Ok, Yankees Win-That Does Not Mean We Need a Salary Cap

[OldSchoolOrioleFan]

I have written before about how regional realignment is the solution and not a salary cap. Put the Orioles in a division with the Yankees, Mets, Phillies and Red Sox or in a division with the Nationals, Indians, Reds and Pirates-either one works. The Biz of Baseball has a great article just posted that explains that just because the dreaded Yankees have won their 27th Championship does not mean we need a cap. Here is the link:

http://bizofbaseball.com/index.php?o...id=39#comments

Enjoy the light read. He makes some really great points.

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Orioles Fan

[kudzu]

Originally Posted by OldSchoolOrioleFan

Put the Orioles in a division with the Yankees, Mets, Phillies and Red Sox or in a division with the Nationals, Indians, Reds and Pirates-either one works.

Ok, that makes zero sense.

I can see how someone could argue that the O's should be in a division with the haves OR the have nots. But not both at the same time.

[OldSchoolOrioleFan]

Originally Posted by kudzu

Ok, that makes zero sense.

I can see how someone could argue that the O's should be in a division with the haves OR the have nots. But not both at the same time.

Let me explain. The point is to make the road more difficult for the big boys-the Yankees and Red Sox. If they have to play the Phillies and the Mets 18 times each then the Yankees would not kill everybody.

Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Phillies. All in the same division, all are in big markets. Even with the Orioles or Blue Jays (I remember in the post I started about a month ago, some did not want the Orioles in the same division with the Red Sox or Yankees and some did) in that same division, the Yankees and Red Sox are not off the hook- they each would have 54 games against the Red Sox, Phillies and Mets. And another 18 against the Orioles or Blue Jays. No team in that division, any way you look at it, would win 100 games. If this division was in place during the 2008 offseason, CC, AJ and Tex would have likely all signed on different teams in that same division.

Now to your point, objectively, it should be the Orioles in that division instead of the Blue Jays. Toronto is a much smaller market than Baltimore. As you can see below, Baltimore is ranked 17th and Toronto ranked 23rd.

Courtesy: Biz of Baseball

Forbes Valuations for the 30 Clubs in Major League Baseball

http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.p...per&Itemid=126

The following is a listing of the ranking and valuation of the 30 clubs in MLB as estimated by Forbes.

2009

Issued on 4/22/2009

Rank Team
1 New York Yankees
2 New York Mets
3 Boston Red Sox
4 Los Angeles Dodgers
5 Chicago Cubs
6 Los Angeles Angels
7 Philadelphia Phillies
8 St Louis Cardinals
9 San Francisco Giants
10 Chicago White Sox
11 Atlanta Braves
12 Houston Astros
13 Seattle Mariners
14 Washington Nationals
15 Texas Rangers
16 San Diego Padres
17 Baltimore Orioles
18 Cleveland Indians
19 Arizona Diamondbacks
20 Colorado Rockies
21 Detroit Tigers
22 Minnesota Twins
23 Toronto Blue Jays
24 Milwaukee Brewers
25 Cincinnati Reds
26 Tampa Bay Rays
27 Oakland Athletics
28 Kansas City Royals
29 Pittsburgh Pirates
30 Florida Marlins

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Orioles Fan

[kudzu]

Originally Posted by OldSchoolOrioleFan

Let me explain.

It still makes zero sense.

I can see (while not necessarily agreeing with) one arguing the point that the O's belong with ethier the big boys or the welfare league.

But you seem to be arguing both points, at the same time.

For what it's worth, Toronto is a much bigger market than Baltimore. 2.5 mill in the city itself, and 5.5 mill in the metro area.

[bgfield]

I don't see how this would solve the problem. At all.

You're basically saying "we acknowledge one team is going to be better than others, so we're just going to make it harder for them to win."

How about we instead try to put everybody on an even playing field?

[cb coach]

Originally Posted by OldSchoolOrioleFan

I have written before about how regional realignment is the solution and not a salary cap. Put the Orioles in a division with the Yankees, Mets, Phillies and Red Sox or in a division with the Nationals, Indians, Reds and Pirates-either one works. The Biz of Baseball has a great article just posted that explains that just because the dreaded Yankees have won their 27th Championship does not mean we need a cap. Here is the link:

http://bizofbaseball.com/index.php?o...id=39#comments

Enjoy the light read. He makes some really great points.

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Orioles Fan

Actually you are referring to the radical realignment that Selig laid out in the 1990's, when there was expansion. It was given the boot then, it was one of the driving forces on why Selig was able to shift the Brewers to the NL, that was what he wanted. There was no balance the divisions were AL8 8 NL7 7and really would have given the AL two less chances for the clubs, but IMO this would be a bad idea. I think they need to address how they schedule not this. Also I think that the schedule should be looked at based by record if they keep the AL and NL playing each other..... I do not know if it is worth messing with, just do away with interleague.

[trademarkakis]

If this division was in place during the 2008 offseason, CC, AJ and Tex would have likely all signed on different teams in that same division.

What makes you say that? The yankees would have still outbid everyone (like they did) and all 3 players would have signed with the yankees?

As far as the article in the link you provided goes, I don't see how he makes any good points. This year, more than any other, has shown that major league baseball is a complete joke. This world series was bought and paid for. Everyone knew in April who would win. Steinbrenner couldn't compete on an even playing field and MLB doesn't want to see the yankees finish in last place. A salary cap would kill the yankees, but it would make baseball worth watching.

[OldSchoolOrioleFan]

Originally Posted by kudzu

It still makes zero sense.

I can see (while not necessarily agreeing with) one arguing the point that the O's belong with ethier the big boys or the welfare league.

But you seem to be arguing both points, at the same time.

For what it's worth, Toronto is a much bigger market than Baltimore. 2.5 mill in the city itself, and 5.5 mill in the metro area.

Okay. I agree that I am arguing both point. I agree that Baltimore is a smaller city. I was just using the Forbes valuation-I should have said that the Orioles are a bigger revenue team.

So to pick one scenario, I pick the one with the Orioles in the same division with the Yanks, Sox, Mets and Phillies.

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Oriole Fan

[kudzu]

Originally Posted by OldSchoolOrioleFan

I should have said that the Orioles are a bigger revenue team.

$174 mill to $172 mill, according to Forbes.

That's, um, pretty much the same in my book.

Both used to be "big market" teams, but then they blew it.

[NCBirdfan]

After reading the article you convinced me that a salary cap is needed.

[OldSchoolOrioleFan]

Originally Posted by bgfield

I don't see how this would solve the problem. At all.

You're basically saying "we acknowledge one team is going to be better than others, so we're just going to make it harder for them to win."

How about we instead try to put everybody on an even playing field?

Well, life is not fair. I do not really care if the Yankees spend $200 million or more. My point is two fold.

1) Regional Realignment is better for the game because you put teams in the same division that are near each other. Examples: Baltimore and Philadelphia. Why are they not in the same division? Reds and Indians. Why are they not in the same division. Mets and Yankees. Why are they not in the same division. To me, those natural rivarlies would be really exciting for the game.

2) Teams in the same region have the same resources. The Mets are in the same market with the Yankees so they can spend with them if they market the team correctly. Reds and Indians are in a similar market so they should compete with one another. It makes fiscal sense.

Life is not fair. I am suggestion something that makes sense and would not take a strike or lockout to achieve. Actually my concept would likely make MLB more money. I realize I am in the minority with this concept and that is okay.

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Orioles Fan

[NY_O'sfan]

I see your entry down below the article:
"As an Oriole fan, if and when the Orioles get really good, I would hate for the front office to have to trade players and let them walk via free agency because of an artificial cap...."

I sure hope you aren't awake all night worrying about that scenario......

[OldSchoolOrioleFan]

Originally Posted by cb coach

Actually you are referring to the radical realignment that Selig laid out in the 1990's, when there was expansion. It was given the boot then, it was one of the driving forces on why Selig was able to shift the Brewers to the NL, that was what he wanted. There was no balance the divisions were AL8 8 NL7 7and really would have given the AL two less chances for the clubs, but IMO this would be a bad idea. I think they need to address how they schedule not this. Also I think that the schedule should be looked at based by record if they keep the AL and NL playing each other..... I do not know if it is worth messing with, just do away with interleague.

If Bud Selig brought this up before, maybe he will bring it up again. Back then, I was against radical realignment. Things are much different now. The owners are likely to support his idea 15 years removed and with the entities like the YES network and MLB network.

I also am against interleague play; however, a limited version is needed with regional realignment because 15 teams in each league needs all 30 teams playing each other all the time. Good point.

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Orioles Fan

[OldSchoolOrioleFan]

Originally Posted by trademarkakis

If this division was in place during the 2008 offseason, CC, AJ and Tex would have likely all signed on different teams in that same division.

What makes you say that? The yankees would have still outbid everyone (like they did) and all 3 players would have signed with the yankees?

As far as the article in the link you provided goes, I don't see how he makes any good points. This year, more than any other, has shown that major league baseball is a complete joke. This world series was bought and paid for. Everyone knew in April who would win. Steinbrenner couldn't compete on an even playing field and MLB doesn't want to see the yankees finish in last place. A salary cap would kill the yankees, but it would make baseball worth watching.

You are right-there is no way to know what would have happened. For the sake of discussion, C.C. signs with the Yankees first. Who is to say that the Mets do not then sign A.J. Why not have Johan and A.J. atop the rotation. The Mets know they have to get past the Yankees and can not afford them to get both players. Now maybe the Yanks still get Tex. Who knows.

Here is the point. The entire dynamic changes when the Yankees are going head to head with more than just the Sox. The Mets and Phillies would compete right there with them.

A salary cap would kill baseball. Look at the Orioles. Think about 2011 when Matusz, Bergy, Roberts, Markakis, Roberts, Reimold, Weiters, Bell, Snyder, Arrietta, and others hit there stride and they start making the playoffs, I would hate it if MLB says now trade two or three of those players because of some artifical cap. If the Orioles put together the makings of a dynasty-working real hard at a good nucleus, that should not be broken up for the sake of a salary cap. Baseball decisions, good or bad, should determine which players a team keeps.

Also, like it or not, money does not win championships, good organizations do. If money won championships, then what about the Mets, Dodgers and Cubs and other teams that spend money. The Yanks have made good baseball decisions with the resources they have and I do not fault them for that.

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Orioles Fan

[OldSchoolOrioleFan]

Originally Posted by kudzu

$174 mill to $172 mill, according to Forbes.

That's, um, pretty much the same in my book.

Both used to be "big market" teams, but then they blew it.

I agree. So because they are so similar, it is clear that because of proximity, the Orioles should be in with the Phillies, Mets, Yanks and Sox. Wow-I would love that division. Adding rivarly with the Phillies and Mets. Man, that would be fun.

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Orioles Fan

[simonsez]

Originally Posted by OldSchoolOrioleFan

Well, life is not fair. I do not really care if the Yankees spend $200 million or more. My point is two fold.

1) Regional Realignment is better for the game because you put teams in the same division that are near each other. Examples: Baltimore and Philadelphia. Why are they not in the same division? Reds and Indians. Why are they not in the same division. Mets and Yankees. Why are they not in the same division. To me, those natural rivarlies would be really exciting for the game.

2) Teams in the same region have the same resources. The Mets are in the same market with the Yankees so they can spend with them if they market the team correctly. Reds and Indians are in a similar market so they should compete with one another. It makes fiscal sense.

Life is not fair. I am suggestion something that makes sense and would not take a strike or lockout to achieve. Actually my concept would likely make MLB more money. I realize I am in the minority with this concept and that is okay.

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Orioles Fan

Are you serious? Being in the same " region" doesn't mean anything. We would need to share their TV coverage and share totally in their tv revenue!! Trying to find a solution to make "MLB more money" is exactly what got us into this mess. The players union and many owners don't want a cap for a variety of reasons. Player's reasons are obvious. Many owners in other AL divisions and the NL can make enough money from current revenue sharing to survive. Angelos can do the same as long as he has the Yankees and Red Sox fans filling the park with the unbalanced schedule. He probably would love 10 or 15 more games. What does he care that the fans are embararassed? He's making money. The BIG LOSERS in this are the Oriole Fans.
The only way the Orioles will be able to compete will be: a salary cap ( a drastic change in attitude of owners needed as well as a likely players strike); put 3 more teams in the NYC metro area (yes three) as well as another in the Boston and LA areas; or move the O's to the NL.

[simonsez]

Originally Posted by OldSchoolOrioleFan

I agree. So because they are so similar, it is clear that because of proximity, the Orioles should be in with the Phillies, Mets, Yanks and Sox. Wow-I would love that division. Adding rivarly with the Phillies and Mets. Man, that would be fun.

God bless,

M.T.P.
Northern VA Orioles Fan

Fun for who? You must either be a masochist or you've been out of the country for the past 11 years. I can't recall the last time I've read such nonsense about baseball.

[mdrunning]

Two of Brown's proposals, a slotted draft system and a stiffer luxury tax, are easier said than done because both would need approval from the union. Since free agent compensation potentially affects the value of free agents in the open market, the union has a say in how the draft is conducted. A likely compromise would be doing away with compensation, but that could set the small markets back even further if star players can walk and they receive nothing in return. Either that or they'll be dumping players ever more frequently so as to at least receive something in trade before their players become eligible for free agency.

A more draconian luxury tax would be interpreted by the players as nothing more than a de facto salary cap and therefore isn't likely to be looked upon favorably. While it's true that luxury tax money is not distributed to the clubs, its desired effect (for the owners) would be to tamp down salaries at the top of the pecking order and have everyone's else's pay move down accordingly. The players aren't going to be willing to foot the entire bill for competitive balance.

[cb coach]

Originally Posted by simonsez

Are you serious? Being in the same " region" doesn't mean anything. We would need to share their TV coverage and share totally in their tv revenue!! Trying to find a solution to make "MLB more money" is exactly what got us into this mess. The players union and many owners don't want a cap for a variety of reasons. Player's reasons are obvious. Many owners in other AL divisions and the NL can make enough money from current revenue sharing to survive. Angelos can do the same as long as he has the Yankees and Red Sox fans filling the park with the unbalanced schedule. He probably would love 10 or 15 more games. What does he care that the fans are embararassed? He's making money. The BIG LOSERS in this are the Oriole Fans.
The only way the Orioles will be able to compete will be: a salary cap ( a drastic change in attitude of owners needed as well as a likely players strike); put 3 more teams in the NYC metro area (yes three) as well as another in the Boston and LA areas; or move the O's to the NL.

Hey Bud worked hard to get that through it almost made it then was shot down. In reality, baseball was a regional game until the moves of the Dodgers Braves and Giants. If you look back in history you can clearly see that. I remember seeing an old map with all the pin points, but when the Orioles in 1954 came here and Washington were the furthest southern teams in the East. Selig was trying to form regional competition, easier travel arrangements and get the Brewers to the NL Central, the Brewers went to the NL and the rest was kicked out. The expansion caused challenges for Selig, he really wanted to make it work and here is a great link that will tell the tale that I just found. http://www.andromedan.com/linda/realign.htm
and this
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BASEBA...TS)-a083877622

[Young Oldtimer]

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth on this for what it's worth which is probably little.

From a competitive standpoint, I began a thread (A Scheduling Discussion) right after the 2009 regular season ended by putting the Orioles in the AL Central or AL West with both balanced and unbalanced schedules and determined in a very basic way that the Orioles would not have had a significantly better record.

One reason that baseball doesn't put the Mets and Yankees in the same division used to be that it allowed fans in a particular area to see both leagues. Of course with interleague play this has become less of an issue, not that it was all that big a problem as most teams are within a 4 hour drive or so for the true diehard fan to see the other league. Seattle, Arizona, Colorado, Toronto, Atlanta, and Minnesota are the only franchises further away than that from an opposing league city. Four hours is certainly a doable distance for a weekend series if you truly wanted to see the other league play. Interleague play has ruined the allure of the All-Star game and in my opinion has also hurt the World Series.

Personally, I want to see the Orioles field competitive team management first before I worry about things like salary caps, revenue sharing, etc. There are definitely problems with the current system, but the Orioles recent mismanagement has been a much bigger problem than what division they are in or what their revenue stream is.