Rights, God and America

[soulflower]

No. We kill them for food and enslave their labor and keep them as pets. None of this would be acceptable treatment for a human being.

We have a Right to kill animals? Animals don't have a Natural Right to life?

[SemiAuto]

Soooo... the rights theoretically exist, but can only be exercised under the protection of an enlightened government.

Most anthropologists say that modern humans developed about 200,000 years ago. Is it fair to say that "natural rights" began then too? If so, the existence of such rights was utterly worthless for about 199,700 years... and after that, were available to only the small minority of humanity who happened to live under enlightened governments.

Correct. You'll want a government that respects and protects these rights. That doesn't mean they come from government.

For example: you may read in the news that some dictatorship has rounded up some dissidents and shot them. You know this is wrong. Why?
For me the answer is that the dissidents right to their own life was arbitrarily violated by a strong man. The idea that this dictatorship as a form of government was the source of their rights is absurd. Rights belong to the people.

[flyboy56]

I guess you haven't read the Old Testament. "God" ordered the death penalty for some of the most innocuous offenses!

Before Jesus brought the new laws. I'm a Christen. God can and does change his mind when his children start acting badly.

[regularguy]

God can and does change his mind

How convenient!

[SemiAuto]

We have a Right to kill animals? Animals don't have a Natural Right to life?

Correct. Mostly for the reason that they are 'unreasoning' creatures. There is some debate about this but for the sake of not getting off track, natural rights are exclusive to humans.

For example, I had beef and broccoli stir fry for lunch. I'll wager that you find this bit of information utterly trivial. Now if I told you I had roasted human and broccoli stir fry you'd probably be shocked. Why the difference? Could it be that you don't extend the right to life to cows but you will extend the right to life to humans?

[flyboy56]

Humans have an even longer history of ignoring natural Rights

Do animals have Natural Rights?

Have you ever taken Bible study classes?

[flyboy56]

Soooo... the rights theoretically exist, but can only be exercised under the protection of an enlightened government.

Anthropologists say that modern humans developed about 200,000 years ago. Is it fair to say that "natural rights" began then too? If so, the existence of such rights was utterly worthless for about 199,700 years... and after that, they were available to only the small minority of people who were fortunate enough to live under enlightened governments.

Apples and oranges. We are talking about creationism.

[flyboy56]

How convenient!

Probably why some folks believe God is a woman.

[pickles]

Before Jesus brought the new laws. I'm a Christen. God can and does change his mind when his children start acting badly.

Some Christian. You can't even spell the word.

[regularguy]

Correct. You'll want a government that respects and protects these rights. That doesn't mean they come from government.

For example: you may read in the news that some dictatorship has rounded up some dissidents and shot them. You know this is wrong. Why?
For me the answer is that the dissidents right to their own life was arbitrarily violated by a strong man. The idea that this dictatorship as a form of government was the source of their rights is absurd. Rights belong to the people.

When dissidents are killed by a government, you and I feel it's wrong because it violates our enlightened aspirations for proper human behavior. People have only felt that way in very recent human development. As you note, some people think killing dissidents is perfectly fine. But 500 years ago, everyone thought it was fine (except for the dissidents and their allies, of course).

For something that's "natural", it certainly took nature a hell of a long time to emerge.

[flyboy56]

Some Christian. You can't even spell the word.

Damn grammar Nazi's!

[regularguy]

Apples and oranges. We are talking about creationism.

Are you a young-earth creationist?

[pickles]

Correct. You'll want a government that respects and protects these rights. That doesn't mean they come from government.

For example: you may read in the news that some dictatorship has rounded up some dissidents and shot them. You know this is wrong. Why?
For me the answer is that the dissidents right to their own life was arbitrarily violated by a strong man. The idea that this dictatorship as a form of government was the source of their rights is absurd. Rights belong to the people.

And yet, they clearly DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT, unless a government protects it. Hence, the right comes from the government.

Not "God." Who clearly, arbitrarily it seems, grants them to some people lucky enough to live under governments who respect those rights, and withholds them from others not so lucky.

[flyboy56]

"enlightened aspirations for proper human behavior" regularguy

My, how progressive of you. And where do you suppose those enlightened ideas come from?

[pickles]

Damn grammar Nazi's!

Incorrectly spelling the word "Christian" while claiming to be one, doesn't fall under grammar.

It falls under one of the most ironic things I've ever read.

Combined w your displayed lack of historical knowledge earlier in this thread, kind of invalidates a lot of what you think. To an educated person.

[regularguy]

"enlightened aspirations for proper human behavior" regularguy

My, how progressive of you. And where do you suppose those enlightened ideas come from?

The norms of the society that we're born into. (Those norms can evolve pretty quickly sometimes, as seen in the rapid pace of recognition of equal rights under the law for homosexuals.)

[regularguy]

And yet, they clearly DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT, unless a government protects it. Hence, the right comes from the government.

Not "God." Who clearly, arbitrarily it seems, grants them to some people lucky enough to live under governments who respect those rights, and withholds them from others not so lucky.

Well said.

[slapshot]

No. We kill them for food and enslave their labor and keep them as pets. None of this would be acceptable treatment for a human being.

I guess that depends upon when, and where you lived. Humans have been prey for animals (and other humans) since the dawn of human existence.

[flyboy56]

Are you a young-earth creationist?

There are some things we have no need to know. Like exactly how old the earth is. If you do believe in God then you must also believe in Satan. And Satan is known as the Great Deceiver. And we know it is Satan who was cast down to earth where he dwells amongst us today. God allows him to attempt to turn our faith away from Him. It's very possible that our world is nothing but a false allusion created by Satan. After all, the Bible does allude to Heaven being right here on earth.

[flyboy56]

Incorrectly spelling the word "Christian" while claiming to be one, doesn't fall under grammar.

It falls under one of the most ironic things I've ever read.

Combined w your displayed lack of historical knowledge earlier in this thread, kind of invalidates a lot of what you think. To an educated person.

And now you know why it's best God judges us and not man. He knows exactly why I (oops) misspelled Christian. But then again, the word Christian is actually man made.