If things get rough, we can Flacco

[bmore_ken]

Do you feel good about giving him 15-18 million a year for the next 5 years?

Who are you replacing him with? I'm pretty sure at least 5 teams would agree with you that we need to get rid of the guy.....Because they'd all sign him in a heartbeat

[Slidemaster]

Now if you are going to lie to prove your point I guess you will just have to live with it.

Who's lying? 14/27, 176 yards, 2 tds, and heavy scrutiny from his own team that he was rattled and not playing well. At BEST it was a mediocre game, and if you actually watched it, you saw the same thing everyone else did - he was not playing well at all.

Again, you lie to make your point (without anything to back you up). The only convincing losses were to Houston when they were pretty banged up, and to Denver, who is arguably the best team in the NFL this year. The Ravens also won some rather convincing games too. They won 44-13 against the Bengals, scored 55 points against the Raiders, and knocked out any playoff hopes the NY Giants had when they crushed them 33-14; but somehow their wins were fraudulent and they don't belong in the playoffs.

They lost to a 3rd string quarterback. That's a convincing loss. Then they lost to a backup quarterback after a late game collapse. That's a convincing loss. If you don't think so, you're not paying attention. That's 4 out of 6 losses, and I don't even count the last game of the season either way because they rested all of their starters.

If you compare him with his peers, his numbers are in the middle as far as turnovers are concerned. There were links presented earlier to prove this once and for all, but you ignored them. So, I won't dig them up again.
If you compare Flacco with most of those other quarterbacks in their first five years you would have similar stories. Peyton Manning has had a strong supporting offensive cast and was not always the quarterback he is now. It took him several years to become the yop-notch quarterback he is now.

Peyton Manning: 20618 yards, 138 TD, 62 completion percentage
Joe Flacco: 17636 yards, 102 TD, 60.5 completion percentage

That's a pretty stark difference in overall numbers.

I agree with Harbaugh - pay him the money.
If he's not worth what he commands, he will not get the money. But he definitely will get paid well from someone.

You didn't answer the question. That tells me everything I need to know.

As for players only getting paid what they're worth, puh-leese. Matt Flynn is getting millions to sit on the bench. Albert Haynesworth got a massive contract to cry and be fat. Players get overpaid all the time.

The salary cap always hurts teams that have an abundance of great players. If they pay high for one player, they have to cut corners somewhere else. That was true when they paid high on the defensive side. Now it's becoming true on the other side of the ball. The problem with the inconsistency has been the offensive line. Flacco has been hit hard this season and I wouldn't be surprised if he was playing hurt for some of the season; but unlike that QB in Pittsburgh, Flacco is not a drama queen and doesn't squeal every time his pinky gets jammed. He's one tough player.

No doubt the offensive line is bad, but Joe isn't exactly mobile in the pocket either. His pocket awareness isn't exactly the best in the NFL.

[Slidemaster]

Slidemaster, please answer this question: If you were the owner and had to decide, who would you pay the money to if not Flacco? Give us a name please!?!?

I would invest that money heavily into the O-line, the front seven, and draft another QB. If it means I have to suck for a year or two to get a truly top tier QB prospect, fine. I'd rather be strong in every other facet and put a rookie in there then pay 18 million a year to a guy who's going to give me under 4000 yards and under a 60% completion percentage year in and year out. Maybe you go get Alex Smith in the offseason as an stopgap, but I'm not crazy about him. This strategy has worked for Seattle, Cincinnati, Indy, Washington, and San Francisco, and that's just teams that have implemented it in the last two seasons. There's no reason it can't work here.

[bt12483]

Peyton Manning: 20618 yards, 138 TD, 62 completion percentage
Joe Flacco: 17636 yards, 102 TD, 60.5 completion percentage

That's a pretty stark difference in overall numbers.

Is it? -2982 yards, -1.5 percent and -36 TDs (e.g. an extra ~600 yards and 7 TDs per year over Joe's pace). Manning is a #1 pick, HoF QB that played in a dome. Who had one of the top WR combos in history (a far stretch from Joe, who has played in a run first offense with a rockstar RB and where his top receiver (until recently) has always been a 30 year old slot receiver (Mason/Boldin).


How about some other "elite" QB's first 5 (full season) years?

Tom Brady: 18029 yards, 123 TD, 62 completion percentage.

Drew Brees: 16545 yards, 105 TD, 62.56 completion percentage.

Big Ben: 14974 yards, 101 TD, 62.8 completion percentage.

Eli Manning: 14623 yards, 98 TD, 55.02 completion percentage.

None of this helps to support your stance, in fact it shows Joe on pace (or better than) other top QBs in the categories you singled out above. He would fit somewhere between Brady and Brees. Good company.

He has more yards and TDs than Eli and Ben had in the first 5 years, has a higher completion percentage than Eli did, and has more yards than Brees did. Now some of them missed a few games due to injury, but so what, that is another + for Joe, he doesn't miss games (unless it is planned, as week 17 was).

It's funny that the only way you can make Joe look bad is to compare him to Peyton Manning. What a loaded comparison. Gee...Joe doesn't matchup to the #1 pick, HoF QB known as Peyton Manning. HE MUST BE A BUM!!!

Of course when you've been proven so demonstratively wrong (see turnover discussion above), I guess you have to resort to anything to save face. Pathetic.

Judging by your standards, Big Ben and Eli should have been let go, as well as Brees (in fact Brees was...a decision the Chargers franchise will forever lament).

[bt12483]

I'd rather be strong in every other facet and put a rookie in there then pay 18 million a year to a guy who's going to give me under 4000 yards and under a 60% completion percentage year in and year out. Maybe you go get Alex Smith in the offseason as an stopgap, but I'm not crazy about him. This strategy has worked for Seattle, Cincinnati, Indy, Washington, and San Francisco, and that's just teams that have implemented it in the last two seasons. There's no reason it can't work here.

This is crazy talk.

I've just shown how favorably Flacco compares statistically to other "top" QBs in their first 5 years.

And your plan would be to let him leave, and start all over with some prospect that may or may not turn out???

And your foundation is faulty anyway. Flacco has had completion percentages of 60, 63.1 and 62.6 in his career, so no, he doesn't give you "under a 60% completion percentage year in and year out." His completion percentage has dropped in the last two years because we take more low-percentage shots downfield with Torrey Smith. A knowledgeable fan of the Ravens would recognize such a thing.

And further if he had played a full game in week 17 he likely would have eclipsed 4000 yards - as if 4000 yards somehow means something. I can think of a few 4000+ yard QBs sitting home watching the playoffs. I wonder if they would have rather passed for 3800 yards and made the playoffs instead of passing for 4000 yards and watching the playoffs on TV with their family.

Do you ever get tired being wrong or looking stupid? Again, perhaps you should go back to complaining about the Orioles. I don't think football is your cup of tea.

[Slidemaster]

Is it? -2982 yards, -1.5 percent and -36 TDs (e.g. an extra ~600 yards and 7 TDs per year over Joe's pace). Manning is a #1 pick, HoF QB that played in a dome. Who had one of the top WR combos in history (a far stretch from Joe, who has played in a run first offense with a rockstar RB and where his top receiver (until recently) has always been a 30 year old slot receiver (Mason/Boldin).


How about some other "elite" QB's first 5 (full season) years?

Tom Brady: 18029 yards, 123 TD, 62 completion percentage.

Drew Brees: 16545 yards, 105 TD, 62.56 completion percentage.

Big Ben: 14974 yards, 101 TD, 62.8 completion percentage.

Eli Manning: 14623 yards, 98 TD, 55.02 completion percentage.

None of this helps to support your stance, in fact it shows Joe on pace (or better than) other top QBs in the categories you singled out above. He would fit somewhere between Brady and Brees. Good company.

He has more yards and TDs than Eli and Ben had in the first 5 years, has a higher completion percentage than Eli did, and has more yards than Brees did. Now some of them missed a few games due to injury, but so what, that is another + for Joe, he doesn't miss games (unless it is planned, as week 17 was).

It's funny that the only way you can make Joe look bad is to compare him to Peyton Manning. What a loaded comparison. Gee...Joe doesn't matchup to the #1 pick, HoF QB known as Peyton Manning. HE MUST BE A BUM!!!

Of course when you've been proven so demonstratively wrong (see turnover discussion above), I guess you have to resort to anything to save face. Pathetic.

Judging by your standards, Big Ben and Eli should have been let go, as well as Brees (in fact Brees was...a decision the Chargers franchise will forever lament).

I didn't bring up Peyton Manning. He did. Also, Brady, Ben, Eli and Brees both won superbowls early on, and showed considerable improvement as they got older. What improvement has Flacco shown? Virtually zero.

[Slidemaster]

This is crazy talk.

I've just shown how favorably Flacco compares statistically to other "top" QBs in their first 5 years.

And your plan would be to let him leave, and start all over with some prospect that may or may not turn out???

And your foundation is faulty anyway. Flacco has had completion percentages of 60, 63.1 and 62.6 in his career, so no, he doesn't give you "under a 60% completion percentage year in and year out." His completion percentage has dropped in the last two years because we take more low-percentage shots downfield with Torrey Smith. A knowledgeable fan of the Ravens would recognize such a thing.

The first 3 years of his career. He's actually regressed since then, and this is the most talented WR corps he's ever had. He's heralded for his deep ball, but he's not accurate with it. Why throw so many if you can't complete them? I don't buy for one second that Torrey Smith, as good as he is, is making Joe Flacco WORSE.

[bt12483]

I didn't bring up Peyton Manning. He did.

Ok.

It is still a biased comparison. You are using possibly the greatest of all time as a baseline? That is atypical analysis.

Also, Brady, Ben, Eli and Brees both won superbowls early on

Um...Brees did not win a SB early on.

And for that matter neither did Peyton. They both won later in their careers.

The early SB victories by Ben, Brady and Eli were largely due to their dominant defenses and a little luck. Not their individual statistical performances. Go look up their numbers in the playoff games in the years they won the SB - they aren't that impressive.

You are proving that you don't know much about this topic.

and showed considerable improvement as they got older. What improvement has Flacco shown? Virtually zero.

Joe just passed for a career high in yards. In a year where the Defense fell apart. And had his second highest TD total.

And he has now been to the playoffs in 5 consecutive seasons, the first five of his career (an NFL record I believe), and has actually WON playoff games (unlike Matt Ryan).

I guess you would prefer he pass for 4500 yards and 30 TDs and NOT be in the playoffs? Are stats or winning more important?

[Slidemaster]

[QUOTE=bt12483;8242394]Ok.

It is still a biased comparison. You are using possibly the greatest of all time as a baseline? That is atypical analysis.

Um...Brees did not win a SB early on.

Brees was a typo.

Joe just passed for a career high in yards. In a year where the Defense fell apart. And had his second highest TD total.

And he has now been to the playoffs in 5 consecutive seasons, the first five of his career (an NFL record I believe), and has actually WON playoff games (unlike Matt Ryan).

Flacco barely eclipsed his yards total, had fewer TDs, and a worse completion percentage. He's regressed, period.

As for the playoff appearances and victories, you can't have it both ways here. You stated earlier that the previous QBs I mentioned can't be credited for their teams winning the SB because they didn't play well and were lucky. Yet, Joe gets all the credit for the Ravens going to the playoffs 5 straight years? He had one of the strongest supporting casts in the league over that time. Are you really going to tell me that JOE was the one leading the way, and not Rice, and the defense? If you are, then you're not being honest with yourself.

Joe is the same guy now that he was at 24. Stars improve. He has not.

[bt12483]

The first 3 years of his career.

And?

You saw the numbers from other QBs I posted above right?

He's actually regressed since then

It is amazing how throwing for a career high in yards is a regression.

A few % points less in completions and 3 TDs off his career high. Some regression. Not too mention only really playing 15 games.

Imagine if he had played all of week 17 - he literally could have finished with 4000 yards and 25 TDs. Somehow I still doubt that would have mattered. You would just shift the goal posts.

and this is the most talented WR corps he's ever had.

Besides Torrey the WR corp is largely the same. You act like Flacco has a Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson to throw too. He never has. Other QBs are lucky to have such weapons. The offense still runs through Ray Rice primarily.

He's heralded for his deep ball, but he's not accurate with it. Why throw so many if you can't complete them? I don't buy for one second that Torrey Smith, as good as he is, is making Joe Flacco WORSE.

Flacco and the Ravens are one of the top teams in the league with plays over 20 yards.

I really couldn't care less if his completion % is 59.5 instead of 62. It is trivial.

[bt12483]

Brees was a typo.

Sure it was.

Flacco barely eclipsed his yards total

Actually he passed for 200 more yards than his career high but in one less game. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

had fewer TDs, and a worse completion percentage.

Fewer TDs than when? He had 2 more than last year. Also his completion % is 2 points higher than last year.

His career high is 63.1%. This year it was 59.7%. You name me an NFL personnel that is losing sleep over -3% completion rate.

He was 3 less TDs than hit career high of 25 TDs, and played 1 less game. Oh the horror! Don't forget about those 3 rushing TDs though.

Nevermind the fact that the Ravens set a franchise high record in points scored this year. I guess Flacco had nothing to do with that, regardless if some of those TDs aren't booked on his stat sheet.

He's regressed, period.

Yup. He regressed right back in to the playoffs for the fifth straight season.

As for the playoff appearances and victories, you can't have it both ways here. You stated earlier that the previous QBs I mentioned can't be credited for their teams winning the SB because they didn't play well and were lucky. Yet, Joe gets all the credit for the Ravens going to the playoffs 5 straight years?

Name me ANYONE that said Joe gets all the credit. He gets more credit thisi year because the Defense sucked in comparison to years past.

He had one of the strongest supporting casts in the league over that time. Are you really going to tell me that JOE was the one leading the way, and not Rice, and the defense? If you are, then you're not being honest with yourself.

Nope. I am telling you he was the starting QB during that time, won more games than he has lost, and has been to the playoffs and won in the playoffs 5 years in a row.

Joe is the same guy now that he was at 24.

So he is in the playoffs again? GREAT!

Stars improve. He has not.

Do stars make the playoffs?

Do stars win playoff games? Ask Matt Ryan or Matt Stafford.

[Slidemaster]

Right, so your argument is the same as everyone else. HE MADE THE PLAYOFFS, SO HE'S AWESOME. That's about as flawed as you can get. I showed you he has not improved, and is in fact somewhat worse this year, but facts don't seem to bother you.

Not even worth having that discussion. Though really, you're not worth any discussion in general, because you just get off on arguing with me.

[PEZ]

Looks like even Big Ben's numbers got significantly worse in year 5 too.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6770/career

[NCBirdfan]

Who's lying? 14/27, 176 yards, 2 tds, and heavy scrutiny from his own team that he was rattled and not playing well.

Do you have a link to that - where players said that?

At BEST it was a mediocre game, and if you actually watched it, you saw the same thing everyone else did - he was not playing well at all.

Houston had the #4 defense in the league and Baltimore led from the getgo. Here's what the Washington Post's Mark Mask wrote after the game: Two early touchdown passes by quarterback Joe Flacco provided all the offense the Ravens needed and they held on to beat the mistake-prone Houston Texans, 20-13, in a conference semifinal at M&T Bank Stadium.

Where do you see anyone write that Flacco played poorly? Are you sure you watched the game or are you one of those short memory types?

They lost to a 3rd string quarterback. That's a convincing loss. Then they lost to a backup quarterback after a late game collapse. That's a convincing loss. If you don't think so, you're not paying attention. That's 4 out of 6 losses, and I don't even count the last game of the season either way because they rested all of their starters.

Your definition of a "convincing lost" is wrong. Look up convincing in the dictionary. It sure doesn't say anything about backup quarterbacks. And wasn't Tom Brady a backup at one time? I guess once a backup, always a backup.

And the third-string quarterback excuse? It's reserved for Steeler trolls. I think you have to pay them for the right to use it. You might want to check in on that before you use it again.

Peyton Manning: 20618 yards, 138 TD, 62 completion percentage
Joe Flacco: 17636 yards, 102 TD, 60.5 completion percentage

That's a pretty stark difference in overall numbers.

First of all you are now comparing Flacco to one of the greatest quarterbacks to play the game. Secondly, Manning played in a much weaker division historically than Baltimore does. The AFC North has been know for over a decade as a defensive and hard-hitting division. Even Cleveland has had defenses that were better than expected throughout the years.

You didn't answer the question. That tells me everything I need to know.

I answered it. I just didn't give you the answer you wanted.

As for players only getting paid what they're worth, puh-leese. Matt Flynn is getting millions to sit on the bench. Albert Haynesworth got a massive contract to cry and be fat. Players get overpaid all the time.

How often has Ozzie Newsome overpaid for a player that wasn't worthy of it? How many times have the Ravens made mistakes when they left players walk away and sign huge deals with other teams?

No doubt the offensive line is bad, but Joe isn't exactly mobile in the pocket either. His pocket awareness isn't exactly the best in the NFL.

He most certainly is mobile in the pocket. Again, do you even watch the games? He is kinda weak in pocket awareness, but even that can be contributed to defenders often being in the backfield way too early. There are many times he doesn't have time to get set before a defender is batting the ball away on knocking him down. I like the way Jim Caldwell used more rollouts in the Giants game as Flacco showed how mobile he can be when given the chance. He is no RGIII, but he doesn't have to be. He is mobile enough to make some plays an immobile quarterback could not do.

[Slidemaster]

Looks like even Big Ben's numbers got significantly worse in year 5 too.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6770/career

His numbers have always been someone up and down. I've always felt he's extremely overrated.

[bt12483]

Right, so your argument is the same as everyone else. HE MADE THE PLAYOFFS, SO HE'S AWESOME. That's about as flawed as you can get. I showed you he has not improved, and is in fact somewhat worse this year, but facts don't seem to bother you.

Not even worth having that discussion. Though really, you're not worth any discussion in general, because you just get off on arguing with me.

Yeah I mean the Lions can't make the playoffs with Stafford and CJ, and the Cowboys can't with Romo and Dez...so...I feel pretty good about a QB that can take me to the playoffs consistently, year after year (even in a year where his team's defense falls off).

The facts are he passed for a career high in yards. It think it is hard to regress/not improve when you threw for more yards than you ever have (in one less game than you would normally play).

Oh and he had 25 total TDs (one less than his career high of 26).

He also matched a career low in INTs (10).

But hey I guess since his compl. % is 3 points lower than his career high he has "regressed" and "not improved", despite leading the Ravens to the most points they have scored in franchise history and winning another division title and playoff birth.

You have proven something though. That you don't know much about football.

[bt12483]

He most certainly is mobile in the pocket. in, do you even watch the games?

I don't think he does.

Half of his talking points sound like the national media guys who only watch highlights and see box scores.

That's what happens when you live in Texas and instead spend your time bashing Baltimore sports teams on the internet I guess.

[Slidemaster]

Do you have a link to that - where players said that?

Ed Reed said it publicly. It was all over the sports news. Don't you remember?

Your definition of a "convincing lost" is wrong. Look up convincing in the dictionary. It sure doesn't say anything about backup quarterbacks. And wasn't Tom Brady a backup at one time? I guess once a backup, always a backup.

So losing to Charlie Batch is a reasonable loss? Collapsing against Cousins is acceptable? Your definition of "convincing" loss doesn't concern me. Those were BAD losses, and we both know it. And we both know Batch isn't Tom Brady. Please - spare me.

First of all you are now comparing Flacco to one of the greatest quarterbacks to play the game. Secondly, Manning played in a much weaker division historically than Baltimore does. The AFC North has been know for over a decade as a defensive and hard-hitting division. Even Cleveland has had defenses that were better than expected throughout the years.

You brought Peyton Manning up. Not me.

I answered it. I just didn't give you the answer you wanted.

I asked you if Joe made everyone around him better in the way that other greats do. You did not give an answer to that question, and still have not.

He most certainly is mobile in the pocket. Do you even watch the games? He is kinda weak in pocket awareness, but even that can be contributed to defenders often being in the backfield way too early. There are many times he doesn't have time to get set before a defender is batting the ball away on knocking him down. I like the way Jim Caldwell used more rollouts in the Giants game as Flacco showed how mobile he can be when given the chance. He is no RGIII, but he doesn't have to be. He is mobile enough to make some plays an immobile quarterback could not do.

He occasionally can make plays with his legs, but he is terrible at avoiding pressure in the pocket. Even you must see that.

Again, has Joe improved? Can you really point to anything that has said he's better now than he was four years ago?

[Slidemaster]

Yeah I mean the Lions can't make the playoffs with Stafford and CJ, and the Cowboys can't with Romo and Dez...so...I feel pretty good about a QB that can take me to the playoffs.

The facts are he passed for a career high in yards. It think it is hard to regress/not improve when you threw for more yards than you ever have (in one less game than you would normally play).

Oh and he had 25 total TDs (one less than his career high of 26).

He also matched a career low in INTs (10).

But hey I guess since his compl. % is 3 points lower than his career high he has "regressed" and "not improved", despite leading the Ravens to the most points they have scored in franchise history and winning another division title and playoff birth.

You have proven something though. That you don't know much about football.

So what you're saying is that, at absolute best, he's about the same as he's ever been, which is decent.

Look at his statistics over the last 5 years and show me statistical proof that he's improved. A slight bump in yards and a slight reduction in completion percentage does NOT count as statistical proof.

[bt12483]

So what you're saying is that, at absolute best, he's about the same as he's ever been, which is decent.

I don't know what his absolute best is, because as has been shown, most QBs don't hit their absolute best until after year 5 of their career.

I mean seriously, this isn't that hard. Brees wasn't throwing 40 TDs in year 5. Neither was Brady. LOOK IT UP.

Look at his statistics over the last 5 years and show me statistical proof that he's improved.A slight bump in yards and a slight reduction in completion percentage does NOT count as statistical proof.

Sorry his numbers don't fit YOUR interpretation of improvement.

Eli passed for 3762 yards and 24 TDs in his second year and then only 3238 yards and 21 TDs in his fifth year. I guess he regressed too.

Brady threw for 3764 yards and 28 TDs in his 2nd full year but only 3620 and 23 TDs in his third full year. I guess he regressed too.

Brees threw 27 TDs in his 3rd full year, but 24 in his 4th full year. -3 TDs one season later. However, he threw for 3159 yards in the 3rd full year but 3576 in year 4...so +400 yards one season later. So his yards and TDs flip-flopped in consecutive seasons. Is that regression?

Sorry, some things just aren't linear improvements.

And I won't even bring up Phillip Rivers last two seasons...

I also think some of Joe's intangibles have improved regardless of if the stats show it. Unlike you, I can make such a determination since I actually watch every game IN BALTIMORE.