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ChippewaJoe

Univ of Michigan adds lacrosse

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You're right to an extent, I think. The growth of lacrosse over the past 10-20 years has already brought a lot of new faces to the playoffs and even the Final Four- with Denver and Notre Dame the past 2 years.

 

But the tradtional powers are still there too. It's a good thing all the way around, bringing more attention to a great game.

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I would agree that it is a good thing. Unfortunately for the home teams, their days of preeminence are numbered. When Mich, OSU, Florida, etc get established in 10'+ years, watch out. I doubt the tourney will be dominated by ACC, Ivy or other East Coast schools, as it is now. Please note - I did not say they won't be there. Just saying their party is about to get crashed.

 

The landscape is changing, and, is changing for the betterment of the sport of lacrosse.

 

OSU has actually has a team for quite a long time. I believe Michigan is the first major DI school to add lacrosse since 1990 when Notre Dame did. I think maybe Michigan State dropped it within that period.

 

The 10+ years is the significant thing. It might well end up being more like 20 years before enough of these big schools add the sport and have got their teams together competitively. The big thing would be a change in Title IX.

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You're right to an extent, I think. The growth of lacrosse over the past 10-20 years has already brought a lot of new faces to the playoffs and even the Final Four- with Denver and Notre Dame the past 2 years.

 

But the tradtional powers are still there too. It's a good thing all the way around, bringing more attention to a great game.

 

 

Notre Lame didn't make the Final Four this year. They made it in 2010 and 2001. They have been in the NCAA lax tourney 15 times. The program is about 31 years old. I think Denver got as far as they did because of Tierney.

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OSU has actually has a team for quite a long time. I believe Michigan is the first major DI school to add lacrosse since 1990 when Notre Dame did. I think maybe Michigan State dropped it within that period.

 

The 10+ years is the significant thing. It might well end up being more like 20 years before enough of these big schools add the sport and have got their teams together competitively. The big thing would be a change in Title IX.

 

Disagree. Became NCAA in about 2000. That's not a "long time".

 

As far as Notre Lame, check your records. Believe they became NCAA. Program in 1981.

 

Success will depend, in large measure, on the state of HS lax in their respective states. In the Midwest, I believe, only Mich, Ohio and Illinois have decent programs at theHS level.

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Notre Lame didn't make the Final Four this year. They made it in 2010 and 2001. They have been in the NCAA lax tourney 15 times. The program is about 31 years old. I think Denver got as far as they did because of Tierney.

 

:rolleyes:

 

I realize Notre Dame didn't make the Final Four this year. I was talking about last year.

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:rolleyes:

 

I realize Notre Dame didn't make the Final Four this year. I was talking about last year.

 

ND was in it in 2001 and 2010.

 

My point remains - ND has been playing lax for almost 30 years. They are not a newcomer. Md hasn't been to the Final Four, I believe, for much longer than that...Md has been at it much longer than ND, but neither is a newcomer. My point.

 

So, if ND's first appearance in the Final Four wasn't for 20 years after formation...then I suspect it will be 10-20 years for OSU, Mich, Florida, etc.

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OK. I was thinking newcomers to the Final Four.

 

Having more or new teams in the playoffs or Finals is good. For instance, I believe you have stated in the past that Michigan has one of the largest numbers of alumni in the country. If UM reached the playoffs or Final Four in the future in lacrosse, that'd be quite a lot of eyes watching and potential future fans of the game that might otherwise not be watching.

 

The same would apply if some of the California or Florida state schools take up the game. Maybe some don't feel the more fans the merrier, but I do.

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The same would apply if some of the California or Florida state schools take up the game. Maybe some don't feel the more fans the merrier, but I do.

 

Completely agree. Hard to take lax seriously, when only 60 (or so) D1 universities play the sport. Still is niche sport, but things are slowly changing for the better.

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Disagree. Became NCAA in about 2000. That's not a "long time".

 

As far as Notre Lame, check your records. Believe they became NCAA. Program in 1981.

 

Success will depend, in large measure, on the state of HS lax in their respective states. In the Midwest, I believe, only Mich, Ohio and Illinois have decent programs at theHS level.

 

OSU lists having a lacrosse team since 1953. Played UMd in 1990, 1991, 1994.

 

You are right about ND in 1981. Back in the 1990's Notre Dame used to regularly make the NCAAs as the western representative.

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OSU lists having a lacrosse team since 1953. Played UMd in 1990, 1991, 1994.

 

You are right about ND in 1981. Back in the 1990's Notre Dame used to regularly make the NCAAs as the western representative.

 

Starting in 1994, I believe, OSU was in the Great Western Lacrosse League, along with such teams as ND, Butler (yes, the same Butler) and Michigan State. During the late 90, MSU and Butler dropped lacrosse.

 

Most large school like Michigan, and other B10 schools, have had club lacrosse for a long time. Michigan's lacrosse program goes back to the 50,s, as well.

 

I'm pretty confident that OSU has not had NCAA lax going back more than a decade, or two. If you go to the official OSU. Lax web site, their archive only goes back to 2000.

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Starting in 1994, I believe, OSU was in the Great Western Lacrosse League, along with such teams as ND, Butler (yes, the same Butler) and Michigan State. During the late 90, MSU and Butler dropped lacrosse.

 

Most large school like Michigan, and other B10 schools, have had club lacrosse for a long time. Michigan's lacrosse program goes back to the 50,s, as well.

 

I'm pretty confident that OSU has not had NCAA lax going back more than a decade, or two. If you go to the official OSU. Lax web site, their archive only goes back to 2000.

 

Actually, if you go into the yearbook on the OSU lax site it shows records back to 1953.

 

I looked up the UMd games on the Maryland website, so certainly OSU was not a club team in 1990 because they played UMd.

 

2000 is merely around the time that most schools started having websites.

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Actually, if you go into the yearbook on the OSU lax site it shows records back to 1953.

 

I looked up the UMd games on the Maryland website, so certainly OSU was not a club team in 1990 because they played UMd.

 

2000 is merely around the time that most schools started having websites.

 

 

The ONLY reference I can find to OSU being in the NCAA, for lacrosse, is 1994 when they were in the newly formed Great Western Lacrosse League. Further, OSU is usually very good in posting all the important dates involving their team, etc...but nothing in lax before 2000. Odd.

 

They may have been in the NCAA in 1990, when they played Md, but no idea what the rules were back then in playing a team/club not in the NCAA.

 

Finally, when I cross-referenced to the NCAA record books for lacrosse, there's not one mention of any player, any record from OSU prior to this time.

 

None of this is conclusive evidence, but after spending about an hour trying to find when their lax program was in the NCAA...I can't find anything definitive. There simply is a dirth of OSU lax info pre-1994. Odd?

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If you look through the historical section in the OSU 2011 Team Guide:

http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=89206&SPID=10648&DB_OEM_ID=17300&ATCLID=205095801

 

You will see that it list teams records since 1953. It includes players from the

1950's and 1960's in the team records.

For example:

CAREER POINTS LEADERS

Name Years G-A P

1. Terry Gilmore............... 1976-79.........123-127....... 250

2. Joel Dalgarno.............. 2006-09.........126-101....... 227

3. Kevin Buchanan........... 2005-08.........97-78........... 175

4. Jon Ewert.................... 1983-86.........86-79........... 165

5. Craig Cooper................ 1974-78.........88-75........... 163

6. Curtis Smith................. 2000-03.........102-53......... 155

7. Bill Rodgers ................ 1978-81.........107-43......... 150

8. Mike Avery.................. 1988-91.........98-50........... 148

9. Tim McCabe................ 1986-89.........94-51........... 145

10. David Blue................... 1990-93.........102-38......... 140

11. Cliff Murray................. 1966-68.........41-97........... 138

 

What Division they were in, I do not know.

 

Gilmore is listed as an All-American at the DI level in the laxpower database in

1978 and 1979:

http://www.laxpower.com/all-amer/aa_historical_men.php

1978 I Gilmore, Terry Midfield HM

1979 I Gilmore, Terry Midfield HM

 

But there is no OSU player listed in the laxpower AA database after 1979 till2000.

 

Basically, finding data on lacrosse from pre-2000 on the internet is hard.

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If you look through the historical section in the OSU 2011 Team Guide:

http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=89206&SPID=10648&DB_OEM_ID=17300&ATCLID=205095801

 

You will see that it list teams records since 1953. It includes players from the

1950's and 1960's in the team records.

For example:

CAREER POINTS LEADERS

Name Years G-A P

1. Terry Gilmore............... 1976-79.........123-127....... 250

2. Joel Dalgarno.............. 2006-09.........126-101....... 227

3. Kevin Buchanan........... 2005-08.........97-78........... 175

4. Jon Ewert.................... 1983-86.........86-79........... 165

5. Craig Cooper................ 1974-78.........88-75........... 163

6. Curtis Smith................. 2000-03.........102-53......... 155

7. Bill Rodgers ................ 1978-81.........107-43......... 150

8. Mike Avery.................. 1988-91.........98-50........... 148

9. Tim McCabe................ 1986-89.........94-51........... 145

10. David Blue................... 1990-93.........102-38......... 140

11. Cliff Murray................. 1966-68.........41-97........... 138

 

What Division they were in, I do not know.

 

Gilmore is listed as an All-American at the DI level in the laxpower database in

1978 and 1979:

http://www.laxpower.com/all-amer/aa_historical_men.php

1978 I Gilmore, Terry Midfield HM

1979 I Gilmore, Terry Midfield HM

 

But there is no OSU player listed in the laxpower AA database after 1979 till2000.

 

Basically, finding data on lacrosse from pre-2000 on the internet is hard.

 

 

Zach,

 

Yep, I saw the OSU info from their web site. But that really doesn't tell me much. Again, I was looking at either some web site that said when their lax program was in the NCAA, OR, some independent data from the NCAA (for example) that showed NCAA lax records for OSU anytime after 1971, when lax became NCAA. I can't find any reference like this. Odd?:eek:

 

What preceded the NCAA for lax? I saw where Maryland played MIT...yes, that MIT...in lax in the 60's!! Wasn't even aware MIT had sanctioned sports? My point being - I'm not sure what any of this means prior to the NCAA's involvement? The only thing I am certain is that OSU was a charter member of the Great Western Lacrosse League that was formed in 1994.before that date, I'm not sure what conference they were in, or even what level they were playing at?

 

Finally, by way of a little personal info - A few years back, Eric Lusby, from Severna Park, received an offer to play lax at OSU. He ultimately chose Loyola over OSU. When I asked his dad why, he said OSU had no lax tradition. Now, that doesn't tell me when?, but it does tell me that had OSU been in the lax game, in a serious way, for many decades...one would expect they would have some "tradition" by now.

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Michigan just announced over the weekend that they will be fielding a women's team in 2013, in the same conference as Northwestern, Ohio State, and Johns Hopkins (amongst others).

 

Reading this thread, I had no idea that Michigan State had ever fielded a DivI lacrosse team (disbanding in '97). Never saw one article in any of the various papers. Not sure if that bodes well for U-M for both the guys and gals.

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I think if Michigan football gets back on track, and the money train that football generates continues to flow...the lax program(s) will be fine. But, if Michigan football continues to flounder for the foreseeable future, then the hand that feeds all the other programs (football), will begin to close.

 

Trust me when I say - there is no strong, grass-roots love for lax in Michigan. The lax start-up was all made possible by a grant from the pizza mogul. But in general, it's football #1, then hockey and/or basketball #2 and #3.

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I think if Michigan football gets back on track, and the money train that football generates continues to flow...the lax program(s) will be fine. But, if Michigan football continues to flounder for the foreseeable future, then the hand that feeds all the other programs (football), will begin to close.

 

Trust me when I say - there is no strong, grass-roots love for lax in Michigan. The lax start-up was all made possible by a grant from the pizza mogul. But in general, it's football #1, then hockey and/or basketball #2 and #3.

 

No one would deny the truth of your post. Although, lacrosse does seem to be a growth sport in Michigan with 94 high schools having teams according to laxpower. Also, the niche lacrosse occupies of being popular amongst the upper middle class, probably makes it a nice addition for Michigan. Also, many of the schools Michigan likes to compete against have teams: OSU, ND, PSU, the Ivy league, ACC, service academies, ...

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No one would deny the truth of your post. Although, lacrosse does seem to be a growth sport in Michigan with 94 high schools having teams according to laxpower. Also, the niche lacrosse occupies of being popular amongst the upper middle class, probably makes it a nice addition for Michigan. Also, many of the schools Michigan likes to compete against have teams: OSU, ND, PSU, the Ivy league, ACC, service academies, ...

 

Inorder to sustain, the issue will be revenue. Even in a state such as Md, where there has long been both high school and college lax traditions, it's hard to get more than a few thousand butts in the seats for many college games. Heck, I was surprised at the rather enemic crowd at the NCAA championship game bvetween Md and another area lax team. Now, take a state like Michigan, with no strong roots/tradition for lax, and attendance figures will (ultimately) be an important factor regarding the longevity of the program...UNLESS...football can continue to support. The ONLY game I can see that will pull any interest will be the OSU game....and that has nothing to do with the game of lax, itself. Also, keep in mind that classes END at Michigan in late April (unlike many universities that go until the end of may). The students will all be gone by April 30th..and if Michigan gets back to March Madness, the month of March will be focused on basketball, not lax.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope their program makes it. My son just graduated from Blue. But, without the big donation from the pizza man, and continued support from the football program...Michigan lax would be still born because it is not a revenue generating sport, and is not likely to ever be one. I was told by an AD I know that sports like lax, soccer, etc take about $2-$3 million per year, per gender/sport (ie male and female) to keep running. Hockey is much, much more than this. Many schools have 15-25 NCAA sports. That's a BOAT LOAD of money that has to come from someplace? Everything is easy when the school gets big donations (as did PSU to start hockey - $80mil)...but the issue will be...how will they balance their books 10 years from now? Answer: gotta come from football revenue. Many schools charge every student an activity fee to help make up the difference. For some family's, that's a tax that they don't want to pay. A few schools, like Purdue University, doesn't charge their students a dime....but is one reason why they have fewer NCAA sports than most school's their size. The Republican in me (I'm an Independent) says - if a sport can't pay it's own way, why bother? If the students wanted and supported, then they would go to the games. But when attendance, for some NCAA events is only a few 100...then clearly nobody cares, so why sponsor?

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I don't know that attendance is the only means of profit for a lacrosse at a DI school like Michigan. More games are appearing on TV than before and this seems to be increasing which brings in TV revenue. Then there is the summer camp thing; 94 high schools in Michigan playing lacrosse now and it will probably be increasing - that is quite a lot of kids for a lax camp at Michigan. Then there is merchandising - Michigan lacrosse shirts, ...

 

Notre Dame could also be a big game for Michigan.

 

I think the big thing for Michigan is to get competitive fairly quickly. If they could get into the top 20 regularly after 5 years, it would make it much harder to cut lacrosse. If they could make it into the top 10 in 10 years, the popularity of lacrosse might carry them a long way - much as it has done at Notre Dame.

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I don't know that attendance is the only means of profit for a lacrosse at a DI school like Michigan. More games are appearing on TV than before and this seems to be increasing which brings in TV revenue. Then there is the summer camp thing; 94 high schools in Michigan playing lacrosse now and it will probably be increasing - that is quite a lot of kids for a lax camp at Michigan. Then there is merchandising - Michigan lacrosse shirts, ...

 

Notre Dame could also be a big game for Michigan.

 

I think the big thing for Michigan is to get competitive fairly quickly. If they could get into the top 20 regularly after 5 years, it would make it much harder to cut lacrosse. If they could make it into the top 10 in 10 years, the popularity of lacrosse might carry them a long way - much as it has done at Notre Dame.

 

Here's the bottom line - I'm not aware of ANY lax program that is profitable, so it is highly unlikely that Mich lax will be profitable...even with some love from the BTN.

 

There is not a strong rivalry between Mich and ND. The rivalries are with OSU and MSU. That said, nobody in the BT likes ND so that game might draw some.

 

Mich football is a huge cash cow, so, for the immediate future, I don't see them cutting lax. But I doubt lax will ever be profitable, and as long as they can drink from the football well, there's nothing to worry about.

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Here's the bottom line - I'm not aware of ANY lax program that is profitable, so it is highly unlikely that Mich lax will be profitable...even with some love from the BTN.

 

There is not a strong rivalry between Mich and ND. The rivalries are with OSU and MSU. That said, nobody in the BT likes ND so that game might draw some.

 

Mich football is a huge cash cow, so, for the immediate future, I don't see them cutting lax. But I doubt lax will ever be profitable, and as long as they can drink from the football well, there's nothing to worry about.

 

Someone on thesabre.com said the UVa program was breaking even.

 

I think there is a good chance that sometime in the future lacrosse will be profitable for many schools. Lacrosse is growing. I think TV might push it over the break even mark eventually.

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Someone on thesabre.com said the UVa program was breaking even. [/Quote]

 

Doubtful. 2009 attendance figures:

 

1. Syracuse 5,832

2. Ohio State 5,762

3. Navy 5,263

4. Johns Hopkins 3,036

5. Massachusetts 2,930

6. Virginia 2,712

7. Hofstra 2,455

8. Cornell 2,317

9. Towson 2,187

10. Loyola 2,084

11. North Carolina 1,769

12. Maryland 1,653

13. Princeton 1,599

14. Stony Brook 1,554

15. Duke 1,527

16. Georgetown 1,517

17. UMBC 1,333

18. Harvard 1,271

19. Brown 1,038

20. Rutgers 1,034

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