Hall of Fame announcement day

[hector]

there is a good case to be made that the same people who vote bear some of the responsibility for the problem......a writer will argue that any negative articles they write or present through other media outlets will cost them access and cause "relationship" problems with their subjects....

the really sad part about the entire issue is why guys like bonds and clemens even needed to consider cheating....they were HOF caliber long before they cheated....they torpedoed their own boats through nothing more than selfishness and insecurity...

Permit me to enlighten you a bit - the super talented players like Bonds and Clemens who did well before steroids went into steroids to extend their careers and earn far more money. The economic factor was the main driver. It almost always is. Some of us are fortunate that we can earn great wealth through the strength of our intellect and don't need steroids to be superstars in our profession.

[LarryN]

So was Ken Singleton for the O's in the 70's and 80's but that doesn't make either of them HOF vote worthy

Are you really comparing the 79/83 Orioles to the 95-06 Yankees. One team went to two World Series, the other went to six.

And I never said that Bernie was HoF-worthy. In fact, I specifically said he was not, but that I could understand why the 19 guys that voted for him (and the 55 last year) did. I'm surprised Singleton didn't even get a single vote in his first year. Opinions differ. Heck, I don't think Mattingly is worthy, but he's been on the ballot for 13 years. He had a border-line career, so I don't begrudge him the votes he got.

[hector]

Are you really comparing the 79/83 Orioles to the 95-06 Yankees. One team went to two World Series, the other went to six.

And I never said that Bernie was HoF-worthy. In fact, I specifically said he was not, but that I could understand why the 19 guys that voted for him (and the 55 last year) did. I'm surprised Singleton didn't even get a single vote in his first year. Opinions differ. Heck, I don't think Mattingly is worthy, but he's been on the ballot for 13 years. He had a border-line career, so I don't begrudge him the votes he got.

Larry,

Mattingly is HOF worthy as is Pete Rose.

Heck

[LarryN]

Larry,

Mattingly is HOF worthy as is Pete Rose.

Heck

I won't argue with you on Rose.

One batting title, one RBI title and one MVP (all on one three year period) does not make one a Hall of Famer. Mattingly had a great 1984-86, but just a very good rest of his career.

[weird-O]

Are you really comparing the 79/83 Orioles to the 95-06 Yankees. One team went to two World Series, the other went to six.

And I never said that Bernie was HoF-worthy. In fact, I specifically said he was not, but that I could understand why the 19 guys that voted for him (and the 55 last year) did. I'm surprised Singleton didn't even get a single vote in his first year. Opinions differ. Heck, I don't think Mattingly is worthy, but he's been on the ballot for 13 years. He had a border-line career, so I don't begrudge him the votes he got.

playing for a high profile, big market team always bumps the % or votes a player gets. the opposite is true for very good players who spend their careers in places like KC. If Mattingly played his whole career with the Padres or Brewers, he wouldn't get nearly as many votes as he does.

watch David Ortiz when he's eligible. I bet he gets the highest % of votes any career DH has received. is he better than Baines or Edgar? maybe, but not by much. I am convinced he'll get a much better reception than those two, because he played for Boston all these years.

[LarryN]

playing for a high profile, big market team always bumps the % or votes a player gets. the opposite is true for very good players who spend their careers in places like KC. If Mattingly played his whole career with the Padres or Brewers, he wouldn't get nearly as many votes as he does.

watch David Ortiz when he's eligible. I bet he gets the highest % of votes any career DH has received. is he better than Baines or Edgar? maybe, but not by much. I am convinced he'll get a much better reception than those two, because he played for Boston all these years.

Ortiz was on the 'List of 104'. That could really hurt him.

[weird-O]

Ortiz was on the 'List of 104'. That could really hurt him.

I think you're right

[can you hear me now!]

Some ... are fortunate ... can earn great wealth through the strength of ... intellect and don't need steroids to be superstars...

and others like yourself are obviously selling your thoughts as fertilizer to get through life....

bonds, clemens and others made enough money for multiple lifetimes....some even managed to make multiple lifetimes worth of money without cheating...who knew? it wasn't greed, it was vanity and a deep sense of insecurity....

on a side note, I didn't think it humanly possible for anyone to be more of an overblown pompous rear end than our resident radio hack/identity thief, but you sir, have supplanted him as the most annoying person on this board...well done, very well done....

[bmore_ken]

on a side note, I didn't think it humanly possible for anyone to be more of an overblown pompous rear end than our resident radio hack/identity thief, but you sir, have supplanted him as the most annoying person on this board...well done, very well done....

Well done sir. I'm in total agreement

[hector]

and others like yourself are obviously selling your thoughts as fertilizer to get through life....

bonds, clemens and others made enough money for multiple lifetimes....some even managed to make multiple lifetimes worth of money without cheating...who knew? it wasn't greed, it was vanity and a deep sense of insecurity....

on a side note, I didn't think it humanly possible for anyone to be more of an overblown pompous rear end than our resident radio hack/identity thief, but you sir, have supplanted him as the most annoying person on this board...well done, very well done....

Please calm yourself and try to control your envy. Your childish personal insults demean yourself and your family would be ashamed. Just because you were part of the horribly inaccurate 64-65 win prediction group from 2012 should not be cause for you to release the devil in you. As you obviously know, my prediction was almost exactly correct and I expect more of the same in 2013.

Let me help you - the O's go 84-78 in 2013 and miss the playoffs. Have a great day.

[hector]

Well done sir. I'm in total agreement

One member of the 65 win club supports another member of the same club. Misery loves company and you both have a history of total agreement with each other.

[can you hear me now!]

Please calm yourself and try to control your envy. Your childish personal insults demean yourself and your family would be ashamed. Just because you were part of the horribly inaccurate 64-65 win prediction group from 2012 should not be cause for you to release the devil in you. As you obviously know, my prediction was almost exactly correct and I expect more of the same in 2013.

Let me help you - the O's go 84-78 in 2013 and miss the playoffs. Have a great day.

that prediction horse is long dead and made in to glue....big deal, you managed get something right once, which still leaves you 1 time behind the proverbial broken clock on a daily basis...you admire that one signle right prediction as much as my grandson admired his first poop...he at least remembered to flush.....when you can make it past being right twice in the same calendar month I might take you seriously (nah, I won't)....and for the record, Ken and I disagree more than we agree....

as for childish insults...I guess when you are as ancient as you claim to be, anyone under 80 is considered a child in your eyes....

Vlad's looking for you...something about needing a ball wash....didn't know he golfed....

[bmore_ken]

One member of the 65 win club supports another member of the same club. Misery loves company and you both have a history of total agreement with each other.

CYHMN and I with a history of total agreement? For someone who claims to be so intelligent, that statement doesn't support your claim.

[hector]

CYHMN and I with a history of total agreement? For someone who claims to be so intelligent, that statement doesn't support your claim.

Let's see - one of you predicted 65 wins and the other predicted 65 wins. That looks like total agreement to me.

Anyway, here's a gift for both of you - the O's go 84-78 in 2013 and miss the playoffs. Do you both agree?

[soulflower]

my take on players like Gibbons is that they didn't have the natural talent to be MLB caliber players, but the juice pushed them up enough to stick around.

No matter what substances they take, there's always the human element.

There isn't a single drug that can make me pitch as well as Roger Clemens or hit as well as Barry Bonds. I don't have the physical or mental ability to do what they did.

I'm sure the same rules apply, albeit to a lesser extent, among the peers of Clemens and Bonds...

[ivanbalt]

No matter what substances they take, there's always the human element.

There isn't a single drug that can make me pitch as well as Roger Clemens or hit as well as Barry Bonds. I don't have the physical or mental ability to do what they did.

I'm sure the same rules apply, albeit to a lesser extent, among the peers of Clemens and Bonds...

I agree.

Regardless of steroid, Bonds had amazing plate discipline. The roids may have given him more power, but he hit so many home runs because he always waited for the perfect pitch.

[weird-O]

No matter what substances they take, there's always the human element.

There isn't a single drug that can make me pitch as well as Roger Clemens or hit as well as Barry Bonds. I don't have the physical or mental ability to do what they did.

I'm sure the same rules apply, albeit to a lesser extent, among the peers of Clemens and Bonds...

this is a popular justification.

I think everyone agrees that Bonds and Clemens would have had HOF careers, even if PEDs didn't exist in the world. that can't be said for any other player. not even Sosa.

as for the rest, there were better ball players who lost their job to players who bulked up thru chemicals. it's hard to make a work-a-day analogy to that. but I'm confident you wouldn't feel the same way if you lost your job and career to someone else because they were willing to use illegal practices to outproduce you.

some people believe it's an issue of morality, and others don't believe morality has a place in baseball or the decision making process.

[weird-O]

I agree.

The roids may have given him [Bonds] more power...

may have?

so you think the jury is still out on the effects of PEDs?

[soulflower]

this is a popular justification.

I think everyone agrees that Bonds and Clemens would have had HOF careers, even if PEDs didn't exist in the world. that can't be said for any other player. not even Sosa.

as for the rest, there were better ball players who lost their job to players who bulked up thru chemicals. it's hard to make a work-a-day analogy to that. but I'm confident you wouldn't feel the same way if you lost your job and career to someone else because they were willing to use illegal practices to outproduce you.

I disagree. An elite player is an elite player. Steroids don't teach you plate discipline. You can't compare Manny Ramirez to a guy struggling to learn plate discipline in the minor leagues.

Steroids isn't going to turn a guy like Jay Gibbons into a hall of famer. One could even argue that taking PEDs is worth the risk for players who are borderline major leaguers and have no realistic chance of becoming Hall of Famers.

As far as elite players go, a guy like Ken Griffey, who no one suspects of juicing, made a ton of money and had a great career despite not doing what Bonds did. The only real consequence was that his career was shortened by injuries(which seemed likely to happen to Bonds before he went to BALCO).

I'll be shocked if Griffey or Jeter don't get voted in on the first ballot.

[weird-O]

I disagree. An elite player is an elite player. Steroids don't teach you plate discipline. You can't compare Manny Ramirez to a guy struggling to learn plate discipline in the minor leagues.

Steroids isn't going to turn a guy like Jay Gibbons into a hall of famer. One could even argue that taking PEDs is worth the risk for players who are borderline major leaguers and have no realistic chance of becoming Hall of Famers.

As far as elite players go, a guy like Ken Griffey, who no one suspects of juicing, made a ton of money and had a great career despite not doing what Bonds did. The only real consequence was that his career was shortened by injuries(which seemed likely to happen to Bonds before he went to BALCO).

I'll be shocked if Griffey or Jeter don't get voted in on the first ballot.

from what you're saying here, I think we're in agreement.

but to clarify, I'm specifically talking about the guys who were only able to have a MLB career because they were using PEDs. I have every confidence that these borderline guys were given roster spots over guys who were naturally better ball players, but they didn't win out because they didn't cheat, and a lesser players did.

there's no combination of PEDs that could have made Gibbons a HOF caliber player. if there were, he would have taken them. and he too would have been snubbed when he got on his first ballot. without PEDs, Gibbons would have had a cup of coffee in baseball, and then went on to a different life, thus clearing some room for a better, more deserving player.

there's very little to feel sorry about for a guy like Griffey. he may be the best player I've ever seen play the game. he was a 5 tool player. but if there is something to be sad about, it's that he will be overshadowed by all the stink of lesser players like Sosa, McGwire and Bonds.

but I doubt he's shedding any tears about that.