Hall of Fame announcement day

[weird-O]

The steroid guys I get, but how is Lee Smith not already in?

I was watching MLB and one of the veteran voters said Lee Smith doesn't have the intangibles that go with a HOF career. he isn't known as a Cub or a Cardinal, he played for so many teams that he lacks an identity. and his career mostly pre-dates what has become known as the closer role. what he meant by that, was that Smith would pitch in he 8th & 9th inning, so he wasn't known as a guy who came out to lock down the win.

isn't that funny. he has more saves than anyone not named Hoffman or Rivera, but he wasn't officially a closer for his whole career so it doesn't count.

to which I say, all he did was establish (with Eckersley) what has become known as the closer. but what do I know

[weird-O]

here are the results

Player Votes Pct
Craig Biggio 388 68.2
Jack Morris 385 67.7
Jeff Bagwell 339 59.6
Mike Piazza 329 57.8
Tim Raines 297 52.2
Lee Smith 272 47.8
Curt Schilling 221 38.8
Roger Clemens 214 37.6
Barry Bonds 206 36.2
Edgar Martinez 204 35.9
Alan Trammell 191 33.6
Larry Walker 123 21.6
Fred McGriff 118 20.7
Dale Murphy 106 18.6
Mark McGwire 96 16.9
Don Mattingly 75 13.2
Sammy Sosa 71 12.5
Rafael Palmeiro 50 8.8
Others receiving votes: Bernie Williams, 19; Kenny Lofton, 18; Sandy Alomar Jr., 16; Julio Franco, 6; David Wells, 5; Steve Finley, 4; Shawn Green, 2; Aaron Sele, 1.

[weird-O]

Palmeiro probably drops off the eligibility list next year since there are a few (presumed) 1st ballot HOFers next year.

I'd really like to hear some thoughts about Lofton. am I the only person who thinks he's a HOFer?

I didn't look at his numbers, but he was the premier leadoff hitter of his day. he was an impact player offensively and defensively. he wreaked havoc on opposing teams with his base running. but if the numbers aren't there, I guess that other stuff just isn't enough.

[mythoughts]

Extremely accurate title to that story. This about sums it up what a mess it's become

A man who hit 762 home runs wasn't elected to the Hall of Fame.

A pitcher who won seven Cy Young Awards wasn't elected to the Hall of Fame.

A man who hit 609 home runs only got 12.5 percent of the vote.

A catcher who made 12 All-Star teams missed election by 98 votes.

Oh well !
The players have no one to blame but themselves.

I, for one, will never go to an MLB game again, nor to the HOF.
The game and its history are permanently damaged.

[Aclobat]

Extremely accurate title to that story. This about sums it up what a mess it's become

A man who hit 762 home runs wasn't elected to the Hall of Fame.

A pitcher who won seven Cy Young Awards wasn't elected to the Hall of Fame.

A man who hit 609 home runs only got 12.5 percent of the vote.

A catcher who made 12 All-Star teams missed election by 98 votes.

Pretty much.

[can you hear me now!]

I get Stark's point...those things did happen...but just like a sprinter who breaks a world record with the aid of the wind, it's not a real world record...steroids are the same way...

I find this opposing view to be much more realistic as it also includes some frank comments from McGwire about his hall chances...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb...1_a8&eref=sihp


guys like Biggio, Morris and Bagwell are the ones suffering the consequences of the rampant use of steroids...

[weird-O]

I get Stark's point...those things did happen...but just like a sprinter who breaks a world record with the aid of the wind, it's not a real world record...steroids are the same way...

I find this opposing view to be much more realistic as it also includes some frank comments from McGwire about his hall chances...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb...1_a8&eref=sihp


guys like Biggio, Morris and Bagwell are the ones suffering the consequences of the rampant use of steroids...

have you seen Bagwell since he retired? what was once a grape, is now a raisin.

[Morgan208]

The steroid guys I get, but how is Lee Smith not already in?

I agree, with Sutter and gossage in , Smith should be there too.

[hector]

I'd have to look at Martinez' numbers. Raines wouldn't get my vote. Great player but hall worthy IMO

If Raines is hall worthy, why wouldn't he get your vote?

[hector]

I was watching MLB and one of the veteran voters said Lee Smith doesn't have the intangibles that go with a HOF career. he isn't known as a Cub or a Cardinal, he played for so many teams that he lacks an identity. and his career mostly pre-dates what has become known as the closer role. what he meant by that, was that Smith would pitch in he 8th & 9th inning, so he wasn't known as a guy who came out to lock down the win.

isn't that funny. he has more saves than anyone not named Hoffman or Rivera, but he wasn't officially a closer for his whole career so it doesn't count.

to which I say, all he did was establish (with Eckersley) what has become known as the closer. but what do I know

Your reasoning is sound (at least on this topic). The comment from the "veteran voter" just confirms what's been obvious to me for a long time - most so-called baseball people are idiots with the reasoning power of a cockroach (the State insect of Florida).

[hector]

that's so strange. clearly there were a couple of deserving players who have the numbers and are pretty well clear of any suspicion.

what does this do to the economy of Cooperstown. I'm sure there are businesses that rely on the barrage of people that come up for induction weekend.

Have you been to Cooperstown? It's a cesspool without the hint of an economy. I was there to speak at a couple induction ceremonies and couldn't get out of town fast enough.

[Gizmo]

Have you been to Cooperstown? It's a cesspool without the hint of an economy. I was there to speak at a couple induction ceremonies and couldn't get out of town fast enough.

Yeah, Cooperstown didn't look like much when I flew the Space Shuttle over it on a couple of my missions.

[soulflower]

Bonds and Clemens should get in eventually but I agree that they shouldnt have gotten in on the first ballot

[Gizmo]

I disagree McGwire hit 49 homers his first full season in the league

Fair enough, Ken.

McGwire did start out his first 6 seasons with 49, 32, 33, 39, 22, and 42 homers. Pretty darn good. However, his first season was in '87 and he is on record admitting to using steroids as early as '89.

He had 2 wash-out seasons in '93 and '94 because of injuries and hit only 9 HR's in each.

From '95 to the end of his career in 2001, he hit 345 of his 583 career homers, including the 4 monster years of '96 to '99 with 52, 58, 70, and 65 each. I don't think anyone would deny that these were the peak steroid years for him.

I was wrong to say flat out that he wouldn't be a HOFer without the steroids. How can we know, almost his entire career is tainted by steroid use? At least with Bonds and Clemens, imo it is pretty clear that they were HOF caliber players before using. I guess I should have said that I wouldn't vote for him because his entire career, or almost his entire career, was influenced by PED's. Going just by the numbers, I agree that he is certainly worthy.

[can you hear me now!]

have you seen Bagwell since he retired? what was once a grape, is now a raisin.

haven't seen a picture.... think the article covers Bagwell's non-use of roids....if he is no longer using a body builder workout regiment, it's a possible explanation for his weight loss.....

[soulflower]

Fair enough, Ken.

McGwire did start out his first 6 seasons with 49, 32, 33, 39, 22, and 42 homers. Pretty darn good. However, his first season was in '87 and he is on record admitting to using steroids as early as '89.

He had 2 wash-out seasons in '93 and '94 because of injuries and hit only 9 HR's in each.

From '95 to the end of his career in 2001, he hit 345 of his 583 career homers, including the 4 monster years of '96 to '99 with 52, 58, 70, and 65 each. I don't think anyone would deny that these were the peak steroid years for him.

I was wrong to say flat out that he wouldn't be a HOFer without the steroids. How can we know, almost his entire career is tainted by steroid use? At least with Bonds and Clemens, imo it is pretty clear that they were HOF caliber players before using. I guess I should have said that I wouldn't vote for him because his entire career, or almost his entire career, was influenced by PED's. Going just by the numbers, I agree that he is certainly worthy.

I don't think enough is known about the effect of steroids on player performance to say for certain how much of a hitter's homers or a pitcher's velocity is attributable to steroids.

Afterall, there are plenty of examples of mediocre players like Jason Grimsley and Jay Gibbons who were known to be juicers. There's certainly more to the success of some athletes than what substances they use.

I wouldnt vote for McGwire because he was a one dimensional player.

[johnpolitics]

Have you been to Cooperstown? It's a cesspool without the hint of an economy. I was there to speak at a couple induction ceremonies and couldn't get out of town fast enough.

You post shows a lack of knowledge about Cooperstown. Doubt you ever have been their.

FYI- Dale Murphy got screwed again by HOF voters.

[mythoughts]

Palmeiro probably drops off the eligibility list next year since there are a few (presumed) 1st ballot HOFers next year.
....

I think that's where all ths is headed too. Things are going to become very interesting in the upcoming years. And some players will be sacrificed. And while some Writers/Voter may just be making a statement they may be creating a situation of unexpected consequences.

Consider this:
These are among the players becoming eligible the next 5 years.
2014: Tom Glavine, Luis Gonzalez, Jeff Kent, Greg Maddux, Mike Mussina, Frank Thomas
2015: Carlos Delgado, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martínez, Gary Sheffield, John Smoltz
2016: Jim Edmonds, Ken Griffey, Jr., Trevor Hoffman, Billy Wagner
2017: Vladimir Guerrero, Jorge Posada, Manny Ramirez, Iván Rodríguez, Miguel Tejada, Jason Varitek, Tim Wakefield
2018: Chipper Jones, Omar Vizquel, Hideki Matsui


Now let's say Writers/Voters decide to not vote anyone in again for the next 2 years just to make a point.
Now fast-forward to 2016 and the continually-growing list includes:

1) McGwire
2) Sosa
3) Palmeiro
4) Bonds
5) Clemens
6) Biggio
7) Bagwell
8) Piazza
9) Glavine
10) Maddux
11) F Thomas
12) Smoltz
13) R Johnson
14) Griffey

If a Writer/Voter can ONLY ad a MAX of 10 players of their Ballot it's going to be hard for ANY of them get get the required 75%. You could have a situaton where all of them get 64-73% but none reach 75% because each is left off several ballots due to differing ideologies.

So what chance do the following players have in the future to get 75% (when these other 14 players are already creating a log jam)?:
1) Mike Mussina
2) Curt Schilling
3) Perdo Martinez
4) Lee Smith
5) Trevor Hoffman
6) Tim Raines
7) Edgar Martinez
8) Jack Morris
9) Jeff Kent
10) Carlos Delgado
11) Gary Sheffield
12) Billy Wagner

The only thing that is certain is that these 12 players will be taking up some of the 75% (or maybe even the 5%) of the spots needed to be elected. But many of these 12 will have very low votes counts because the 14 players listed above will be taking many of the votes.
That's 26 names listed above and a MAX of 10 can be placed on any one ballot. It's going to be a momunental task to reach 75%.

And in following years, more players will create an even bigger logjam, making it even harder.....for everyone.
You see it was just a lot easier to get 75% when you're one of 4 or 5 great players out of a pool of 25 other mediorce players to get one of those 10 spots on a ballot, than it is if your're one of 25-30 great players along with 25 other mediocre players fighting for one of those same 10 slots.

You think there's controversy now ???????

[bmore_ken]

If Raines is hall worthy, why wouldn't he get your vote?

I meant not hall worthy. Sometimes I type too fast

[mythoughts]

I get Stark's point...those things did happen...but just like a sprinter who breaks a world record with the aid of the wind, it's not a real world record...steroids are the same way...



I find this opposing view to be much more realistic as it also includes some frank comments from McGwire about his hall chances...



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb...1_a8&eref=sihp





guys like Biggio, Morris and Bagwell are the ones suffering the consequences of the rampant use of steroids...

Yeah, but they are part of the era that worked so hard to protect the steroid user from getting caught too !