Will Dunbar get its a** handed to them by the 2a...

[DayWalker]

1. Lack of a Kicking Game- going for 2 all the time cuts it against lesser talented teams, but you need a kicker who can make at least 80% of PATs and hit FGs up to about 30 yds to beat better teams.

Then maybe all the talk of Dunbar being able to go anywhere and get players they need or want is junk since you say they desperately need a kicking game but haven't "recruited" it.

You can't have it both ways.

[Big Sky]

Did you take Alg 4 at City? Did not it existed. Also, Hereford would give Dunbar a good game. Hereford has played a MUCH tougher schedule than Dunbar and their coaching/discipline is superior in my opinion. Talent can only take you so far.

We can talk about the Catoctin The year after they One the Championship, They were as good as the year before. Good chance they would of repeated. What happened is the coach made a clerical error and played a third string Player in a few blow out games. Coach figured it out and turned him and his team in. They forfeited several games which put them out of the playoffs. After he forfeits the team basically gave up. The reason why they Beat Dunbar, Eagle was right, They had no kicker. Special teams are very important in separating great teams and Good teams . Ask Calvert Hall. If you added all their losses in the last 2 years, most are the result of Poor special team Play. Last year if Gilman played Moeller 5 times they would of lost all 5. Regarding Dunbar thumping their chests, I have seen it in every school, Out of control players are all over every State. Heck I saw the Skins lose a game for the same type of stupidity. It is lack of self discipline, it is a players fault as well as the coaches and the parents. It is also about passion in a weird type of way. If you have a proven way of controlling emotions, patent it and become rich.

[Big Sky]

Then maybe all the talk of Dunbar being able to go anywhere and get players they need or want is junk since you say they desperately need a kicking game but haven't "recruited" it.

You can't have it both ways.

Anybody can kick a extra point, Field goals are a different story. First it has to be in a coaches game plan, (Some Coaches believe their 2pt conversion can not be stopped) In the end it is like every skill in football, you have to have a coach spend a good amount of time and practice it every Day over and over.

[85Knight]

We can talk about the Catoctin The year after they One the Championship, They were as good as the year before. Good chance they would of repeated. What happened is the coach made a clerical error and played a third string Player in a few blow out games. Coach figured it out and turned him and his team in. They forfeited several games which put them out of the playoffs. After he forfeits the team basically gave up. The reason why they Beat Dunbar, Eagle was right, They had no kicker. Special teams are very important in separating great teams and Good teams . Ask Calvert Hall. If you added all their losses in the last 2 years, most are the result of Poor special team Play. Last year if Gilman played Moeller 5 times they would of lost all 5. Regarding Dunbar thumping their chests, I have seen it in every school, Out of control players are all over every State. Heck I saw the Skins lose a game for the same type of stupidity. It is lack of self discipline, it is a players fault as well as the coaches and the parents. It is also about passion in a weird type of way. If you have a proven way of controlling emotions, patent it and become rich.

I don't know if anybody was watching but Dunbar had a kicker after the CH game who was hitting the extra pt. pretty consistently. This is why I say you can't judge a team on one game.

[eaglesinsider]

Then maybe all the talk of Dunbar being able to go anywhere and get players they need or want is junk since you say they desperately need a kicking game but haven't "recruited" it.

You can't have it both ways.

You can't recruit kickers if there are none to be had. This is a four-fold problem:

Problem 1 is the lack of developmental youth soccer programs in Baltimore City. Ask any of the good kickers in this state, of which there were a good amount this year (Adam Greene, Broadneck-Maryland, Ben Priddy, Severn-Georgetown, Jake Ryder, Sherwood-Towson), and I bet they'll tell you that they at least split time if not played more soccer than football growing up. There aren't many City high schools with boys soccer, so there is no demand for the youth programs to feed them. If you're going to be a "soccer-style" kicker, it's pretty beneficial for you to play soccer.

Problem 2 is some of the youth football coaches. These coaches either lack the technical skill to instruct kickers or dismiss the kicking game totally. I don't think you'll find many kickers on the Pop Warner fields in the City, while I've seen rural youth 8th grade teams with kickers who were good from 40+. Some youth coaches are so focused on winning that they don't want to take the risk of developing a kicker because he might miss some extra points that cost them games.

Problem 3 is single-sport specialization. Too many kids are getting pigeon-holed into sports at too young of an age. I'm sure there's plenty of kids in the Baltimore Bays program who could be All-Metro kickers. Cap Proklemba from McDonogh is a good example of this, a good soccer player for three years who decides to try kicking for the football team as well as playing soccer his senior year. Has a great year and gives up soccer, going to Temple to kick and play baseball and getting some looks from the Arena League post-collegiately.

Problem 4 is the stigma of being a "kicker". I believe this discourages some kids with genuine talent from trying out for kicker because they don't want to be seen as "just a kicker". I think this is especially a problem for some African-American youth who see kickers as either an "un-cool" or a "white" position. There is a huge lack of African-American kickers at the collegiate and pro levels. I can think of 1 off the top of my head: Justin Metlock, who kicked at UCLA and had a brief stint with the Chiefs. There's no other position in football except for CB with such a huge disparity.

[First_Down]

We can talk about the Catoctin The year after they One the Championship, They were as good as the year before. Good chance they would of repeated. What happened is the coach made a clerical error and played a third string Player in a few blow out games. Coach figured it out and turned him and his team in. They forfeited several games which put them out of the playoffs. After he forfeits the team basically gave up. The reason why they Beat Dunbar, Eagle was right, They had no kicker. Special teams are very important in separating great teams and Good teams . Ask Calvert Hall. If you added all their losses in the last 2 years, most are the result of Poor special team Play. Last year if Gilman played Moeller 5 times they would of lost all 5. Regarding Dunbar thumping their chests, I have seen it in every school, Out of control players are all over every State. Heck I saw the Skins lose a game for the same type of stupidity. It is lack of self discipline, it is a players fault as well as the coaches and the parents. It is also about passion in a weird type of way. If you have a proven way of controlling emotions, patent it and become rich.

Kinda sounds like the 14 - 0 championship 2006 Friendliy team doesn't it BS? They were the badest thing in cleats that season and on their way to possibly repeating when a third string mop up blow out lineman was discovered to had been falsely enrolled by his parents with bogus documents. Friendly forfeited three games also but unlike 1A where there still could be life after 4 and 5 losses, 3 losses knocked one out of the playoffs in 3A south then and Friendly didn't make the playoffs. Their frustrated coach, not the team, gave up in that he retired to Florida after that season and Friendly has never been the same.

But in the Catoctin case you cite, I'm not so sure the players gave up like you say BS. They still had a shot to make the playoffs from what I recall and to somewhat start over albeit with road play instead of home field advantage. Catoctin even went on to a couple good wins and maybe blow out wins after the forfeit disclosure so they weren't all that distraught and gave in like you say. But they had some ending season dates with MIDDLETOWN who went on to the title game that year and playoff team BRUNSWICK and to me, these teams had more to do with Catoctin not making the playoffs then the team quiting as you're stating BS. Catoctin's loss was on the field and not in their lack of will as you are trying to paint it. Catoctin had every reason to fight like there was no tomorrow because that was the case for them. They were just beaten on the field where things should be decided.

Undisciplined, no special team, low football IQ, poorly coached, hotdogging Dunbar went on to win another title that season... Damn!

[Outside Looking In]

Kinda sounds like the 14 - 0 championship 2006 Friendliy team doesn't it BS? They were the badest thing in cleats that season and on their way to possibly repeating when a third string mop up blow out lineman was discovered to had been falsely enrolled by his parents with bogus documents. Friendly forfeited three games also but unlike 1A where there still could be life after 4 and 5 losses, 3 losses knocked one out of the playoffs in 3A south then and Friendly didn't make the playoffs. Their frustrated coach, not the team, gave up in that he retired to Florida after that season and Friendly has never been the same.

But in the Catoctin case you cite, I'm not so sure the players gave up like you say BS. They still had a shot to make the playoffs from what I recall and to somewhat start over albeit with road play instead of home field advantage. Catoctin even went on to a couple good wins and maybe blow out wins after the forfeit disclosure so they weren't all that distraught and gave in like you say. But they had some ending season dates with MIDDLETOWN who went on to the title game that year and playoff team BRUNSWICK and to me, these teams had more to do with Catoctin not making the playoffs then the team quiting as you're stating BS. Catoctin's loss was on the field and not in their lack of will as you are trying to paint it. Catoctin had every reason to fight like there was no tomorrow because that was the case for them. They were just beaten on the field where things should be decided.

Undisciplined, no special team, low football IQ, poorly coached, hotdogging Dunbar went on to win another title that season... Damn!

Again, against inferior talent in the 1A.

[First_Down]

[/SIZE][/B]

Again, against inferior talent in the 1A.

Yeah, I'll be watching that inferior 1A talent in the NFL combine this year in Tavon Austin. And there seems to an awful lot of inferior talents with schoolies on the Terps squad and in the seats of many schools around the nation.

[First_Down]

Anybody can kick a extra point, Field goals are a different story. First it has to be in a coaches game plan, (Some Coaches believe their 2pt conversion can not be stopped) In the end it is like every skill in football, you have to have a coach spend a good amount of time and practice it every Day over and over.

For pure discussion purposes, the overwhelming marjority of the margin of victory in high school football is such that extra point goals and even field goals are just not that important or like it is in college and the professional ranks where a missed extra can haunt a team the entire game. High school games are just not that close that often. Get a two - three TD lead early in high school football and it's usually lights out.

If two teams have kickers and they use them for all extra points then I think it's a wash. They negate each other in an otherwise evenly matched game. But if one team has and use an extra point kicker but the other team uses the 2-point route, then would extra pressure be bought to the kicking team? That is, if the 2pt conversion team was only successful half of the time, then each team scoring say 2 TDs would then just be even if the kicker team made both their kicks and the 2-pt conversion team made but 1 of 2 succesful attempts. But if the 2-pt conversion team is successful on both attempts, then they would be up by 2-points scoring 2 TDs. Now keep in mind this is high school football where teams who just cross the 50-yard line is more likely to go for it on 4th and very short even with a good kicker since the odds of making 2 or 3 yards for a first down in high school is much better than not as opposed to in the college or the pro ranks. So the odds of converting 2-pointers in high school are favorable from 3-yards out thus coaches take their chances with the odds and the reward.

So yes, it very well could be the coaches game plan and not such a horrible game plan to me to opt for 2. Dunbar could think their 2-pt is unstoppable. Is it Dunbar I'm thinking about who often line up two TEs with a single wideout and on the snap the wideout fades and the TEs cross or the non-wideout side TE just goes to the back middle of the end zone and park while the other TE goes completely across to the opposite back corner. The QB rolls out in an option to keep or toss back side against the grain of the defensive flow or toss to the TE flow with along the back of the end zone or the QB just keeps if the defense does not come up to stop him? I don't know about unstoppable but I thought this 2-pointer scheme was most effective and well worth the risk that really put the pressure on other teams even if they scored and had a good kick since they were still down. It's like a darn good basketball 3-pointer. When they are on they can be a back breaker. Now what I would like is a price to pay for attempting a 2-pointer. That is, if the ball is intercepted or fumbled then the defense should be able to return it for two points rather than just a failed played.

But I like the 2-pointer route in high school. What is more important than an extra point kicker to me is someone who can consistently put kickoffs into the end zone. A strong leg rather than an accurate leg is what I talking about. To me. it's a daunting task in high school to go 80 yards to score. But most high school kickers, even your trained soccer kickers, put the ball on the 5 and 10 or even 15-yard line with teams returning the kicks to the 30, 35, and 40 yard line.

[agentorange]

I've been watching city football for years and I wonder the same thing. What's the talk about their coaching and discipline? I would like some specifics on why Dunbar is any less coached or discipline than Hereford.

Ime baffled as well...in no way do I question Dunbars coaching ability or discipline..6 state titles in 8 years suggest that the poets have what it takes...however, I feel that Mcdonough is that team that would give Dunbar fits... Neither do I question Herefords ability to compete with Dunbar but my concerns in this matter relates to how they matchup chemisty wise...I have noticed that over the last several years, the Bulls have not had as much speed and talent at the skilled positions...and thats where they would suffer vs Dunbar...

[eaglesinsider]

For pure discussion purposes, the overwhelming marjority of the margin of victory in high school football is such that extra point goals and even field goals are just not that important or like it is in college and the professional ranks where a missed extra can haunt a team the entire game. High school games are just not that close that often. Get a two - three TD lead early in high school football and it's usually lights out.

If two teams have kickers and they use them for all extra points then I think it's a wash. They negate each other in an otherwise evenly matched game. But if one team has and use an extra point kicker but the other team uses the 2-point route, then would extra pressure be bought to the kicking team? That is, if the 2pt conversion team was only successful half of the time, then each team scoring say 2 TDs would then just be even if the kicker team made both their kicks and the 2-pt conversion team made but 1 of 2 succesful attempts. But if the 2-pt conversion team is successful on both attempts, then they would be up by 2-points scoring 2 TDs. Now keep in mind this is high school football where teams who just cross the 50-yard line is more likely to go for it on 4th and very short even with a good kicker since the odds of making 2 or 3 yards for a first down in high school is much better than not as opposed to in the college or the pro ranks. So the odds of converting 2-pointers in high school are favorable from 3-yards out thus coaches take their chances with the odds and the reward.

So yes, it very well could be the coaches game plan and not such a horrible game plan to me to opt for 2. Dunbar could think their 2-pt is unstoppable. Is it Dunbar I'm thinking about who often line up two TEs with a single wideout and on the snap the wideout fades and the TEs cross or the non-wideout side TE just goes to the back middle of the end zone and park while the other TE goes completely across to the opposite back corner. The QB rolls out in an option to keep or toss back side against the grain of the defensive flow or toss to the TE flow with along the back of the end zone or the QB just keeps if the defense does not come up to stop him? I don't know about unstoppable but I thought this 2-pointer scheme was most effective and well worth the risk that really put the pressure on other teams even if they scored and had a good kick since they were still down. It's like a darn good basketball 3-pointer. When they are on they can be a back breaker. Now what I would like is a price to pay for attempting a 2-pointer. That is, if the ball is intercepted or fumbled then the defense should be able to return it for two points rather than just a failed played.

But I like the 2-pointer route in high school. What is more important than an extra point kicker to me is someone who can consistently put kickoffs into the end zone. A strong leg rather than an accurate leg is what I talking about. To me. it's a daunting task in high school to go 80 yards to score. But most high school kickers, even your trained soccer kickers, put the ball on the 5 and 10 or even 15-yard line with teams returning the kicks to the 30, 35, and 40 yard line.

Like I said, if you have better talent (like Dunbar in most city league games), than the 2-pt play is alright. However, when you run into better teams, you realize it isn't as great a proposition. If your theory was so valid, all the good high school teams would go for 2. How many Mater Dei's, De La Salle's, St. Thomas Aquinas's, Good Counsel's, Gilman's go for two every time? None. They realize that it is really only about a 25-33% success rate against good teams. It's bit Dunbar twice in the 1A playoffs, (2005 Snow Hill, 20-18 L where SH hit 2/3 PATs and Dunbar went 0-2 on 2-pt plays and 2009 Catoctin, 13-12 L where Catoctin hit 1/2 PATs and Dunbar went 0-2 on 2-pt plays). Dunbar is so spoiled by the level of competition that they've slacked on developing the little things that make the difference against better teams.

[Outside Looking In]

Yeah, I'll be watching that inferior 1A talent in the NFL combine this year in Tavon Austin. And there seems to an awful lot of inferior talents with schoolies on the Terps squad and in the seats of many schools around the nation.

Do you pick and choose how you interpret things? I never said Dunbar doesnt have talent, they probably have the most talent in the area outside of Gilman.

What I said is the talent they play is inferior. Open your eyes and read buddy.

By the way, Austin was probably the most dynamic HS player I have ever seen, but tha doesnt mean that he did not play against inferior talent.

[Outside Looking In]

Like I said, if you have better talent (like Dunbar in most city league games), than the 2-pt play is alright. However, when you run into better teams, you realize it isn't as great a proposition. If your theory was so valid, all the good high school teams would go for 2. How many Mater Dei's, De La Salle's, St. Thomas Aquinas's, Good Counsel's, Gilman's go for two every time? None. They realize that it is really only about a 25-33% success rate against good teams. It's bit Dunbar twice in the 1A playoffs, (2005 Snow Hill, 20-18 L where SH hit 2/3 PATs and Dunbar went 0-2 on 2-pt plays and 2009 Catoctin, 13-12 L where Catoctin hit 1/2 PATs and Dunbar went 0-2 on 2-pt plays). Dunbar is so spoiled by the level of competition that they've slacked on developing the little things that make the difference against better teams.

Exactly!

[First_Down]

Like I said, if you have better talent (like Dunbar in most city league games), than the 2-pt play is alright. However, when you run into better teams, you realize it isn't as great a proposition. If your theory was so valid, all the good high school teams would go for 2. How many Mater Dei's, De La Salle's, St. Thomas Aquinas's, Good Counsel's, Gilman's go for two every time? None. They realize that it is really only about a 25-33% success rate against good teams. It's bit Dunbar twice in the 1A playoffs, (2005 Snow Hill, 20-18 L where SH hit 2/3 PATs and Dunbar went 0-2 on 2-pt plays and 2009 Catoctin, 13-12 L where Catoctin hit 1/2 PATs and Dunbar went 0-2 on 2-pt plays). Dunbar is so spoiled by the level of competition that they've slacked on developing the little things that make the difference against better teams.

Yeap, good points. It is better to have a kicker than not. It is better to have a good kicker than just a kicker. But if you are correct in your assessment that good kickers are not to be had in BMore City then with limited time and resources to develop other essential aspects of the game, why should the coaching staff at Dunbar or any other school waste resources to force or develop what they can survive and survive well without? And yes you can site games where a kicker could have pulled out a game or two and yes teams like Gilman and Good Counsel can go out and bring in what they need as they will not be caught died without a good kicker BUT correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't the Gilman-GC end in regulation 13-13 last year? And wasn't a Good Counsel field goal attempt blocked by Gilman as time expired for that 13-13 regulation tie? And didn't Gilman score first in OT but missed the extra point attempt? Well, so much for your theory that kicking is the be all to end all. Just as one can win with the kick, one can also lose by the their own kick just as one can lose not having a kick and you want to make that point with Dunbar while ignoring that teams loss going the safe route of the kick.

[First_Down]

Do you pick and choose how you interpret things? I never said Dunbar doesnt have talent, they probably have the most talent in the area outside of Gilman.

What I said is the talent they play is inferior. Open your eyes and read buddy.

By the way, Austin was probably the most dynamic HS player I have ever seen, but tha doesnt mean that he did not play against inferior talent.

OLI, Dunbar just does not play other "inferior" 1A schools. They play teams from other classifications, regions, and conferences like other teams. Now if you wish to call City, Poly, Patterson, Edmondson and others not in 1A inferior then fine, we can discuss that. But Dunbar does not play in the inferior 1A, By enrollment they are in 1A. They play in the BMore city league and I'm not sure if BMore has any 4A schools but they play where they are located like all other public school teams. Come title time, it's 1A. You try to read and understand! And take your time.

OLI, if 1A is inferior because Dunbar has superior talent and dominated the classification then the MIAA-A is inferior because Gilman has the superior talent and dominates that league. Would you call the MIAA-A inferior? Again, take your time and think about it before you answer.

[Outside Looking In]

OLI, Dunbar just does not play other "inferior" 1A schools. They play teams from other classifications, regions, and conferences like other teams. Now if you wish to call City, Poly, Patterson, Edmondson and others not in 1A inferior then fine, we can discuss that. But Dunbar does not play in the inferior 1A, By enrollment they are in 1A. They play in the BMore city league and I'm not sure if BMore has any 4A schools but they play where they are located like all other public school teams. Come title time, it's 1A. You try to read and understand! And take your time.

OLI, if 1A is inferior because Dunbar has superior talent and dominated the classification then the MIAA-A is inferior because Gilman has the superior talent and dominates that league. Would you call the MIAA-A inferior? Again, take your time and think about it before you answer.

Not a good comparison in my opinion.

[DayWalker]

Didn't the Gilman-GC end in regulation 13-13 last year? And wasn't a Good Counsel field goal attempt blocked by Gilman as time expired for that 13-13 regulation tie? And didn't Gilman score first in OT but missed the extra point attempt? Well, so much for your theory that kicking is the be all to end all. Just as one can win with the kick, one can also lose by the their own kick just as one can lose not having a kick and you want to make that point with Dunbar while ignoring that teams loss going the safe route of the kick.

I was at that Gilman versus Good Counsel game. If I remember correctly, Gilman kicked a field first and GC ran a short TD but didn't make the PAT kick. Gilman kicked another field goal to make it tied at 6. GC then had a short TD pass and made the PAT. Gilman then had a big long TD and good PAT to make it tied at 13. There was a blocked kick at the end of regular time and they went into overtime.. Gilman had a TD run and a bad PAT kick. GC had a TD run and good PAT kick. So the kicking kept each team in the game and the kicks utimately lost the game for Gilman and won it for GC.

[agentorange]

OLI, Dunbar just does not play other "inferior" 1A schools. They play teams from other classifications, regions, and conferences like other teams. Now if you wish to call City, Poly, Patterson, Edmondson and others not in 1A inferior then fine, we can discuss that. But Dunbar does not play in the inferior 1A, By enrollment they are in 1A. They play in the BMore city league and I'm not sure if BMore has any 4A schools but they play where they are located like all other public school teams. Come title time, it's 1A. You try to read and understand! And take your time.

OLI, if 1A is inferior because Dunbar has superior talent and dominated the classification then the MIAA-A is inferior because Gilman has the superior talent and dominates that league. Would you call the MIAA-A inferior? Again, take your time and think about it before you answer.

When taken into consideration that they are a 1a school....pound for pound, Dunbar by far, plays the toughest schedule of any team in the entire state...too many people take Dunbar for granted...wether we like it or not, they are a 1a school....outside of Fort Hill...I don't know a 1a school that could play City, Poly, Patterson, Edmondson and Chc and have a what is considered a good season, much less win a state title....

[BJC]

Yeah, I'll be watching that inferior 1A talent in the NFL combine this year in Tavon Austin. And there seems to an awful lot of inferior talents with schoolies on the Terps squad and in the seats of many schools around the nation.

Quite a few college scouts have been visiting inferior 1A New Town lately as well

[First_Down]

BJC

Can you tell me NT's record last season against non-inferior 1A teams last year if they played any non-inferior 1A teams?