Winners develop their own talent

[Pickle20]

I see a lot of people advocating that the Orioles spend a ton of money this year, and some people even want to see guys like Josh Bell and Brandon Snyder blocked. Signing a couple of FA SP's would also block some very good pitching prospects of our own, too.

Take a look around at the winning teams in 2009. They mostly developed their own talent and then kept that talent when they became FA's.

The only exception of course, is New York, who signed the 3 best free agents last year, and have repeatedly signed top FA's in the past. They still do occasionally produce a decent prospect, but it's nothing like their 1996 team when they had developed most of the talent on their team from the minors.

The Orioles are developing their own talent.

Now, I will say that 2010 is about more than just giving guys a chance to play, W-L record be damned. That is far from the truth. 2010 is very much about wins and losses. It's about putting together the talent we have in the system and building an actual TEAM that can compete night in and night out.

It just bugs me to see people crying for AM and the O's to throw money at FA's. There is a plan in place. It might be moving slower than we like, but regardless of if it works or not, it is the correct way to go about becoming a winner.

Just look around at the good teams. The proof is on their rosters.

[Fan4life]

Originally Posted by Pickle20

I see a lot of people advocating that the Orioles spend a ton of money this year, and some people even want to see guys like Josh Bell and Brandon Snyder blocked. Signing a couple of FA SP's would also block some very good pitching prospects of our own, too.

Take a look around at the winning teams in 2009. They mostly developed their own talent and then kept that talent when they became FA's.

The only exception of course, is New York, who signed the 3 best free agents last year, and have repeatedly signed top FA's in the past. They still do occasionally produce a decent prospect, but it's nothing like their 1996 team when they had developed most of the talent on their team from the minors.

The Orioles are developing their own talent.

Now, I will say that 2010 is about more than just giving guys a chance to play, W-L record be damned. That is far from the truth. 2010 is very much about wins and losses. It's about putting together the talent we have in the system and building an actual TEAM that can compete night in and night out.

It just bugs me to see people crying for AM and the O's to throw money at FA's. There is a plan in place. It might be moving slower than we like, but regardless of if it works or not, it is the correct way to go about becoming a winner.

Just look around at the good teams. The proof is on their rosters.

I generally disagree with this except to say that it is possible to have a team that competes using primarily home grown players once every 4-6 years. It isn't possible to compete year-in and year-out or even 2 out of every 3 years primarily using home grown talent. As you get good your draft position gets worse. Unless you are extremely lucky, the talent you are bringing up to replace the current talent will not be as good and many of them perhaps not even make it. Generally speaking, less than 50% of first round picks in the draft make it to the ML and much less become everyday players. So you need to be picking in the top 10 every year to obtain the best amateur talent. Obviously at some point you become good, you pick later in the first round and every subsequent round.

The teams you use as an example really isn't fair, because all but 4-6 teams try to build winning teams from their Farm Systems. Most of them fail every year. And while most teams do try to lock up the really good amateur talent, they certainly cannot lockup an excessive amount of these types of players and so most of them will be lost to richer teams eventually.

[Pickle20]

Originally Posted by Fan4life

I generally disagree with this except to say that it is possible to have a team that competes using primarily home grown players once every 4-6 years. It isn't possible to compete year-in and year-out or even 2 out of every 3 years primarily using home grown talent. As you get good your draft position gets worse. Unless you are extremely lucky, the talent you are bringing up to replace the current talent will not be as good and many of them perhaps not even make it. Generally speaking, less than 50% of first round picks in the draft make it to the ML and much less become everyday players. So you need to be picking in the top 10 every year to obtain the best amateur talent. Obviously at some point you become good, you pick later in the first round and every subsequent round.

The teams you use as an example really isn't fair, because all but 4-6 teams try to build winning teams from their Farm Systems. Most of them fail every year. And while most teams do try to lock up the really good amateur talent, they certainly cannot lockup an excessive amount of these types of players and so most of them will be lost to richer teams eventually.

I think we are generally agreeing on the same thing.

I forgot to add that we should be looking to add FA's to our current core of homegrown talent. There is no reason we can't become the Angels or Phillies -- teams with big homegrown contingents, but with high payrolls because they sign a FA when they need one, and keep the talent they developed themselves.

So I am not saying we should be the Twins or Marlins, and solely rely on our homegrown talent to win. I am just saying that there has to be homegrown talent on your roster to win, and it makes sense to see if that core of talent is good enough before you spend millions of dollars signing free agents.

This is the plan MacPhail is following.

[Fan4life]

Originally Posted by Pickle20

I think we are generally agreeing on the same thing.

I forgot to add that we should be looking to add FA's to our current core of homegrown talent. There is no reason we can't become the Angels or Phillies -- teams with big homegrown contingents, but with high payrolls because they sign a FA when they need one, and keep the talent they developed themselves.

So I am not saying we should be the Twins or Marlins, and solely rely on our homegrown talent to win. I am just saying that there has to be homegrown talent on your roster to win, and it makes sense to see if that core of talent is good enough before you spend millions of dollars signing free agents.

This is the plan MacPhail is following.

Yep we agree. Then you have to look at timing. Is now the best time to spend money on a high cost FA or 2? Lackey is the only guy I would attempt to through $$$ at...

Next year you have Beckett and Halladay and a few others in FA.. but their cost will also be prohibitive.. in the 2011 offseason you have AGon, Fielder, Howard and Pujols all FA if they don't get resigned long term.

I think we're looking at 2012 before we can do any real damage. But I would like to see some moves make to keep it interesting until then...

[the Wiz]

Okay, so I guess we wait until 2013 to compete right? I mean, who are we developing at 2b? SS? RP? I guess you figure all of our SP prospects will pan out.

Where is all the unused player payroll money going? We arent putting it back into international players....so basically you are okay with Angelos pocketing all that unused money.

It seems you are also okay watching minor league baseball players out there learning on the field...all the while paying big league prices to attend these games.

[Fan4life]

Originally Posted by the Wiz

Okay, so I guess we wait until 2013 to compete right? I mean, who are we developing at 2b? SS? RP?

Where is all the unused player payroll money going? We arent putting it back into international players....so basically you are okay with Angelos pocketing all that unused money.

It seems you are also okay watching minor league baseball players out there learning on the field...all the while paying big league prices to attend these games.

Not sure who you are addressing, but my thoughts are that we should add players when and where we can. Lackey is the only FA this off season I would attempt to throw money at. In the trade area, I would look to obtain Brandon Wood from the Angels if they resign Figgins. He can play 3b this season and move to SS in 2011. I would try to trade for Vazquez or Zambrano, or sign Harden. If we trade Scott, adding Uggla would be good. And in any event I think we should try to sign Glaus whether that be for 3b or 1b.

[the Wiz]

Originally Posted by Fan4life

Not sure who you are addressing, but my thoughts are that we should add players when and where we can. Lackey is the only FA this off season I would attempt to throw money at. In the trade area, I would look to obtain Brandon Wood from the Angels if they resign Figgins. He can play 3b this season and move to SS in 2011. I would try to trade for Vazquez or Zambrano, or sign Harden. If we trade Scott, adding Uggla would be good. And in any event I think we should try to sign Glaus whether that be for 3b or 1b.

I was addressing the OP.

I can get behind the ideas in your post, but the OP was saying to not waste any money in Free agency, which is crazy in my opinion. Signing a Glaus or Beltre or Harden or Sheets, etc is necessary for this team I believe, especially if we want to at least be competitive while we are growing.

[Fan4life]

Originally Posted by the Wiz

I was addressing the OP.

I can get behind the ideas in your post, but the OP was saying to not waste any money in Free agency, which is crazy in my opinion. Signing a Glaus or Beltre or Harden or Sheets, etc is necessary for this team I believe, especially if we want to at least be competitive while we are growing.

I was confused because in his reponse to my post, I thought he basically agreed with our view.

[the Wiz]

Originally Posted by Fan4life

I was confused because in his reponse to my post, I thought he basically agreed with our view.

Well, I just read the original post and responded before reading his other one...

[louielouie]

Winners use all resources and avenues available. They do not limit themselves

[Ravens2006]

It's not just about signing FAs, I want them to try to add more proven ML talent by any and all means. Supplement your own products with quality players from outside the system.

The KEY players from the Red Sox 2004 champions were David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, Johnny Damon, Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, and Keith Foulke (and even Mark Bellhorn had a big season). None of them came up through the Red Sox system, but were acquired either via trade or FA.

Key players from the Yankees 2009 champions included Mark Teixeira, Alex Rodriguez, Johnny Damon, Nick Swisher, Hideki Matsui, C.C. Sabathia, and A.J. Burnett. None of them came up through the Yankees system. Pettite did, but had left the team, and was re-acquired via FA. Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Cano, and Joba are fine products, but they weren't winning a WS without all those other parts...

This is the reality of what the Orioles have to contend with...

[pitbull]

Originally Posted by Pickle20

I see a lot of people advocating that the Orioles spend a ton of money this year, and some people even want to see guys like Josh Bell and Brandon Snyder blocked.

???

No one is blocking anybody.

Snyder and Bell aren't ready.

[ravnfan4life]

Originally Posted by Pickle20

I see a lot of people advocating that the Orioles spend a ton of money this year, and some people even want to see guys like Josh Bell and Brandon Snyder blocked. Signing a couple of FA SP's would also block some very good pitching prospects of our own, too.

Take a look around at the winning teams in 2009. They mostly developed their own talent and then kept that talent when they became FA's.

The only exception of course, is New York, who signed the 3 best free agents last year, and have repeatedly signed top FA's in the past. They still do occasionally produce a decent prospect, but it's nothing like their 1996 team when they had developed most of the talent on their team from the minors.

The Orioles are developing their own talent.

Now, I will say that 2010 is about more than just giving guys a chance to play, W-L record be damned. That is far from the truth. 2010 is very much about wins and losses. It's about putting together the talent we have in the system and building an actual TEAM that can compete night in and night out.

It just bugs me to see people crying for AM and the O's to throw money at FA's. There is a plan in place. It might be moving slower than we like, but regardless of if it works or not, it is the correct way to go about becoming a winner.

Just look around at the good teams. The proof is on their rosters.

I have yet to see the O's develop any real talent(as far as position players are concerned). So far all they've produced are above average players like Roberts, Markakis, and Weiters, but nothing all that special. And now you're about them blocking a 1st baseman w/no power, and a 3rd baseman who probably needs at least another year in the minors? Where's all this talent you're referring to?
And BTW, they didn't develop Bell, they traded for him.

[helloharv]

Originally Posted by pitbull

???

No one is blocking anybody.

Snyder and Bell aren't ready.

Good point..... Also why not sign a few PROVEN players instead of praying that our guys all pan out and turn into All-Stars.

[cb coach]

Originally Posted by Pickle20

I see a lot of people advocating that the Orioles spend a ton of money this year, and some people even want to see guys like Josh Bell and Brandon Snyder blocked. Signing a couple of FA SP's would also block some very good pitching prospects of our own, too.

Take a look around at the winning teams in 2009. They mostly developed their own talent and then kept that talent when they became FA's.

The only exception of course, is New York, who signed the 3 best free agents last year, and have repeatedly signed top FA's in the past. They still do occasionally produce a decent prospect, but it's nothing like their 1996 team when they had developed most of the talent on their team from the minors.

The Orioles are developing their own talent.

Now, I will say that 2010 is about more than just giving guys a chance to play, W-L record be damned. That is far from the truth. 2010 is very much about wins and losses. It's about putting together the talent we have in the system and building an actual TEAM that can compete night in and night out.

It just bugs me to see people crying for AM and the O's to throw money at FA's. There is a plan in place. It might be moving slower than we like, but regardless of if it works or not, it is the correct way to go about becoming a winner.

Just look around at the good teams. The proof is on their rosters.

What rosters are you talking about?
I did look around at all the teams earlier in October and just like everyone else, they develop their own talent but sign the right free agents and make the right trades. The Angels are a perfect example, so are the Dodgers. Vlad and Manny, not to mention our own Sherrill. There has to be a mixture because you cannot build the whole team from within. The Phillies are the same, Cards, Boston? I do not see your point. I do not think you are looking deep.

Just for instance lets look at the Angels. The following were acquired outside the draft. Where the Angels did well was the drafting of pitchers.

The Angels acquired by trade
Figggins
Rivera
Izturis
Kazmir
The Angels acquired by free agency
Vlad
Hunter
Abreu
Matthews
Fuentes
Oliver
Bulger
Loux
Palmer
Amateur Free agent
Santana
Morales
Arredondo
Aybar
If the Orioles do not make some key free agent signings, how do expect them to win. If they do not hunt the foreign market what do you expect? Cannot make many trades, besides a few prospect pitchers what else do you have that people would want. Besides Bell, Snyder and Waring, not a whole lot of position players in the minors. I think they need to be smart about the off season, and they need to be aggressive but not foolish...

[helloharv]

In order to EVER make the playoffs again...we will have to finish ahead of NY or Bos ...those two teams spend money on Elite Talent Every year plus bring up their own talent..... How do you think we can pass them in the standings if we only do one of those things year in and year out?

[David]

Originally Posted by helloharv

In order to EVER make the playoffs again...we will have to finish ahead of NY or Bos ...those two teams spend money on Elite Talent Every year plus bring up their own talent..... How do you think we can pass them in the standings if we only do one of those things year in and year out?

It will never happen if the Steinys keep grabbing 3 top Players each year like in 2009 - Burnett, Sabathia, Teixeira. The Orioles are doomed for the forseeable future. The Yankees are displaying rather well just how desperately the rules of The Game need modification so Fans of all Teams can have a piece of the pie to enjoy once in a while at least.

[Fan4life]

Originally Posted by helloharv

In order to EVER make the playoffs again...we will have to finish ahead of NY or Bos ...those two teams spend money on Elite Talent Every year plus bring up their own talent..... How do you think we can pass them in the standings if we only do one of those things year in and year out?

We're not likely to be better than both of those teams on any consistent basis. Perhaps once every 4-6 years if many things go well.

[where's earl]

Originally Posted by Pickle20

I see a lot of people advocating that the Orioles spend a ton of money this year, and some people even want to see guys like Josh Bell and Brandon Snyder blocked. Signing a couple of FA SP's would also block some very good pitching prospects of our own, too.

Take a look around at the winning teams in 2009. They mostly developed their own talent and then kept that talent when they became FA's.

The only exception of course, is New York, who signed the 3 best free agents last year, and have repeatedly signed top FA's in the past. They still do occasionally produce a decent prospect, but it's nothing like their 1996 team when they had developed most of the talent on their team from the minors.

The Orioles are developing their own talent.

Now, I will say that 2010 is about more than just giving guys a chance to play, W-L record be damned. That is far from the truth. 2010 is very much about wins and losses. It's about putting together the talent we have in the system and building an actual TEAM that can compete night in and night out.

It just bugs me to see people crying for AM and the O's to throw money at FA's. There is a plan in place. It might be moving slower than we like, but regardless of if it works or not, it is the correct way to go about becoming a winner.

Just look around at the good teams. The proof is on their rosters.

MacPhail's job is to improve the bottom line. You sit around and wait for players to develop and all you do is lose. Hom many minor league players become major leaguers with a 5-10 year career. Maybe 1 out of ten, you won't win crap with that. But if you have 35 guys making the league minimum like the O's the owner gets a big fat check twice a year to spend on cigars and bourbon. Here's an idea, just send PA $100.00 a month and spend the summer at Ocean City.

[cb coach]

Originally Posted by Fan4life

We're not likely to be better than both of those teams on any consistent basis. Perhaps once every 4-6 years if many things go well.

Well that would be okay, don't you think?