Quote of the day.

[SemiAuto]

Heck, medieval serfs were virtually slaves, yet they only had to give at most one-third of their output to the Lord of the Manor.

source

[soulflower]

source

Slaves had to give 100% of their output(and possibly their children's output) to their master.

Serfs sound more like sharecroppers than Slaves.

[SemiAuto]

Slaves had to give 100% of their output(and possibly their children's output) to their master.

Serfs sound more like sharecroppers than Slaves.

Of course neither is desirable. It is notable that the so called fair share compares to serfdom.

[soulflower]

Of course neither is desirable. It is notable that the so called fair share compares to serfdom.

Serfdom maybe. Definitely not slavery as your linked quote implied...

[ms maggie]

source

No, it was more like half.

Definition of Serfs
Medieval Serfs were peasants who worked his lord's land and paid him certain dues in return for the use of land, the possession (not the ownership) of which was heritable. The dues were usually in the form of labor on the lord's land. Medieval Serfs were expected to work for approximately 3 days each week on the lord's land. A serf was one bound to work on a certain estate, and thus attached to the soil, and sold with it into the service of whoever purchases the land.

Sorry!

http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/serfs.htm

[banner1124]

Difference is that serfs got absolutely nothing in return for what they gave up. Not saying that someone having to pay 50% plus in taxes is right, just that it in absolutely no way whatsoever compares to serfdom

[SemiAuto]

Serfdom maybe. Definitely not slavery as your linked quote implied...

That still doesn't make it okay.

[soulflower]

That still doesn't make it okay.

I never said Serfdom was ok

[SemiAuto]

I never said Serfdom was ok

I didn't claim that you did. Neither serfdom nor slavery is desirable so the point still stands. The level of taxation here is wrong.

[bullmikey]

The conditions of slavery varied from place to place, from time to time, in the world. In some societies slave were permitted to own property and were often encouraged to earn a little on the side so that they might one day purchase their freedom (a common practice in the ancient world). Serfs were a part of the landscape, like pastures, fields, barns, streams, and roads. They were sold with the land, along with the cattle, sheep, pigs, and other kinds of livestock. Slaves could be sold apart from the land but serfs were always attached to a plot of ground. Both estates were rather miserable. To argue which was worse is silly.

[soulflower]

I didn't claim that you did. Neither serfdom nor slavery is desirable so the point still stands. The level of taxation here is wrong.

Taxation is nothing like Serfdom

[SemiAuto]

Taxation is nothing like Serfdom

At a high enough level it is close enough. Your main purpose behind your labor is to support the state. A very anti-liberal position to find yourself in.

[soulflower]

At a high enough level it is close enough. Your main purpose behind your labor is to support the state. A very anti-liberal position to find yourself in.

My main purpose behind my labor is to support my family and lifestyle. I could stop working anytime if I didn't care for a nice car, house, or other material things...

[SemiAuto]

My main purpose behind my labor is to support my family and lifestyle. I could stop working anytime if I didn't care for a nice car, house, or other material things...

Apologies, I meant 'your' in the metaphorical sense. Not you specifically but someone who might find themselves in such a position.

The point being is that government works for us, not the other way around. With an excessively high tax rate government turns the tables as the majority of this person's labor goes not to themself, but to government.

How much of a citizen's labor belongs to the government before it becomes unethical?

[soulflower]

The point being is that government works for us, not the other way around. With an excessively high tax rate government turns the tables as the majority of this person's labor goes not to themself, but to government.

The problem is, you and I probably don't agree on what "excessively high" means in regards to taxes.

What in your opinion is an acceptable rate of taxation?

How much of a citizen's labor belongs to the government before it becomes unethical?

That depends on many different factors. I couldn't give an exact number or percentage.

I don't mind paying taxes as long as I'm getting adequate services in return from the the government(ie national security, public safety, public schools, public health department, etc).

[Calamari]

If you feel like you are getting a bad deal here there are other countries out there that should suit your price.

[SemiAuto]

The problem is, you and I probably don't agree on what "excessively high" means in regards to taxes.

What in your opinion is an acceptable rate of taxation?

Zero. Taxation is robbery.

When the total tax rate is around 50% then that is in the range of serfdom as you primarily work for the state. This is wrong.

That depends on many different factors. I couldn't give an exact number or percentage.

I don't mind paying taxes as long as I'm getting adequate services in return from the the government(ie national security, public safety, public schools, public health department, etc).

Does that include what is going on now?

I'll agree to some extent with this. For example, I think gasoline taxes are a fair fee for road usage. That said, when the highway trust fund is raided for other things and then politicians say that the gas tax needs to be raised to fund roads I'll call bullshxt.

When the government is running trillion dollar deficits I think it is only sane to question what they are up to and why it is going so badly.

[Grindelwald]

Zero. Taxation is robbery.

Luckily, those of us with brains know better.

Without taxes, you would not have a job, because schools are funded through taxes.

[soulflower]

For example, I think gasoline taxes are a fair fee for road usage. That said, when the highway trust fund is raided for other things and then politicians say that the gas tax needs to be raised to fund roads I'll call bullshxt.

So basically, you're Ok with sales taxes but not income taxes correct?

When the government is running trillion dollar deficits I think it is only sane to question what they are up to and why it is going so badly.

We should always question how the government spends our money. The fact that the government sometimes is lousy at managing our money doesn't mean that taxation itself is morally wrong.

[SemiAuto]

So basically, you're Ok with sales taxes but not income taxes correct?

I'm more inclined to fees for use. I don't like being told I need things that I don't actually want in order to line some special interest's pockets.

We should always question how the government spends our money. The fact that the government sometimes is lousy at managing our money doesn't mean that taxation itself is morally wrong.

It is morally wrong. I've heard taxes described as a 'necessary evil'. I'll question the necessary part. In the end, government is taking something that does not belong to it. The government does not own me or any part of my time or labors. That is why the liberal idea is based on limited government. It is immoral to take things that are not yours and that is exactly what taxation does.