and for all, but you ignored them. So, I won't dig them up again.

Look, I don't hate Joe, but the one unquestionable fact about every great player in history (and quarterback in particular) is that they made everyone around them better. If I asked you if Manning did it, you'd say yes, without question. Same for Brady. Same for Brees. Same for Rodgers. Hell, you'd probably say yes to Luck and RG3, and wouldn't think twice about it.

What about Flacco?

If you compare Flacco with most of those other quarterbacks in their first five years you would have similar stories. Peyton Manning has had a strong supporting offensive cast and was not always the quarterback he is now. It took him several years to become the yop-notch quarterback he is now.

Can you honestly tell me, without one shred of hesitation, that Joe Flacco elevates the level of play of those around him? What if I asked you the same question about Ray Rice? Would you hesitate then? I bet I know the answer.

I agree with Harbaugh - pay him the money.

If you even have to pause and think about it with regards to Flacco (and if you're honest with yourself, you just did), then he's not worth the kind of money he's going to command. He's 27 and we're still waiting for him to take the next step, as we have been for the least 4 years. He's no different now than he was at 24, and virtually every statistical measure backs that up. In fact, in some respects, he's been worse.

If he's not worth what he commands, he will not get the money. But he definitely will get paid well from someone.

Do you feel good about giving him 15-18 million a year for the next 5 years? Seriously, do you? I don't hate the guy, but I can look at his performance objectively, and I don't.

Very true. You aren't.

Not by a long shot. If they can get him to extend for 10-12 a year, fine, but unless he goes crazy this postseason, or they franchise him and he has a career year next year, I think it hurts the team in the long run.

The salary cap always hurts teams that have an abundance of great players. If they pay high for one player, they have to cut corners somewhere else. That was true when they paid high on the defensive side. Now it's becoming true on the other side of the ball. The problem with the inconsistency has been the offensive line. Flacco has been hit hard this season and I wouldn't be surprised if he was playing hurt for some of the season; but unlike that QB in Pittsburgh, Flacco is not a drama queen and doesn't squeal every time his pinky gets jammed. He's one tough player.

--------
I'm done. I need my morning coffee now.

[ivanbalt]

My point with Sanchez was that his teams performed as well as Flacco's for 2 straight years despite the fact that he CLEARLY sucked. You don't need to pay an average QB 15-18 million to compete. The Ravens are better off making their lines strong and getting someone else than paying Flacco 10 million more than he's worth. The return on that money isn't the best use of it.

Who is the someone else that would replace Flacco? Quality quarterbacks don't exactly grow on trees. Ask Arizona or KC.

[Peej7245]

Slidemaster, please answer this question: If you were the owner and had to decide, who would you pay the money to if not Flacco? Give us a name please!?!?

[bt12483]

Look at the last 3 years, when he's been asked to do more with the offense.

2010: 10 Ints, 9 Fumbles, 3 Fumbles in the postseason.
2011: 12 Ints, 10 Fumbles, 1 Fumble in the postseason.
2012: 10 Ints, 9 Fumbles.

Are those numbers, along with 3500-3800 yards, 20-25 TDs, and a sub 60 completion percentage worth 15-18 million a year? Because that's what it'll cost to keep him here.

2006: 23 Ints, 3 Fumbles
2007:11 Ints, 8 Fumbles
2008: 15 Ints, 10 Fumbles

Who am I? Ben Roethlisberger. Oh and in those same years I "only" passed for 3513, 3154 and 3301 yards respectively, with comp. %'s of 59.7, 65.3 and 59.9.

Why did I pick 2006-2008? Well they are years 3-5 of his career, as are years 2010-12 of Flacco's (see above).

Who had these turnover numbers?
2003: 12 Ints 9 Fumbles
2004: 14 Ints 5 Fumbles
2005: 14 Ints 4 Fumbles
2006: 12 Ints 11 Fumbles

Why that would be Mr. Tom Brady, in 4 of the first 5 years of his career.

Oh and for those keeping track Flacco so far has 13 more turnovers than lovable Matt Ryan. But a lot more playoff wins (I guess that matters....right????).

In fact, if you look at the first 5 years of almost any "top" QB, they will look very similar to Flacco's. The trend seems to be that after year 5 is when they really start to emerge (go look up Drew Brees' numbers).

But hey let's just sh1tcan a guy that is already clearly in the top half of QBs and start over (the Bills and Browns and Cardinals say hi!), and let's not hope that like other top QBs his game elevates after year 5.

Please, just shut your mouth. Go complain about the Oriole's offseason or something.

[bt12483]

As for the wins this season being fraudulent, you're right in the sense that every win counts the same no matter how it's earned, but several wins this year were the result of their opponents own incompetence rather than the Ravens' good play (San Diego, KC, Dallas, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland all come to mind). On the other hand, with the exception of the loss at Philadelphia, their losses all came in a pretty convincing fashion, and three were downright embarrassing (4 if you want to count the Washington game, where they collapsed in the 4th quarter and lost to a backup quarterback for the second consecutive week). You'll have to forgive me if that track record doesn't fill me with confidence.

So the fact that Joe was able to lead this team to another division title and double digit wins in a year when the Defense has been suspect means nothing to you?

This is the worst defense he has played with by far, and the most injury struck, yet we could have easily went 11-5 again (had we actually played a real game in week 17).

That has nothing to do with Flacco? Talk about consistency...how about 5 years of playoffs? Now both with and without a knock out Defense and Flacco at the helm. Hmmm....

With such a drop off in Defense, why didn't we finish 8-8 (or worse) like the Steeler's? Gee I wonder if Flacco had anything to do with that?

So basically Flacco gets all of the blame but none of the credit for winning in a year when the Defense fell apart.

I would argue the wins this year are MORE valuable than his prior wins, since he wasn't able to lean on the defense as much.



But hey, don't let me stop you from trashing Baltimore sports, which is really all it seems you do here. Both of our teams are "jokes".

Last year's Orioles:

Lol, this team is a living joke.

This year's Ravens:

Hahahahahahaha.

This team is a joke.

The only joke is YOU.