Successful Californians flee state after tax hike.....can Maryland be next?

[pmore108]

You nailed it, "at one time".

I think the port of Baltimore currently ranks 17th in the world in term of tonage.

As far as the health care industry - yes, definitiley heavily supported by Federal $$.

"According to the World Health Organization (WHO), the United States spent more on health care per capita ($7,146), and more on health care as percentage of its GDP (15.2%), than any other nation in 2008. The United States had the fourth highest level of government health care spending per capita ($3,426), behind three countries with higher levels of GDP per capita: Monaco, Luxembourg, and Norway. A 2001 study in five states found that medical debt contributed to 46.2% of all personal bankruptcies and in 2007, 62.1% of filers for bankruptcies claimed high medical expenses."

Yea, that's why I qualified that statement. I don't think that the federal money spent on healthcare is going to go down anytime in the near future like some other federal dollars could that would affect MD (defense, NASA, etc). I also don't believe that federal money drives the healthcare industry like say defense dollars drive contractors surrounding APG. People are going to be in car wrecks, going to hurt themselves, get sick, get cancer, etc. and Baltimore is positioned well when it comes to being a leader in the industry with Hopkins being here and Shock Trauma being one of the leaders in traumatic care. Additionally, the population is growing older and the need for nurses, doctors, techs, equipment, etc is going to keep going up.

[slapshot]

Yea, that's why I qualified that statement. I don't think that the federal money spent on healthcare is going to go down anytime in the near future like some other federal dollars could that would affect MD (defense, NASA, etc). I also don't believe that federal money drives the healthcare industry like say defense dollars drive contractors surrounding APG. People are going to be in car wrecks, going to hurt themselves, get sick, get cancer, etc. and Baltimore is positioned well when it comes to being a leader in the industry with Hopkins being here and Shock Trauma being one of the leaders in traumatic care. Additionally, the population is growing older and the need for nurses, doctors, techs, equipment, etc is going to keep going up.

Here's an interesting site that shows total employment figures by industry, state and by year....

http://www.careerinfonet.org/Industr...rom=Employment

If you look at states with comparable populations to Maryland (~5,800,000), the % employed in the Healthcare sector (for Md) is not too different from other states of similar size (ie, Missouri, Wisc. Minnesota):

Minnesota - 419K employed in healthcare industry in 2010
Missouri - 399K employed in healthcare industry in 2010
Wisc - 380K employed in healthcare industryu in 2010
Maryland - 337K employed in healthcare industry in 2010.


But if you look at the employement numbers for technical, professional or consulting services, Md numbers are significanty higher (with respect to these other states), in large part, because of federally supported programs in DoD, aerospace, etc.

Maryland - 231K in professional, scientific, services
Missouri - 123K
Minnesota - 123K
Wisc - 93K



While we are fortunate to have a number of top health care facilities in Md, the numbers employed, in that sector, are not significantly different than what you find in other states. But that is not true in sectors that heavily rely on Federal dollars, such as the defense, aerospace and bio industries.

Again, my point is - Maryland's economy is, in large measure, propt up by Federal dollars. I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just saying that's what it is....Normalize the $$ going to pay Federal emplyee slaries, of contractor salaries, and you have an employment situatioin, you have family income, a wealth situation that is not too dissimilar from most states in the Union. Our economy in Maryland is artifically inflated by federal $$. It just is.

Soooooo, when people say "we are the richest state", have the "highest family incomes", etc...I say that's great, but you can thank Uncle Sam for that. Because MANY of these high wage earners produce nothing more than paper.

[AtticusII]

As the tax base dwindles due to corporations, small businesses and taxpayers fleeing this state due to the ever-increasing tax burden...

Great story. All these people leaving the state because of the ever-increasing tax burden...

It just doesn't explain why net migration from Maryland has moved in the opposite direction recently. In fact, in 2010 (last year they have data), more people moved into Maryland than moved out.

Cue Bloomin' Onion: "millionaires are moving out, illegal immigrants are moving in." (neither of which is true, but why ruin a good story?)

[slapshot]

Great story. All these people leaving the state because of the ever-increasing tax burden...

It just doesn't explain why net migration from Maryland has moved in the opposite direction recently. In fact, in 2010 (last year they have data), more people moved into Maryland than moved out.

Cue Bloomin' Onion: "millionaires are moving out, illegal immigrants are moving in." (neither of which is true, but why ruin a good story?)

I think, for many, it's all about job growth/loss.

If there are jobs to be found....people will move there. Md's unemployment rate is 6.9%. Many states still hover between 8%-9%.

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...s-in-last.html

"Maryland adds 28,200 jobs in last year; ranks 23rd in U.S for growth."

[AtticusII]

I absolutely agree. The strength of Maryland's economy, relative to other states, explains virtually all of the movement on that chart.

I would only add that the housing bubble (2003-2007) was a contributing factor to people moving out of the state during that time, as people were either priced out of the housing market in MD or, as homeowners, were looking to cash in on their gains and move to states (e.g., Pennsylvania) with lower housing prices. When the bubble burst, the "exodus" to PA came to a halt.

It is these things -- jobs, housing -- not small and/or non-existent differences in state tax burdens, that affect where people move.

But the tax story sounds so juicy....

[happygolucky1]

Atticus ... You know that each county in MD charges a income tax up to 3.2% right? And if you make over 100,000 single or 150,000 couple you pay and 5.00% up to 5.75%. So the highest income level could pay 8.95% income taxes. Most people will fall into the 4.75% range plus an average of 3.0% county income tax which equals 7.75% income tax for Maryland. A side note... that's how Maryland looks more tax friendly, because most, if not all the others states do not have an additional county income tax.

[AtticusII]

Yes, and I would agree with the larger point that you need to look at the combined state & local tax burden (per capita state and local taxes/per capita income) to make a true comparison.

That's why, when this topic has come up in the past, I've posted those numbers from the Tax Foundation. In 2010, Maryland's state-local tax burden was 10.2%, just slightly about the national average of 9.9%.

This time, though, I was responding to Bloomin Onion's false claims that income, sales, alcohol tax rates, etc. in South Carolina are MUCH lower than in Maryland.

[ybnormal]

I absolutely agree. The strength of Maryland's economy, relative to other states, explains virtually all of the movement on that chart.

I would only add that the housing bubble (2003-2007) was a contributing factor to people moving out of the state during that time, as people were either priced out of the housing market in MD or, as homeowners, were looking to cash in on their gains and move to states (e.g., Pennsylvania) with lower housing prices. When the bubble burst, the "exodus" to PA came to a halt.

It is these things -- jobs, housing -- not small and/or non-existent differences in state tax burdens, that affect where people move.

But the tax story sounds so juicy....

Take away the 350,000+ federal government and government contracting workers and you get a far different picture of Maryland's economy.

[ybnormal]

Atticus ... You know that each county in MD charges a income tax up to 3.2% right? And if you make over 100,000 single or 150,000 couple you pay and 5.00% up to 5.75%. So the highest income level could pay 8.95% income taxes. Most people will fall into the 4.75% range plus an average of 3.0% county income tax which equals 7.75% income tax for Maryland. A side note... that's how Maryland looks more tax friendly, because most, if not all the others states do not have an additional county income tax.

And let's not forget the ever popular 50% piggyback tax we taxpayers get hit with every year.

[AtticusII]

Those aren't two different things. The "piggyback tax" is the tax that goes to the counties.

It isn't necessarily 50% - depends on where you live and how much you make.

And sure, you get a different picture if you take away federal, and related, jobs, from Maryland.

So what?

Those wealthy Californians (in the OP) who claim to be moving to Nevada would face a different picture if the gaming industry left that state. Gaming is the only reason that state doesn't have income tax.

[bmore_ken]

Those aren't two different things. The "piggyback tax" is the tax that goes to the counties.

It isn't necessarily 50% - depends on where you live and how much you make.

And sure, you get a different picture if you take away federal, and related, jobs, from Maryland.

So what?

Those wealthy Californians (in the OP) who claim to be moving to Nevada would face a different picture if the gaming industry left that state. Gaming is the only reason that state doesn't have income tax.

Exactly and you can make the same statement for any other state that depends on a particular industry. When did Detroit fall into disaray and why?

[Informed Thinker]

http://www.howmoneywalks.com/

The above is a link to the homepage and book that the OP article/Fox article is based on. The author was on CNBC yesterday and I heard what was a good discussion. Some of this thread is more on point than other posts. The author was clear about drawing broad conclusions as yes wealth has left California and NY but what his data didn't capture was the wealth being created to replace it. Silicon valley was a perfect example. Wealth is moving to Florida in part because of taxes but also because of the warm climate that makes it a retirement destination. Yes wealth has left Maryland but probably been replaced by new wealth which brings us to the challenge facing Maryland. That being retired folks with pensions, SS and investments. Yes, when we retire we are replaced in the work place but if we leave with our pensions and resources that is drain and current government outflows are going to retirees elsewhere. The ideal situation for any state is to have those who have created and earned wealth to remaing there when they retire and keep their wealth in that state. Even with their wealth creation replaced it is better to have each person there. Especially the retired ones who are more in the personal consumption stage and in there early retirement years need minimal government services. Another example is the retired person who has a home with 400k in equity. If I sell it and move south I am taking that money with me. I am replaced by someone who buys that home and now has six figure debt plus. Long term Maryland has some serious issues ahead of it. Especially with Virginia across the Potomac and going red and lowering taxes and some states seriously considering doing away with the state income tax.

[happygolucky1]

That's why, when this topic has come up in the past, I've posted those numbers from the Tax Foundation. In 2010, Maryland's state-local tax burden was 10.2%, just slightly about the national average of 9.9%.............................................. .................................................. ...... According to Baltimore Business Journal article...Maryland ranks 12th worst among the 50 states when it comes to state and local income taxes, according to a new report by a non-partisan tax research group.

That's for 2010, by 2014 is will be much worse

.Virginia, Delaware and Pennsylvania tax burden is less than Maryland. And, Delaware and Pennsylvania do not tax retirement income.

[rudy_d]

As the tax base dwindles due to corporations, small businesses and taxpayers fleeing this state due to the ever-increasing tax burden, taxes will continue to climb in order to fuel the bleeding-heart gravy train supplying those sucking the state's resources dry. Question is, who'll pay for all the "freebie" programs once the train comes to a halt? Certainly not the freeloaders.

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Except taxpayers aren't fleeing the state. MD's population has continued to grow faster than the rest of the country.

[Informed Thinker]

Except taxpayers aren't fleeing the state. MD's population has continued to grow faster than the rest of the country.

How much of that growth is makers v takers? That makes a big difference when you weigh government revenues v expenditures. Sure when a GS 17 retires he is replaced and his income is still there providing the new person doesn't move or live in Virginia. But most importantly is the now retired person with their pension and investment income staying here or are they heading south? If the household with income of 500K and 1.5 kids moves away and is replaced by a mother on public assistance with five kids is that really the point you want to make? Far more under the surface than simple stats. Perhaps the most salient point is the ever increasing need in Maryland to raise taxes to pay the bills while Virginia doesn't seem to have that problem. Go south retirees with your pensions, ss and investments. There are states who already have no income tax and even more considering it. Wait we need someone behind to keep up the pension contributions.

[Creekman]

There is a lot of chatter about So.Carolinas "low" taxes most of which has been blown out of the water.

However, they do have the lowest gas tax in the nation. Have you ever driven on their roads? Their portion of I-95 is the worst on the east coast. It is like a cow path. And don't get off the interstate, its all down hill from there.

[Informed Thinker]

There is a lot of chatter about So.Carolinas "low" taxes most of which has been blown out of the water.

However, they do have the lowest gas tax in the nation. Have you ever driven on their roads? Their portion of I-95 is the worst on the east coast. It is like a cow path. And don't get off the interstate, its all down hill from there.

And for many the trade offs are worth it. Thats the point. States can seek their own path and if Marylanders want and are willing to pay they will be happy. If folks if South Carolina prefer lower taxes and less convience they will be happy. One of the things the author of the book this thread is based on talks about is that many don't leave California for Texas because they are comfortable with the level of services and life they have. Hard to up root your kids who are in a quality school system. Harder to move from Howard County than Baltimore City.

[Bartman]

Top Tax Friendly states for Retirees from Marketwatch

https://www.usaa.idmanagedsolutions....s/story?id=186

And the Ten Worst

http://www.topretirements.com/blog/g...p-losers.html/

[bmorepunk]

There aren't a lot of retirees in the best state tax-wise (Alaska). Problem is, when you get to be retirement age things like the potential for falling down on ice for months out of the year and conditions that are exacerbated by the cold start to get to you. And even if you live in Anchorage you might not have the kind of medical care you might need in the lower 48.

But you don't need a permit to conceal carry. So I don't know why a bunch of the posters here aren't already there.