People with common sense post on this OPEN MIKE

[a_ponderer]

Originally Posted by johman

I wish you well in your recovery... and I do hope your sons are able to secure for themselves the insurance they need to protect them from the unfairness that life sometimes showers upon us. Let's just hope they remain healthy...

Thank you, johman for your well-wishes. As a matter of fact, my older son has not been so lucky, healthwise. Because of his choice to obtain health insurance some years ago he was covered when his kidneys failed about ten years ago and he had to go on dialysis until he received a kidney transplant. Today he is doing great.

And regarding my earlier comment of "poor choices," I often wonder if some of those who say they can't afford health insurance are chosing to spend their money on cigarettes, booze, or illegal drugs, rather than on health insurance...

[a_ponderer]

Originally Posted by jadedsue

i want to know, what is this "luxury or high end insurance" (i cant remember the terminology) that this bill speaks of?

I don't know. Perhaps you'll have to read the bill(s) to find out...

[Wizard777]

Originally Posted by Oriole-Bob

I usually delete these emails along with the one's from my long lost Nigerian Uncle.

When the Amir gets my wire tranfer. I will own Dubai. There is going to be a crowning ceremony and everything. I can hardly wait.

[Wizard777]

The bill passed and I'm still waiting on my crown.

[johman]

Originally Posted by a_ponderer

Thank you, johman for your well-wishes. As a matter of fact, my older son has not been so lucky, healthwise. Because of his choice to obtain health insurance some years ago he was covered when his kidneys failed about ten years ago and he had to go on dialysis until he received a kidney transplant. Today he is doing great.

And regarding my earlier comment of "poor choices," I often wonder if some of those who say they can't afford health insurance are chosing to spend their money on cigarettes, booze, or illegal drugs, rather than on health insurance...

I'm sure some are spending their available money unwisely. Of course I happen to know for a fact, that some parents of children are barely scraping by on their income paying for rent, food, electricity, auto insurance and the needs of a child abandoned by a father who has not offered a penny of child support of any manner for over six years. How might I know this for certain? Because I am the grandfather of that child paying for her health care insurance among other things.

[zenwalk]

Originally Posted by Wizard777

The bill passed and I'm still waiting on my crown.

Don't think it covers dental. :>}

[Wizard777]

Originally Posted by zenwalk

Don't think it covers dental. :>}

I still have all my own teeth. So I don't need dental. No seriously! Because a dentist didn't have a damned thing to do with that. I'll give the credit for that to Marijuana and cotton mouth long before I give any credit to dentists I avoid like the plague.

[Dee Lightner]

Originally Posted by Slapperhead

Maybe we’re reading two different threads. Who is arguing THIS? I don’t see anyone saying that we don’t need health care reform and that we shouldn’t be finding ways to cover ALL Americans? I do see people disagreeing on how we get there though. I personally don’t see folks being nervous about the Government running anything being all THAT out of line. Other folks don’t seem to mind. That’s what makes this country great IMHO.

But once again I will say, if this exact same plan was being proposed by Republicans, I wonder how many folks would jump to the other side of the fence?

I guess what I see on TV, that so many of those interviewed on the news, don't want two things. first, they don't want the government to run health care. Second, they want affordable coverage, but they mean coverage for those who can "afford" to pay, and too bad for those who cannot. Of course, maybe the news folks only interview those who have those opinions.

as if all who cannot afford to pay are bad people.
sorry, but I just do not understand that, especially as so many of those who cannot pay are our Senior Citizens, who worked hard all their lives but are living on very low incomes.

I still think that if we took the insurance companies out of the loop, true HEALTH CARE could be available to everyone at a cost saving.

[a_ponderer]

Originally Posted by Dee Lightner

I still think that if we took the insurance companies out of the loop, true HEALTH CARE could be available to everyone at a cost saving.

On what facts do you base your opinion?

Rather than speculate, how about trying to answer the question?

Originally Posted by a_ponderer

Once again... What is the typical profit margin of the health insurance companies? 10%? 20%? 30%? 50%?

[and what is the profit margin of a typical non-health related business?]

[saxman]

"Not a single Congressman or Senator has come on teevee and said what is actually in the Bill ... the guts of it. In all their going back and forth none mention anything of substance. I recall one Senator complaining about the "wording" yet he never said what the "wording" was that gave him concern ... no quotes, no particulars, nothing."

This description of the elected officials on TV sounds a great deal like OM. I have read every post on this lengthy thread, and there is not a single quote from the language of the bill, in defense of any opinion or position taken by any poster on here.

A passage from RA Heinlein comes to mind: "What are the facts? Again and again and again--what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine relevation, forget what "the stars foretell", avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history" --what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!"

I have seen no facts, therefore I have no basis on which to form an opinion about this specific piece of legislation. I do hold the opinion however, that health care reform is not what is needed. I believe what is needed is insurance reform. I further believe the need for insurance reform transcends the rather narrow scope of health care, and extends to automobile insurance, Social Security Insurance, life insurance, bank deposit insurance. postal insurance, homeowner's insurance, mortgage insurance, and every other form of insurance in this country. I do not know, but I strongly suspect we are, as a nation one of the most "insurance poor" on this planet. I also have some suspicions about why that is, but that is a topic for an entirely different discussion.

So, to reiterate my main point: Many people on this thread seem to be adamantly in favor of, or adamantly opposed to the proposed healthcare legislation. Why? What are the facts?

[workerbee]

Received one of "those" e-mails today and I have no idea if any of this is true, but may be food for thought. Contained in the HR bill is below.

• Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan.
If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
• Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

[Slapperhead]

Originally Posted by saxman

"Not a single Congressman or Senator has come on teevee and said what is actually in the Bill ... the guts of it. In all their going back and forth none mention anything of substance. I recall one Senator complaining about the "wording" yet he never said what the "wording" was that gave him concern ... no quotes, no particulars, nothing."

This description of the elected officials on TV sounds a great deal like OM. I have read every post on this lengthy thread, and there is not a single quote from the language of the bill, in defense of any opinion or position taken by any poster on here.

A passage from RA Heinlein comes to mind: "What are the facts? Again and again and again--what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine relevation, forget what "the stars foretell", avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history" --what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!"

I have seen no facts, therefore I have no basis on which to form an opinion about this specific piece of legislation. I do hold the opinion however, that health care reform is not what is needed. I believe what is needed is insurance reform. I further believe the need for insurance reform transcends the rather narrow scope of health care, and extends to automobile insurance, Social Security Insurance, life insurance, bank deposit insurance. postal insurance, homeowner's insurance, mortgage insurance, and every other form of insurance in this country. I do not know, but I strongly suspect we are, as a nation one of the most "insurance poor" on this planet. I also have some suspicions about why that is, but that is a topic for an entirely different discussion.

So, to reiterate my main point: Many people on this thread seem to be adamantly in favor of, or adamantly opposed to the proposed healthcare legislation. Why? What are the facts?

So let me get this right. You post a response that seems to poke fun at folks for not posting facts along with their opinions, and then you do exactly the same thing?

[Gigi]

Originally Posted by workerbee

Received one of "those" e-mails today and I have no idea if any of this is true, but may be food for thought. Contained in the HR bill is below.

I call shenanigans on that e-mail. For example, "Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN" is ridiculous. Community-based home medical services usually means that people are given the means to stay in their homes rather than go to nursing homes, which is generally a win-win for both the patient and the taxpayer who would fund the much-costlier nursing home care. What would that have to do with ACORN?