Will Dunbar get its a** handed to them by the 2a...

[First_Down]

Funny you should bring this up because this is what this thread has morphed into. The private school bias. We all know money matters when it comes to putting together a sports program and we've created this monster around here called the MIAA A conference that's a self feeding behemoth. What we've done is created this little league of 6 teams that promotes itself as being better than everyone else, even other private schools. What happens is you call it the A conference and naturally you're going to attract the best players available. After all what kid wants to play in the B conference? Then you throw in the self promotion of some alumni and The Sun poll bias and you get what we have now. A league that can play a lot of out of conference games and be ranked high because the losses are to other "elite" programs.

When you have a league that has the advantages of recruiting and traveling it should be better than everyone else and when you throw in the self promotion and The Sun poll bias it feeds itself. We even had a poster suggest we create a mega conference based on endowment. Wow! I'm not beating the league down, I'm just stating the facts. We all know the city league has its own problems and has done very little to even try to stay competitive lately. I do believe that 10 years ago the playing field was a lot more even but over the last few years the gap has widened for all the reasons I stated. Which leads us back to our original argument that when Tavon played the competition he faced was pretty good and definitely better than what he'd face today.

Is it me or do others also now just hear crickets...

[First_Down]

The deafening sounds of crickets is driving me nuts so I'll speak up. I did a little guru and looked up some info that clearly confirms what I've been saying from instinct all the while. And that is things go in cycles. Privates are the queen of the ball now and publics were king several years ago. Teams / leagues are in a run for a period and get run over at other times.

Using the top 10 MaxPreps rankings going back to 2004, I see that 3 of 10 privates were in the top in 2012. It was 4 of 10 privates in 2011, 4 of 10 in 2010, 2 of 10 in 2009, 1 of 10 in 2008, 1 of 10 in 2007, 1 of 10 in 2006, 3 of 10 in 2005, and 2 of 10 in 2004.

So never were there more than 4 privates in the top 10 ( Maryland exclusive league teams ) and mostly it was two teams, Gilman and Loyola.

Seems to me that the privates of Maryland have nothing to gloat about over time. This is something that should not have impressed OLI also. Without Gilman being in the top ten 6 of the 9 years, the world could be flat....

[eaglesinsider]

The deafening sounds of crickets is driving me nuts so I'll speak up. I did a little guru and looked up some info that clearly confirms what I've been saying from instinct all the while. And that is things go in cycles. Privates are the queen of the ball now and publics were king several years ago. Teams / leagues are in a run for a period and get run over at other times.

Using the top 10 MaxPreps rankings going back to 2004, I see that 3 of 10 privates were in the top in 2012. It was 4 of 10 privates in 2011, 4 of 10 in 2010, 2 of 10 in 2009, 1 of 10 in 2008, 1 of 10 in 2007, 1 of 10 in 2006, 3 of 10 in 2005, and 2 of 10 in 2004.

So never were there more than 4 privates in the top 10 ( Maryland exclusive league teams ) and mostly it was two teams, Gilman and Loyola.

Seems to me that the privates of Maryland have nothing to gloat about over time. This is something that should not have impressed OLI also. Without Gilman, the world could be flat....

That's all well and good, but the MaxPreps rankings exclude MD schools DeMatha, Good Counsel, Landon, and Bullis, so add 2 more schools to the top 10 in 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009 and at least 1 more every year since 2004.

The other thing to consider is that there are less than 40 private schools that play football in MD, and never anymore than 8-10 at the highest level (MIAA A/WCAC). So now your talking 2-6 of 35-40 schools in the top 10, am much better percentage than 4-8 of 180+ public schools.

[GREYHOUND ALUM]

That's all well and good, but the MaxPreps rankings exclude MD schools DeMatha, Good Counsel, Landon, and Bullis, so add 2 more schools to the top 10 in 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009 and at least 1 more every year since 2004.

The other thing to consider is that there are less than 40 private schools that play football in MD, and never anymore than 8-10 at the highest level (MIAA A/WCAC). So now your talking 2-6 of 35-40 schools in the top 10, am much better percentage than 4-8 of 180+ public schools.

You hit it on the nose. How many privates are there and how many publics?

[85Knight]

That's all well and good, but the MaxPreps rankings exclude MD schools DeMatha, Good Counsel, Landon, and Bullis, so add 2 more schools to the top 10 in 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009 and at least 1 more every year since 2004.

The other thing to consider is that there are less than 40 private schools that play football in MD, and never anymore than 8-10 at the highest level (MIAA A/WCAC). So now your talking 2-6 of 35-40 schools in the top 10, am much better percentage than 4-8 of 180+ public schools.

You can't just look at the top schools and exclude the lower levels unless you do the same for the publics. If you look at the city league the lower level D-I teams are equivalent to the MIAA B conference and the D-II schools are equal to the MIAA C conference teams. If the publics were divided up like the privates more than half the teams would be lower level and you'd be looking at less than 90 teams. The privates don't dominate the rankings, just the very top of the rankings. There's a big difference. The privates that get all the pub are the "elite" ones but there are bottom feeder privates as well.

[DJGreg1200]

DJGreg must be sick. Now all we need is a city team to knock of his boys team. The Miller guards are excellent but Costley can't man the boards all by himself.

How did I end up getting dragged into this convo?

[First_Down]

How did I end up getting dragged into this convo?

They say if you use the devil's name, it will appear!

[First_Down]

You hit it on the nose. How many privates are there and how many publics?

It's a might big nose to hit when as OLI states, "...privates have stud linemen and good players at EVERY position..." With the odds of this occurring year after year after year with just kids randomly applying for admission then it must be a purposeful act to bring in what's needed to field highly competitive teams and we all acknowledge thats what's done in the private realm. So that compared to publics who must essentially make due with whomever walks through the door, I really think that the number of public schools related to the number of private schools is really moot. Take 200 public high schools in an area but have just 40 privates who can first take the very best players available and couple that with near unlimitless resources to coach and develop the private players, then it would be most disappointing not to dominate as is done in other states. But I see just the opposite happening in Maryland. The public have ruled or more than held their own with various teams ascending to the top.

wat's up wit dat...

[First_Down]

The privates that get all the pub are the "elite" ones but there are bottom feeder privates as well.

There are mediocre private teams AND bottom feeders...

[GREYHOUND ALUM]

It's a might big nose to hit when as OLI states, "...privates have stud linemen and good players at EVERY position..." With the odds of this occurring year after year after year with just kids randomly applying for admission then it must be a purposeful act to bring in what's needed to field highly competitive teams and we all acknowledge thats what's done in the private realm. So that compared to publics who must essentially make due with whomever walks through the door, I really think that the number of public schools related to the number of private schools is really moot. Take 200 public high schools in an area but have just 40 privates who can first take the very best players available and couple that with near unlimitless resources to coach and develop the private players, then it would be most disappointing not to dominate as is done in other states. But I see just the opposite happening in Maryland. The public have ruled or more than held their own with various teams ascending to the top.

wat's up wit dat...

I can only speak for Gilman and I tell you it's not the case. I can tell you that the top youth league players statewide almost all applied to get into Gilman and you have no clue how many didn't get accepted. I'm talking about even kids with straight A's. Gilman was looking at having a historic Class for 2017 and because of how selective they are, it's not going to happen. Calvert Hall and many other schools(including DM and Good Counsel) are the direct benefit of Gilman's admission process.

[pmore108]

It's a might big nose to hit when as OLI states, "...privates have stud linemen and good players at EVERY position..." With the odds of this occurring year after year after year with just kids randomly applying for admission then it must be a purposeful act to bring in what's needed to field highly competitive teams and we all acknowledge thats what's done in the private realm. So that compared to publics who must essentially make due with whomever walks through the door, I really think that the number of public schools related to the number of private schools is really moot. Take 200 public high schools in an area but have just 40 privates who can first take the very best players available and couple that with near unlimitless resources to coach and develop the private players, then it would be most disappointing not to dominate as is done in other states. But I see just the opposite happening in Maryland. The public have ruled or more than held their own with various teams ascending to the top.

wat's up wit dat...

Not every private has unlimited resources. As a matter of fact, all but maybe 2-3 don't have unlimited resources. Couple that with the fact that every private has a mission besides athletics, admission standards, the necessity of the parents to at least pay something and the fact that there is often debate about the importance of athletics at most of these schools then there are definitely going to be private schools that are 'bottom feeders' or mediocre.

[First_Down]

Not every private has unlimited resources. As a matter of fact, all but maybe 2-3 don't have unlimited resources. Couple that with the fact that every private has a mission besides athletics, admission standards, the necessity of the parents to at least pay something and the fact that there is often debate about the importance of athletics at most of these schools then there are definitely going to be private schools that are 'bottom feeders' or mediocre.

Good points BUT when I related to folks like OLI that the privates weren't Gilman top to bottom; that they had their fair share of mediocre and bottom feeders, I was soundly rebuffed. I was informed that all privates had at least three, four, five elite players where publics were lucky to have one or two but most had none. Now at least we can agree that the privates aren't all Gilman or Good Counsel.

[Outside Looking In]

Good points BUT when I related to folks like OLI that the privates weren't Gilman top to bottom; that they had their fair share of mediocre and bottom feeders, I was soundly rebuffed. I was informed that all privates had at least three, four, five elite players where publics were lucky to have one or two but most had none. Now at least we can agree that the privates aren't all Gilman or Good Counsel.

A mediocre private is most of the time better than a good public. Spalding would have beat most of the good publics in the state. Not the best publics,but the good publics.

[85Knight]

Not every private has unlimited resources. As a matter of fact, all but maybe 2-3 don't have unlimited resources. Couple that with the fact that every private has a mission besides athletics, admission standards, the necessity of the parents to at least pay something and the fact that there is often debate about the importance of athletics at most of these schools then there are definitely going to be private schools that are 'bottom feeders' or mediocre.

Now you're making my point. This begs the question, what separates the A conference from the other private schools? Do they have more resources? No. Do they have different admission standards? No. Do they place more emphasis on athletics? Yes.

So this really isn't a debate of public vs. private. It's really a debate of the "A" conference vs. everybody else. Being a private school doesn't automatically make you better than a public school in sports but when you couple the resources and the emphasis on athletics along with creating an exclusive club you get "The A Conference." That big bad monster that eats everyone else alive, both public and private.

[First_Down]

I can only speak for Gilman and I tell you it's not the case. I can tell you that the top youth league players statewide almost all applied to get into Gilman and you have no clue how many didn't get accepted. I'm talking about even kids with straight A's. Gilman was looking at having a historic Class for 2017 and because of how selective they are, it's not going to happen. Calvert Hall and many other schools(including DM and Good Counsel) are the direct benefit of Gilman's admission process.

So have you ever heard of any straight A's students not getting in Gilman but football players with something far less than straight A's get in with so-called need based financial aid at Gilman?

[pmore108]

Now you're making my point. This begs the question, what separates the A conference from the other private schools? Do they have more resources? No. Do they have different admission standards? No. Do they place more emphasis on athletics? Yes.

So this really isn't a debate of public vs. private. It's really a debate of the "A" conference vs. everybody else. Being a private school doesn't automatically make you better than a public school in sports but when you couple the resources and the emphasis on athletics along with creating an exclusive club you get "The A Conference." That big bad monster that eats everyone else alive, both public and private.

I believe many of the 'A' conference schools have a higher admission standard, IN GENERAL, than the b or c conference schools. I can tell you for a fact that the importance of athletics is debated at almost all of the "A" conference schools. I also agree with the statement that a football team like Spalding would beat most good public schools. Antoher example is St. Paul's lacrosse: 3-15 last year, lost to Hereford the State Champion and most dominate public school team in the state by one goal.

[TheGuru]

How did I end up getting dragged into this convo?

Last I heard you were a Milford Mill supporter. You'd think that extends to girls basketball. You weren't dragged into anything.

[First_Down]

I believe many of the 'A' conference schools have a higher admission standard, IN GENERAL, than the b or c conference schools. I can tell you for a fact that the importance of athletics is debated at almost all of the "A" conference schools. I also agree with the statement that a football team like Spalding would beat most good public schools. Antoher example is St. Paul's lacrosse: 3-15 last year, lost to Hereford the State Champion and most dominate public school team in the state by one goal.

I don't think that the admission standard is neccessarily higher merely by being in the A conference because that's based on the level of play of the school on the field rather than test scores or academic standards, right? Spalding is in the A Conference now but they were the B Conference champions just a couple years ago and they moved up because of their field play rather than a group of students suddenly becoming brighter.

And you can't say that a football team like Spalding would beat most good public schools because they went up against a good public school with a freshamn QB just last season playing in his very first game and that Douglass-PG school whacked Spalding. I saw the kid's highlights and there was one read option he ran that had him looking like RGIII as he tore down the sideline for a 70-80 yard run. Spalding had no clue of who had the ball. In a couple TD passes, he smoked Spalding again with superior ball handling skills that had Spalding dumbfounded as to who had the ball. Douglass-PG soundly beat Spalding at Spalding and the excuses of the lose of their coach etc etc just does not pass the smell test. Gwynn Park, Patuxent, Middletown, McDonough, North Point, Westlake, River Hill, Wise, Ouince Orchard, Huntingtown, Suitland, and many others would have also had their way with Spalding. Just because a team is in the MIAA-A conference, does not make them Gilman whom you can legitmately say would beat most good public schools as they have beaten all privates of late save ........

[eaglesinsider]

You can't just look at the top schools and exclude the lower levels unless you do the same for the publics. If you look at the city league the lower level D-I teams are equivalent to the MIAA B conference and the D-II schools are equal to the MIAA C conference teams. If the publics were divided up like the privates more than half the teams would be lower level and you'd be looking at less than 90 teams. The privates don't dominate the rankings, just the very top of the rankings. There's a big difference. The privates that get all the pub are the "elite" ones but there are bottom feeder privates as well.

All in all, there are actually 1/4 less football-playing private schools in MD than I originally thought. There are 19 in the MIAA (7 A, 6 B, 5 C), 3 in the WCAC, 2 in the IAC, 3 in the 2 DC-based small school leagues and 3 Independents. So 30 private schools, covering everyone from DeMatha, Good Counsel, and Gilman to Friends School and Saint James School in terms of level of competition, routinely place multiple teams in the top 10 year in and year out. 4/30 seems a lot better than 6/180.

I'd say the Top 4 private schools are completely out of the public schools league on almost any given year. The next 6 schools would be favored against all but the top 1 or 2 public schools. So I'd say the top 10 (1/3) of the private schools have the capability to beat all 180 public schools on any given year. Once you get outside the top 10 private schools, the playing field levels quickly (Privates 11-20 would be competitive with the bottom 2/3 of the public schools and have the potential to knock off teams in the top 1/3, privates 21-30 would be competitive with the bottom 1/3 of public schools). So yes, the privates are top-heavy, but you could argue the the publics are bottom-heavy as well.

Just for illustration purposes, these are the privates I would put in my top 10 (largely based on final MaxPreps Rankings):
- Good Counsel
- Gilman
- DeMatha
- Calvert Hall
- McDonogh
- Saint Paul's
- Georgetown Prep
- Landon
- Loyola
- Archbishop Spalding

Here is my 11-20:
- Saint Frances
- Mount Saint Joseph
- John Carroll
- Archbishop Curley
- Saint Mary's
- Saint Mary's Ryken
- Bishop McNamara
- Bullis
- Boy's Latin
- Severn

Here is my 21-30:
- Pallotti
- Bishop Walsh
- Avalon
- Riverdale Baptist
- AACS
- Saint James
- Saint John's Catholic Prep
- Our Lady of Mount Carmel
- Friends
- Baltimore Lutheran

[85Knight]

Doesn't it make sense that the publics are bottom heavy when publics schools are mandated and privates aren't? If there's a small town in Washington Co. they have to have a public high school but they don't have to have private school. Privates schools are a choice whereas publics are created by need. Big difference.