Governors, stop bashing liberal arts

[soulflower]

Interesting take from two conservative Gov's -


http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/20/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c1

"In an ironic showing of big government, Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Texas Gov. Rick Perry, both conservatives, decided to introduce plans in which state institutions charge less for STEM degrees (science, technology, engineering and math) than liberal arts degrees.

"We're spending a lot of money on education, and when you look at the results, it's not great," Scott told a crowd in Tallahassee in 2011. "Do you want to use your tax money to educate more people who can't get jobs in anthropology? I don't."

I think college tuition needs to be reformed but I agree that this isn't the way to do it.

We need an across the board solution...

[Smokey 1]

I think college tuition needs to be reformed but I agree that this isn't the way to do it.

We need an across the board solution...

Why not just provide scholarships in areas that are needed?

[soulflower]

Why not just provide scholarships in areas that are needed?

That's not going to solve the problem of college tuition rising faster than the rate of inflation.

We need to figure out what's driving the cost and how to slow it down.

[dogstarman]

Really, the LAST thing we need is a flood of uninspired and untalented STEM grads who went into the programs just because their parents and/or government incentivised it.

"Head count" is not what will make us stronger in technology. If anything, that will dilute the value of STEM degrees and make it harder to find truly qualified people.

Instead, employers need to step up and invest in their workforce through training and easing back on the outsourcing. Too many businesses are caught in a never-ending downward spiral of short-sighted "cost-reduction".

[The Astute Reader(tm)]

Really, the LAST thing we need is a flood of uninspired and untalented STEM grads who went into the programs just because their parents and/or government incentivised it.

"Head count" is not what will make us stronger in technology. If anything, that will dilute the value of STEM degrees and make it harder to find truly qualified people.

Instead, employers need to step up and invest in their workforce through training and easing back on the outsourcing. Too many businesses are caught in a never-ending downward spiral of short-sighted "cost-reduction".

I agree. Persons who lack a true talent for engineering or the sciences can only expect to be mediocre at best. And the last thing we need in industry is a flood of mediocrity.

[The Astute Reader(tm)]

From my own pov, I'm not sure I agree that developing these STEM skills necessarily requires a degree.

Heh. Heh.

Ignorance is bliss. Can ya tell it's not my field?

I'm not saying universally, but surely some of these positions could be filled by vocational training not requiring a degree.

Vo-Tech training can only get a person so far. And the quality of the Vo-Tech school is of vital importance. There is a surfeit of people who believe themselves to be 'designers' yet the only thing the school taught them was how to use the software. Many of them have no actual talent or aptitude for design.

[bullmikey]

My company had trouble finding quality software engineers. Granted these weren't entry level positions, but the people coming through the door weren't encouraging.

You have to qualify that too; many companies manipulate the law to their advantage. Poor qualified Johnny On the spot showers, shaves, brushes his teeth, combs his freshly trimmed hair, puts on his best suit, shirt, and tie, and his shiniest shoes, and then goes to interview for a job that, unbeknownst to him, he has no chance in hell of ever getting. It’s an empty ritual repeated over and over again in Corporate America. They’ll never call; Johnny will be waiting forever to hear from them. Why? Because they’ve already hired Shantanu from Over Yonder and Johnny On the spot is just a shill brought into HR so that they can cross the “Ts” and dot the “Is” in accordance with the law. That way Such and Such, Inc. can show the government on paper that they made a diligent effort to hire an American for the job before seeking elsewhere. It isn’t that Johnny On the spot lacks the necessary credentials but that Shantanu has those very same credentials and, what’s more, will do the job for about half of what Johnny was expecting. Corporate America’s patriotism begins and ends with their bottom line.

It’s not that we need more engineers, scientists, mathematicians, etc., but that we need more willing to work for a lot less. The agenda of the Corporate Utopia is to depreciate the value of labor across the board. So ditto for the craftsman and tradesman of yore; the influx from south of the border will slowly turn his craft or trade into one of those jobs that Americans no longer want to do. That’s because your average American is no more or less patriotic than your average corporation. We don’t want to pay a fair wage if we don’t have to.

So before you defend "your company" best be sure just how hard they tried to find qualified Americans. The very large corporation I work for tends to find their most qualified applicants in Bombay these days.

[ivanbalt]

You have to qualify that too; many companies manipulate the law to their advantage. Poor qualified Johnny On the spot showers, shaves, brushes his teeth, combs his freshly trimmed hair, puts on his best suit, shirt, and tie, and his shiniest shoes, and then goes to interview for a job that, unbeknownst to him, he has no chance in hell of ever getting. It’s an empty ritual repeated over and over again in Corporate America. They’ll never call; Johnny will be waiting forever to hear from them. Why? Because they’ve already hired Shantanu from Over Yonder and Johnny On the spot is just a shill brought into HR so that they can cross the “Ts” and dot the “Is” in accordance with the law. That way Such and Such, Inc. can show the government on paper that they made a diligent effort to hire an American for the job before seeking elsewhere. It isn’t that Johnny On the spot lacks the necessary credentials but that Shantanu has those very same credentials and, what’s more, will do the job for about half of what Johnny was expecting. Corporate America’s patriotism begins and ends with their bottom line.

It’s not that we need more engineers, scientists, mathematicians, etc., but that we need more willing to work for a lot less. The agenda of the Corporate Utopia is to depreciate the value of labor across the board. So ditto for the craftsman and tradesman of yore; the influx from south of the border will slowly turn his craft or trade into one of those jobs that Americans no longer want to do. That’s because your average American is no more or less patriotic than your average corporation. We don’t want to pay a fair wage if we don’t have to.

So before you defend "your company" best be sure just how hard they tried to find qualified Americans. The very large corporation I work for tends to find their most qualified applicants in Bombay these days.

That's not the case with my division. Nothing was ever outsourced. Took forever, but we found people in this country.

[flyboy56]

From my own pov, I'm not sure I agree that developing these STEM skills necessarily requires a degree.

Heh. Heh.

Ignorance is bliss. Can ya tell it's not my field?

I'm not saying universally, but surely some of these positions could be filled by vocational training not requiring a degree.

Completing a degree program, especially a 4 year program, shows ambition. Companies now a days want employees who are ambitious and career oriented. And a 4 year degree is the new HS diploma for even entry level positions.

[flyboy56]

They are trying to reduce the amount of people who are taught to think for themselves and question authority. Good move for conservatism.

Getting a degree in a technical field makes you less apt to think for yourself? Where did you learn that?

[flyboy56]

That's not going to solve the problem of college tuition rising faster than the rate of inflation.

We need to figure out what's driving the cost and how to slow it down.

Start with government stimulus and QE to keep our standard of living higher than the flat wages most people are making.

[flyboy56]

Really, the LAST thing we need is a flood of uninspired and untalented STEM grads who went into the programs just because their parents and/or government incentivised it.

"Head count" is not what will make us stronger in technology. If anything, that will dilute the value of STEM degrees and make it harder to find truly qualified people.

Instead, employers need to step up and invest in their workforce through training and easing back on the outsourcing. Too many businesses are caught in a never-ending downward spiral of short-sighted "cost-reduction".

Most of those who are uninspired or lack motivation will eventually just flunk out. A penalty should be imposed on those who do not finish the programs. And reimbursements will only be made if the course is successfully completed with the instructors recommendation the student should advance.

[grggngll]

Vo-Tech training can only get a person so far. And the quality of the Vo-Tech school is of vital importance. There is a surfeit of people who believe themselves to be 'designers' yet the only thing the school taught them was how to use the software. Many of them have no actual talent or aptitude for design.

That statement is probably true for most educations.

In a free market those with the education, skills, experience, flexibility will be rewarded better than those with just the education.

Same is true for doctors, lawyers, engineers, nurses.

Unless of course we are talking about unions, or schools for that matter. Then everything is thrown out the door and now a new set of criteria is used.

And we have a prime example occupying the white house. Stuck in the agitator role and no gravitas or understanding what the new role requires.

[Phineas Finn]

Why not just provide scholarships in areas that are needed?

But wouldn't that be another case of government picking winners and losers?

(Couldn't help it)

[grggngll]

Getting a degree in a technical field makes you less apt to think for yourself? Where did you learn that?

Nothing that will teach you to think for yourself is learning how to ....

http://www.holytaco.com/the-10-most-...ollege-majors/

[MontanaJack]

It's a matter of supply and demand. I'm a java developer in the bay area. The equilibrium/market price for a Senior Java developer in Bay Area is around $140,000 per year plus benefits (100% of health/dental/vision insurance, stock, etc). If you post a job at that price point you will attract qualified applicants.

[slapshot]

Bingo. The US should not have to rely on visa programs to fill its technical job positions.

I wonder who has a harder time finding a job, someone with a liberal arts degree or someone with a "STEM" degree?

Unfortunately, unless the $$ incentives were very large, this isn't going to pursuade many US kids to go into the sciences. Besides, since when did teens (ie, newly independent college Freshmen) do anything their mom or dad wanted them to do...?

If I were to take a survey of most of my US born kids in my engineering classes, most are there because: (1) They did well in math and science in HS and (2) They like it...call it the "nerd" factor. I suspect (but that may be changing) that many are there because they think they can get a job after graduation....those that are, I bet it's a secondary reason.

Even those that start out in engineering, but are not truely commited, find the riggor of the curriculum often puts a serious damper on their college fun....and soon change majors.

Much like Asian families that have a long tradition of sending their kids off to be engineers, etc....it will take some major social changes before non-Asian US kids choose engineering/math/science in large numbers. The only exception to that right now would be the biological sciences, where woman are commonly attracted to that career path.