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Gilman Settles The Private Versus Public Debate In Lacrosse!!


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#1 GREYHOUND ALUM

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:01 PM

I remember last year all of the Heredord folks talked about how well they would do in the MIAA. Some even noted a scrimmage. Well Gilman went out to Parkton and proved that the 4 time defending state champs were not ready to play with the big boys. Won in a 10-3 route!! So please Hereford people, no more of the crap about the MIAA teams ducking you!!

#2 eaglesinsider

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:30 PM

Congrats to Gilman.

A down, previously 0-2 St. Paul's team beat Fallston 8-7 in OT yesterday too. So 2-0 for the MIAA A against good publics. St. Paul's plays Hereford too, sometime next week I think.

Changing the A Conference format around and getting rid of divisions cut from 13 down to 9 conference games... so there's 4 more open dates and 2 more weeks for non-conference games.

Other Private-Public games:
Spalding: vs. Annapolis (4/7 @ Severn)
BL: vs Fallston (3/26), @ Bel Air (3/30)
Loyola: @ Middletown (4/4)
MSJ: vs. Catonsville (3/23), vs. Annapolis (3/30), @ Arundel (4/4), @ Mt. Hebron (4/7)
Severn: @ Annapolis (4/5), vs. Severna Park (4/7)
St. Mary's: @ Severna Park (3/28)
St. Paul's: @ Hereford (3/27)

On the girls side, McD just beat Vero Beach (FL) 15-5 in a match up of the 2 longest winning streaks in hs girls lax (VB was at 60 some, McD was at 50 some)- McD put a running clock (didn't know they had that in girl's lax) on them.

Edited by eaglesinsider, 24 March 2012 - 02:42 PM.


#3 slapshot

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:02 PM

I remember last year all of the Heredord folks talked about how well they would do in the MIAA. Some even noted a scrimmage. Well Gilman went out to Parkton and proved that the 4 time defending state champs were not ready to play with the big boys. Won in a 10-3 route!! So please Hereford people, no more of the crap about the MIAA teams ducking you!!


It's rout, not "route".

I think most people familiar with lax, know that the MIAA A has some of the best lax programs in the country. Only a few conferences in NY would have a shot to compete. Locally, I think only lax in AACo is deep enough to compete with the MIAA B (not A). Severna Park, South River, Broadneck, Arundel and Annapolis are usually in the running for a county/state title.
You miss 100% of the shots you never take.
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#4 Oil Can

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:04 PM

I remember last year all of the Heredord folks talked about how well they would do in the MIAA. Some even noted a scrimmage. Well Gilman went out to Parkton and proved that the 4 time defending state champs were not ready to play with the big boys. Won in a 10-3 route!! So please Hereford people, no more of the crap about the MIAA teams ducking you!!

Ill be the first to admit that I don't know much about lacrosse. In fact, I don't even consider it a real sport but tell me what a 10-3 route is? Is that where the attacker runs 10 yards down and then 3 yards in and the middie hits him w a pass for a easy goal?

#5 eaglesinsider

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:20 PM

It's rout, not "route".

I think most people familiar with lax, know that the MIAA A has some of the best lax programs in the country. Only a few conferences in NY would have a shot to compete. Locally, I think only lax in AACo is deep enough to compete with the MIAA B (not A). Severna Park, South River, Broadneck, Arundel and Annapolis are usually in the running for a county/state title.


I agree with this. I would say AACo could win 3/4 of games against MIAA B schools. There are 1 or 2 schools that shouldn't be in the A in lacrosse (MSJ comes to mind).

Most people know that the A Conference has only lost 1 game against publics (Dulaney over McDonogh by 1 in '03 I believe), but with MSJ playing 4, I could see them going 2-2.

I would favor Annapolis over MSJ slightly, and Spalding is a winnable game for Annapolis.

#6 GREYHOUND ALUM

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:06 PM

It's rout, not "route".

I think most people familiar with lax, know that the MIAA A has some of the best lax programs in the country. Only a few conferences in NY would have a shot to compete. Locally, I think only lax in AACo is deep enough to compete with the MIAA B (not A). Severna Park, South River, Broadneck, Arundel and Annapolis are usually in the running for a county/state title.



It's called an iPhone and it has a mind of its on. But thanks for correcting me, how did I ever survive in life without you? I'm just a lowly commoner, I don't compare to such a great individual like yourself! I bow to you oh great one!

#7 slapshot

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:30 PM

It's called an iPhone and it has a mind of its on. But thanks for correcting me, how did I ever survive in life without you? I'm just a lowly commoner, I don't compare to such a great individual like yourself! I bow to you oh great one!


Anytime.;)
You miss 100% of the shots you never take.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not to where it has been.

- Wayne Gretzky

#8 Ray52

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:32 AM

I remember last year all of the Heredord folks talked about how well they would do in the MIAA. Some even noted a scrimmage. Well Gilman went out to Parkton and proved that the 4 time defending state champs were not ready to play with the big boys. Won in a 10-3 route!! So please Hereford people, no more of the crap about the MIAA teams ducking you!!


Yup. Best team money can buy.

#9 Brohan

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

Yup. Best team money can buy.


Yup. Born on third and thinks he hit a triple.

#10 GREYHOUND ALUM

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:04 AM

Yup. Born on third and thinks he hit a triple.


If you knew anything about me you would know that I was FAR from being born on third!!!

#11 eaglesinsider

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:33 AM

Yup. Best team money can buy.


Actually, pretty much all lacrosse players are wealthy enough to afford tuition... It's not a cheap sport to play, and most kids at MIAA schools have been playing since the age of 5. I don't think there's more than 1 or 2 on each MIAA A team on financial aid.

Usually the best players are at MIAA A schools because their fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers attended these same schools and played lacrosse. Also, for the schools (McDonogh, Gilman, St. Pauls, BL) that have elementary and/or middle schools, most of the kids have been there since the beginning, long before their athletic abilities became evident (this is actually true in a lot of sports).

Either that, or they are kids of parents who attended public schools, but wanted something better for their kids and now have the financial means to achieve that.

I mean look at the best lacrosse players on each team... the Kelly's have been going to CHC pretty much since the school opened.

So, actually, it's the best team that educational and athletic opportunities (best conference in the nation, etc...) can attract.

#12 cpm

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:49 AM

Yup. Best team money can buy.


Let's remember that some of the very best lax teams in the country are NY publics. Public v private is not really a big question in most of the lax world, (though certainly more privates nationally are at or near the top of the game than in most sports) except in a few areas like MD where there are so many excellent private options, including the catholic schools. The privates here are accessible to any bright kid who has special attributes beyond just being bright, eg playing sports, a terrific artist, etc. Sports are a significant on ramp for kids these days and the relative lack of excellence in education in so many of the urban publics has created real reason for parents to seek better. Lacrosse is indeed a more expensive sport than, say basketball or soccer, but not as expensive as football or ice hockey and similar to baseball. So, expense is not really the issue. Again, many of the top lax schools elsewhere are publics.

It's the attraction of a better education, with the help of sports to get there. And lax is particularly helpful in getting to a top notch college educational opportunity. So, many of the players and their parents who see lacrosse as a potential on ramp are very rational in migrating to the great academic schools, like Gilman, which play the toughest schedules year in and year out.

One of the reasons why Hereford has been excelling in lax is that it has become a viable alternative educationally to some of the privates. They're doing a better and better job in the classroom. And make no mistake, just because Gilman won handily down the stretch, doesn't mean that Hereford's not a terrific lax program with some very good players. The Gilman goalie got hot and the defense got very tough after the first few minutes of play and momentum shifted, then solidified. A few of those shots go in in either the 2nd or third qrtr and it could have been a much tighter contest. It will be interesting to see what Hereford does against St Pauls next Tuesday. Both teams have some great players, but not quite as much depth, perhaps as Gilman this year.

#13 slapshot

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 01:43 PM

Let's remember that some of the very best lax teams in the country are NY publics. Public v private is not really a big question in most of the lax world, (though certainly more privates nationally are at or near the top of the game than in most sports) except in a few areas like MD where there are so many excellent private options, including the catholic schools. The privates here are accessible to any bright kid who has special attributes beyond just being bright, eg playing sports, a terrific artist, etc. Sports are a significant on ramp for kids these days and the relative lack of excellence in education in so many of the urban publics has created real reason for parents to seek better. Lacrosse is indeed a more expensive sport than, say basketball or soccer, but not as expensive as football or ice hockey and similar to baseball. So, expense is not really the issue. Again, many of the top lax schools elsewhere are publics.

It's the attraction of a better education, with the help of sports to get there. And lax is particularly helpful in getting to a top notch college educational opportunity. So, many of the players and their parents who see lacrosse as a potential on ramp are very rational in migrating to the great academic schools, like Gilman, which play the toughest schedules year in and year out.

One of the reasons why Hereford has been excelling in lax is that it has become a viable alternative educationally to some of the privates. They're doing a better and better job in the classroom. And make no mistake, just because Gilman won handily down the stretch, doesn't mean that Hereford's not a terrific lax program with some very good players. The Gilman goalie got hot and the defense got very tough after the first few minutes of play and momentum shifted, then solidified. A few of those shots go in in either the 2nd or third qrtr and it could have been a much tighter contest. It will be interesting to see what Hereford does against St Pauls next Tuesday. Both teams have some great players, but not quite as much depth, perhaps as Gilman this year.


A few points:

(1) Unlike collegiate basketball and football, lax can only give 12.5 full scholarships per year. What that means to the aspiring collegiate lax player is....even the best players are only likely to get a partial scholarships. Under NCAA rules, colleges can divide up each of the 12.5 full scholarships to give a piece to most of the players. So, if you're looking for a "full ride", better pick another sport.

(2) IMO, top private HS sports programs - in any sport (not just lax) - are akin to an AAU team. When I looked at the roster for some of the top private school hockey, soccer or lax programs, I saw many of the same names on the rosters of top/select AAU/travel programs. A major difference with the top privates, compared to the top publics is the depth. While the top pubs will have a handful of outstanding athletes, the private roster will be stocked with mostly good to excellent athletes. When we use to play MSJ or DeMatha in hockey, Severna Park's first line could hold their own...but when the 2nd, 3rd or 4th lines were rotated in, it became very evident that the privates just had more depth. But, that's the nature of the beast....the pubs have to work with who's in the feeder program, while the privates pull from wherever they can. Just the way it is. If you want a better comparison, a fairer test - compare some of the better, select AAU or travel teams in soccer, lax, basketball, baseball or hockey to the better private schools. Bet the AAU/select travel teams win 3 out of 4 times. Just the way it is.

(3) Those kids that put an emphasis on educational excellence can find equal, and sometimes better, educational opportunities at top pubs. The top 25% in good public schools, the AP students if you will, perform just as well as those in the privates. Case in point - when my oldest son graduated from Severna Park HS, his graduating class had 9 National Merit Finalists. Not semi finalists, but nine finalists. I did some checking....no private school in the state of Maryland has ever come close to that number. Not bragging, just making the point that good students do well, no matter where they are (within limits, of course)....the pubs just have a wider distribution in the type of student they have to admit. The privates have the luxury of picking and choosing, as well as limiting the class size. Size is a big reason why most of the top colleges are small private schools. Selectivity scoring goes up, when you admit a small fraction of students admitted by public universities. But the top 10-25% of the pubs are every bit as bright.

Edited by slapshot, 25 March 2012 - 02:02 PM.

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#14 pmore108

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:41 AM

A few points:

(1) Unlike collegiate basketball and football, lax can only give 12.5 full scholarships per year. What that means to the aspiring collegiate lax player is....even the best players are only likely to get a partial scholarships. Under NCAA rules, colleges can divide up each of the 12.5 full scholarships to give a piece to most of the players. So, if you're looking for a "full ride", better pick another sport.

(2) IMO, top private HS sports programs - in any sport (not just lax) - are akin to an AAU team. When I looked at the roster for some of the top private school hockey, soccer or lax programs, I saw many of the same names on the rosters of top/select AAU/travel programs. A major difference with the top privates, compared to the top publics is the depth. While the top pubs will have a handful of outstanding athletes, the private roster will be stocked with mostly good to excellent athletes. When we use to play MSJ or DeMatha in hockey, Severna Park's first line could hold their own...but when the 2nd, 3rd or 4th lines were rotated in, it became very evident that the privates just had more depth. But, that's the nature of the beast....the pubs have to work with who's in the feeder program, while the privates pull from wherever they can. Just the way it is. If you want a better comparison, a fairer test - compare some of the better, select AAU or travel teams in soccer, lax, basketball, baseball or hockey to the better private schools. Bet the AAU/select travel teams win 3 out of 4 times. Just the way it is.

(3) Those kids that put an emphasis on educational excellence can find equal, and sometimes better, educational opportunities at top pubs. The top 25% in good public schools, the AP students if you will, perform just as well as those in the privates. Case in point - when my oldest son graduated from Severna Park HS, his graduating class had 9 National Merit Finalists. Not semi finalists, but nine finalists. I did some checking....no private school in the state of Maryland has ever come close to that number. Not bragging, just making the point that good students do well, no matter where they are (within limits, of course)....the pubs just have a wider distribution in the type of student they have to admit. The privates have the luxury of picking and choosing, as well as limiting the class size. Size is a big reason why most of the top colleges are small private schools. Selectivity scoring goes up, when you admit a small fraction of students admitted by public universities. But the top 10-25% of the pubs are every bit as bright.


I agree with #3 to a point. The real advantage to a private is what it does with the kids who aren't top of their class. I was probably top 35-40% of my class which is nothing to brag about, but I was able to get into my college of choice (UMD) and probably could have gone somewhere else if I wanted. If I would have gone to my district school (Bel Air) which is a good school, with decent athletics and I agree the top kids their could compete with some privates, I defintiely would have goofed off and been lost in the shuffle. I don't come from a wealthy family, my mother is an office manager and my father was in and out of the picture for most of my high school career and my younger brother's time at chc.

As for the people who think privates have "the best teams money can buy": Most kids (and parents) are attracted to schools like CHC, gilman, McD, Loyola because of the reputation or family connections. My cousins went to chc, I wanted to go there. I agree that if a kid lives a district with a good/great public he can get a great education, but I met kids from all over at chc and not everyone of them had a great public school to attend.

#15 lord_baltimore

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:34 AM

I didn't know there was a debate.

#16 GREYHOUND ALUM

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:04 PM

I didn't know there was a debate.


There really isn't a debate but the Hereford people were all saying last year that they could beat Gilman and win the MIAA.

That being said, Hereford did beat St. Paul's today in OT. A pretty huge victory, even though St. Paul's isn't really strong this year.

In other news, Gilman and McDonogh beat the Top 2 DC area teams in Prep and Gonzaga. CHC got upset but the MIAA is looking very strong.

#17 eaglesinsider

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:21 PM

There really isn't a debate but the Hereford people were all saying last year that they could beat Gilman and win the MIAA.

That being said, Hereford did beat St. Paul's today in OT. A pretty huge victory, even though St. Paul's isn't really strong this year.

In other news, Gilman and McDonogh beat the Top 2 DC area teams in Prep and Gonzaga. CHC got upset but the MIAA is looking very strong.


It's going to be a typical MIAA A season. The top teams can beat anyone or lose to anyone in league play. Whoever is hot going into the playoffs will probably win the league.

Gilman came out of the gate real slow last year and most people thought they might not even make the playoffs, then they turned it on in the second 1/2 of the season.

St. Paul's is 1-3 on the year now... they look terrible, their only win was over Fallston in OT. It's going to be a long year in Brooklandville. They might only win 2 league games (MSJ, Spalding). As an aside, since the formation of the MIAA (1995), this is only the 2nd time an MPSSAA school has beaten an MIAA A school (Dulaney over a pretty bad McDonogh team by 1 in 2003 was the other). However, the fact that a Hereford team that will almost certainly repeat as state champs, beating a St. Paul's team that will finish at the bottom of the serious lacrosse schools in the MIAA A is still considered an "upset" and a big win shows you just how big the gap really is.

I was pleasantly surprised by the McDonogh win over Gonzaga, I didn't expect McD to be very good this year. Gilman's win over Prep was very impressive as well. That's the top team in the IAC and the top team in the WCAC going down in the same day.

#18 GREYHOUND ALUM

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:00 PM

It's going to be a typical MIAA A season. The top teams can beat anyone or lose to anyone in league play. Whoever is hot going into the playoffs will probably win the league.

Gilman came out of the gate real slow last year and most people thought they might not even make the playoffs, then they turned it on in the second 1/2 of the season.

St. Paul's is 1-3 on the year now... they look terrible, their only win was over Fallston in OT. It's going to be a long year in Brooklandville. They might only win 2 league games (MSJ, Spalding). As an aside, since the formation of the MIAA (1995), this is only the 2nd time an MPSSAA school has beaten an MIAA A school (Dulaney over a pretty bad McDonogh team by 1 in 2003 was the other). However, the fact that a Hereford team that will almost certainly repeat as state champs, beating a St. Paul's team that will finish at the bottom of the serious lacrosse schools in the MIAA A is still considered an "upset" and a big win shows you just how big the gap really is.

I was pleasantly surprised by the McDonogh win over Gonzaga, I didn't expect McD to be very good this year. Gilman's win over Prep was very impressive as well. That's the top team in the IAC and the top team in the WCAC going down in the same day.



I was pretty shocked by the McDonogh win and honestly expecting Gilman to lose. I thought Gilman would be good this year not as good as last year but they look pretty solid. I know CHC lost to a very good team but I didn't think they were going to lose this year. They are loaded!!

#19 theZJ

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 03:04 AM

This is actually a pretty big down year for the MIAA A (weakest in my lifetime, though part of this is other states and regions are rapidly improving) . Check out lax power results page... Though obviously the A is still way the cream of the crop in Maryland.

#20 Hallman

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:11 PM

Actually, pretty much all lacrosse players are wealthy enough to afford tuition... It's not a cheap sport to play, and most kids at MIAA schools have been playing since the age of 5. I don't think there's more than 1 or 2 on each MIAA A team on financial aid.

Usually the best players are at MIAA A schools because their fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers attended these same schools and played lacrosse. Also, for the schools (McDonogh, Gilman, St. Pauls, BL) that have elementary and/or middle schools, most of the kids have been there since the beginning, long before their athletic abilities became evident (this is actually true in a lot of sports).

Either that, or they are kids of parents who attended public schools, but wanted something better for their kids and now have the financial means to achieve that.

I mean look at the best lacrosse players on each team... the Kelly's have been going to CHC pretty much since the school opened.

So, actually, it's the best team that educational and athletic opportunities (best conference in the nation, etc...) can attract.


OR...they are children of parents who are not "well to do" but, for whatever reason(s), chose to make personal sacrifices to send their kids to a private school. Sometimes these kids are gifted in education, athletics, music or art or any combination of the above.




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