I actually am beginning to agree with dude

[Far from home]

Originally Posted by hampden623

I just dont see how you can state this as some form of fact.

Fine if that's your opinion, I just don't see it that way. Andy has proven he's resourceful and patient. Not only in the trade of Beddard, but the non trade of Roberts...

You are making alot of assumptions and carrying them over to fact. ....Which in turn has you irritated I might add. I'll wait and see. Obviously we both hope Andy pulls something off this offseason FFH, thats suprises us in a good way... (at least i THINK we both hope that )

Who is your #1 targeted FA, and your #2 FA target BTW?

Honestly, I would go after Webb and/or Bedard, and maybe Holliday.

Then, I would package Reimold or Pie in a deal for AGon.

[hampden623]

Originally Posted by Far from home

Honestly, I would go after Webb and/or Bedard, and maybe Holliday.

Then, I would package Reimold or Pie in a deal for AGon.

I agree on Bedard.

The problem with acquiring Bay or Holliday, is that you instantly put yourself in a pinch with Reimold. I agree you trade him at that point, but all teams are well aware you need to unload him. ...I just saying.

I still sign Bay, and worry about Reimold (or Pie) later

[WaccoForFalco]

If im the Os and Webb hits F.A im hoping all over that, wont be to expensive and is a top 5 pitcher in this league when healthy.

[helloharv]

What exactly are you starting to agree with dude about?

[NotBobEucker]

Originally Posted by Far from home

He's said he's not willing to get into a bidding war...
He's already blocking trading any of his pitchers.
He's already said he doesn't want to buy starters (something I mostly agree with).
I like a lot of the players with the team right now...but it's not enough.

BINGO AND RIGHT ON!!!!!!!

[helloharv]

Originally Posted by Far from home

I've been arguing for a while with dude about the direction of the team.
I truly felt that the O's were doing the right thing at the time, and still think that they did, but this is getting ridiculous.

Angelos is a horrible owner.
The guy cuts corners everywhere he can.
They're talking about the team not being able to get enough fields in Sarasota.
They can't keep a lot of their players.
They have an opportunity to take some risks and pick up some great players to fill out and improve the roster, and they are balking at everything they could do.

AM in my mind has made some great trades so far to pick up young talent to fill up the minors.
All of that promise, with the exception of a few, is now in the majors.

What does that mean?
It's time.
Enough money has been saved with the trimming of the roster.
Get the free agents that will shore up the roster.
Make the trades that will shore up the roster.
This is the opportunity.
Putting good vets in place will give the young guys some wiggle room to make mistakes and grow. Look at guys like Pedroia and Cano - you put them in a good lineup, it gives the players the opportunity to excel.

According to Roch, Bill James projects:
Reimold .292/29/84
Wieters .311/20/92
Nick .300/21/103
AJ .284/22/83
BRob .281/12/65

You pop in AGon and Beltre in that lineup, it becomes one of the better lineups in baseball.

Bergesen 10-9/4.18
Guthrie 12-12/4.38

If you push those two guys to 3-5, with Matusz and at least 1 good FA pitcher, then you have pretty good pitching staff.


.....and you're still under 90 million on the payroll.
....and you're exponentially increasing revenue.
...and we all know the owner's cheap, but this is simple economics.
..and more simple economics, if he paid for minor upgrades, he would make the players happier, and they would be more willing to return to the team (maybe even at cheaper prices).

I have been saying this for a long time

What exactly are you starting to agree with dude about?

[Far from home]

Originally Posted by helloharv

I have been saying this for a long time

What exactly are you starting to agree with dude about?

His position on O's FO approach.

From the aspect of rebuilding, he did things the right way.
From the aspect of changing gears to making the team competitive again, he's not starting off with the right outlook.
The team needed to be gutted and rebuilt, and common sense needed to be injected.
He did that.

Now, when it's time to start pulling the trigger, he's indicating he will be taking the wait-and-see approach, which is a waste of time and won't get you anywhere.
This is the time to be intelligently aggressive.
Pick targets that will improve the team and go after them full tilt.

Yes, the FA period hasn't started, but the comments that he made before the off season as far as his approach basically showed a willingness to prepare the fanbase for a listless free agency period.

[Far from home]

Originally Posted by hampden623

I agree on Bedard.

The problem with acquiring Bay or Holliday, is that you instantly put yourself in a pinch with Reimold. I agree you trade him at that point, but all teams are well aware you need to unload him. ...I just saying.

I still sign Bay, and worry about Reimold (or Pie) later

Sort of.
Really what happens if you pick one of those guys up is that you set up the possibility of putting the others in at DH.
If you pick up both AGon and Bay/Holliday, you are looking at one of the best and most balanced lineups in baseball.

BRob
Nick
Holliday/Bay
AGon
AJ
Wieters
Reimold
Beltre?
Izturis

You have the potential for a lineup with 8 hitters w/20 or more homers and you're probably only looking at 20-25 mil increase in payroll, least for next year.
If you sign AGon long term, you're looking at a 35 - putting the team at 65 ish, then you sign bedard probably at 10, and Webb to an incentive-laden deal, and you suddenly have a top contender.

I understand the idea that they have to want to come to the O's, but that's where enthusiasm wins you points.

[hampden623]

Originally Posted by Far from home

Sort of.
Really what happens if you pick one of those guys up is that you set up the possibility of putting the others in at DH.
If you pick up both AGon and Bay/Holliday, you are looking at one of the best and most balanced lineups in baseball.

BRob
Nick
Holliday/Bay
AGon
AJ
Wieters
Reimold
Beltre?
Izturis

You have the potential for a lineup with 8 hitters w/20 or more homers and you're probably only looking at 20-25 mil increase in payroll, least for next year.
If you sign AGon long term, you're looking at a 35 - putting the team at 65 ish, then you sign bedard probably at 10, and Webb to an incentive-laden deal, and you suddenly have a top contender.

I understand the idea that they have to want to come to the O's, but that's where enthusiasm wins you points.

Well, lets put it this way... I have no problem with that being the outcome of this offseason ... how could I?

Gonzalez is not getting traded this offseason IMO though. And I might not like what (at least in my mind) what we would ultimately need to give up to get him.

[helloharv]

I like what Far from Home is saying but think we have a .00001 chance of seing it happen here in Baltimore.....

If only Andy would realize that Spending Money ...helps Make Money !

As of Right now....why should anyone go purchase a new 13 game season ticket plan ?

[keephopealive]

Originally Posted by hampden623

Well, lets put it this way... I have no problem with that being the outcome of this offseason ... how could I?

Gonzalez is not getting traded this offseason IMO though. And I might not like what (at least in my mind) what we would ultimately need to give up to get him.

exactly..i wish cats around here would be a bit more patient with our young guys..we could end up giving more for less..

[hampden623]

Originally Posted by keephopealive

exactly..i wish cats around here would be a bit more patient with our young guys..we could end up giving more for less..

Patience is now out the window.

[UTAH RAVEN]

The sad fact for the birds is no fee agent will come to Baltimore.

[ICURMT]

Easy as 1-2-3

1 - buy the Phils
2 - Swap rosters
3 - Get a closer

poof!

[Young Oldtimer]

Originally Posted by WaccoForFalco

If im the Os and Webb hits F.A im hoping all over that, wont be to expensive and is a top 5 pitcher in this league when healthy.

Moot point now: Arizona picked up their option on Webb yesterday.

(and the Dodgers have decided to keep Manny around for another year per Fox Sports)

[jamesdean]

I know it's easy to label MacPhail as a cheap, conservative GM who will drag his feet and never really raise this team to a respectable level, but one important element I think everyone forgets to consider is the owner himself. There isn't a single, important decision MacPhail has or will make without Angelos being an integral part of it. And anyone who thinks otherwise is really just kidding themselves. MacPhail will spend the amount of money Angelos wants him to spend. No more, no less. You don't have to sit down and have a personal conversation with the two of them to deduce that much. How do we know that MacPhail hasn't already presented fairly radical ideas of change to Angelos and he shot them down? Do you think he's going to talk to the Sun's sports writers and complain? Pat Gillick left town without saying much but it doesn't take a genius to realize he wasn't happy with not being able to do what he felt was best for the team. This is the core of the problem and always has been. Angelos will let MacPhail develop the farm system and hope these young pitchers are the real deal, but if you think he's going to open up his checkbook, hand over his pen and say, "sign away", you might as well greet Santa Claus coming down your chimney in another month.

[dude]

Originally Posted by jamesdean

How do we know that MacPhail hasn't already presented fairly radical ideas of change to Angelos and he shot them down?

My guess (then and now) is that MacPhail was in agreement with what was going to happen coming in.

He's never built a winning organiztion, so to hire him as "an architect of rebuilding" seems wrong. That's not to say he couldn't do it, but he certainly never has done it, with a LOT of opportunity in 2 organiztions.

What seemed obvious to me 2+ years ago and Ffh seems to be picking up on now (Ffm, btw, it doesn't mean you hate MacPhail...see? ) is that MacPhail is more about buffering a non-impact offseason, that pursuing the options that enable winning.

People like to twist these words around, but he's making losing acceptable under the disguise of 'rebuilding'.
I'm not saying he's trying to lose, I'm sure he'd love to win, Angleos too, but they are simply creating a low standard that placates many of the fans.....fans that weren't happy before 'rebuilding'.

The real question is, when you can afford to do so much more, why aren't you doing it?

Either you don't know how to, or you don't want to.

I don't think the MacPhail-era player acquisitions (the tenure of faux-rebuilding) are important to winning in the future. They certainly could be part of winning in the future (I like Jones and Bell and Tillman), but the Orioles could easily have a winning team in 2010 or 2011 and beyond without those guys.

I am not judging the offseason yet...let me say that again...
I am not judging the offseason yet
I have an opinion of what will happen (or more correctly, won't happen) and the current team and many of MacPhail's words would line up with my opinion, but the offseason will unfold and we really need to evaluate the opportunity of 2010 after those moves are (or aren't) made, so, as I have in every year, I wait and hope I'm not disappointed as I've been pretty much every offseason for a decade (2004 was OK), especially the last 2.

Go O's.

[Far from home]

Originally Posted by dude

My guess (then and now) is that MacPhail was in agreement with what was going to happen coming in.

He's never built a winning organiztion, so to hire him as "an architect of rebuilding" seems wrong. That's not to say he couldn't do it, but he certainly never has done it, with a LOT of opportunity in 2 organiztions.

What seemed obvious to me 2+ years ago and Ffh seems to be picking up on now (Ffm, btw, it doesn't mean you hate MacPhail...see? ) is that MacPhail is more about buffering a non-impact offseason, that pursuing the options that enable winning.

People like to twist these words around, but he's making losing acceptable under the disguise of 'rebuilding'.
I'm not saying he's trying to lose, I'm sure he'd love to win, Angleos too, but they are simply creating a low standard that placates many of the fans.....fans that weren't happy before 'rebuilding'.

The real question is, when you can afford to do so much more, why aren't you doing it?

Either you don't know how to, or you don't want to.

I don't think the MacPhail-era player acquisitions (the tenure of faux-rebuilding) are important to winning in the future. They certainly could be part of winning in the future (I like Jones and Bell and Tillman), but the Orioles could easily have a winning team in 2010 or 2011 and beyond without those guys.

I am not judging the offseason yet...let me say that again...
I am not judging the offseason yet
I have an opinion of what will happen (or more correctly, won't happen) and the current team and many of MacPhail's words would line up with my opinion, but the offseason will unfold and we really need to evaluate the opportunity of 2010 after those moves are (or aren't) made, so, as I have in every year, I wait and hope I'm not disappointed as I've been pretty much every offseason for a decade (2004 was OK), especially the last 2.

Go O's.

I'm not saying that AM didn't make a lot of good moves for the team in the last couple of years - but it's time to stand up and act like you want the team to start winning next year.

I disagree with taking the stance that AM has publicly taken.

Even if he privately wants to do that, he doesn't have to come out and publicly say it.
Just acting this way will drive other GMs and top FAs away from the O's.