"Law abiding" gun owner shoots man after dog runs in front of pickup

[Cameron]

But the right to self defense is not restricted, only one of the tools used for self defense is restricted.

I'm not sure if you realize that, in the same sentence, you are saying that the right is not restricted and the right is restricted.

In any event, Smokey, it is particularly the RKBA we are discussing here.

Madison was one of the only delegates who wanted to deprive the states of sovereignty completely, which he considered the only solution to the problem.

Imagine the time, blood and treasure which might have been saved.

[Smokey 1]

I'm not sure if you realize that, in the same sentence, you are saying that the right is not restricted and the right is restricted.

Not really. The right to self defense stands only one of the tools for that defense is restricted. You can defend yourself with knives, your hands, or any blunt object you can find.

In any event, Smokey, it is particularly the RKBA we are discussing here.

OK, then do you propose that the right to bear arms should be unlimited?

[Cameron]

Not really. The right to self defense stands only one of the tools for that defense is restricted. You can defend yourself with knives, your hands, or any blunt object you can find.

OK, then do you propose that the right to bear arms should be unlimited?

I am saying that the government needs a compelling reason to restrict the right.

That is the Constitutional standard for the government's ability to restrict any of our individual rights.

[Smokey 1]

I am saying that the government needs a compelling reason to restrict the right.

That is the Constitutional standard for the government's ability to restrict any of our individual rights.

OK, I have no problem with that.

[Cameron]

OK, I have no problem with that.

What compelling reason is there in prohibiting someone who has paid his debt to society from the RKBA?

[The Astute Reader(tm)]

What compelling reason is there in prohibiting someone who has paid his debt to society from the RKBA?

The risk of recidivism is exceedingly high. It is comforting to say that someone has "paid their debt to society" but the truth is the person in question, in the case of a violent offense, has demonstrated a willingness to harm others. Having spent time in prison really does nothing to change that behavior in any meaningful way. In fact, it may be fair to say that most come out of prison as 'better trained' criminals than when they went in.

I have no qualms about prohibiting the RKBA for convicted felons. They forfeited their rights through their own actions and were convicted by due process of law.

[ms maggie]

Maybe so. But back to the point, do you believe Scalia knows more about the intent of the Constitution than Madison?

Well clearly people who were there would have the edge. But the idea that there was only one "intent" is silly. It's the reason some things are so vague and open to interpretation in my opinion.

As you know, there were many, like our boy Hamilton, who were dead set against a Bill of Rights for instance.

It always amusing that some people have this picture of the Founders as divinely inspired and all united in their thinking. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Cameron]

"Keep in mind our Constitution predates the Industrial Revolution. Our founders did not know about electricity, the train, telephones, radio, television, automobiles, airplanes, rockets, nuclear weapons, satellites, or space exploration. There's a lot they didn't know about. It would be interesting to see what kind of document they'd draft today. Just keeping it frozen in time won't hack it." --- Ross Perot

[Smokey 1]

"Keep in mind our Constitution predates the Industrial Revolution. Our founders did not know about electricity, the train, telephones, radio, television, automobiles, airplanes, rockets, nuclear weapons, satellites, or space exploration. There's a lot they didn't know about. It would be interesting to see what kind of document they'd draft today. Just keeping it frozen in time won't hack it." --- Ross Perot

That is why it is important to understand the intent. Otherwise what are you going to do, throw it out the window?

[Cameron]

That is why it is important to understand the intent.

Smokey, they didn't all have the same "intent."

John Marshall sure shocked the hell outta Jefferson with Marbury v. Madison and the Founders were still alive then.

Otherwise what are you going to do, throw it out the window?

I have read Congressional debates that the 14th was, from the beginning, intended to incorporate the entire Bill of Rights.

The court did not interpret the amendment that way, but did it piecemeal.