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Baltimatt

Washington State AG sues florist for refusing to provide flowers to gay wedding

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Maybe a Jewish caterer can leave little "Jesus is not the Messiah" tracts at a Christian wedding.

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And some Jews will not enter a church.

 

Sounds like those folks are in the wrong business if they purport to provide wedding services.

Should a Jewish caterer be forced to roast a pig at a wedding reception? Or be taken to court for refusing? 

 

You see how silly this whole thing becomes. Why can't public accomodation laws be exercised with a dose of common sense? Or at least a dose of actual tolerance towards the beliefs of others.

Edited by Papi

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Maybe a Jewish caterer can leave little "Jesus is not the Messiah" tracts at a Christian wedding.

It's called freedom of speech.  Read about it somewhere.  Don't like the message... don't contract with the messenger.  Done!

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Should a Jewish caterer be forced to roast a pig at a wedding reception? Or be taken to court for refusing? 

 

You see how silly this whole thing becomes. Why can't public accomodation laws be exercised with a dose of common sense? Or at least a dose of actual tolerance towards the beliefs of others.

Because, more than likely, humans will abuse that freedom too.  It's what we do.

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Should a Jewish caterer be forced to roast a pig at a wedding reception? Or be taken to court for refusing?

 

You see how silly this whole thing becomes. Why can't public accomodation laws be exercised with a dose of common sense? Or at least a dose of actual tolerance towards the beliefs of others.

Jewish caterers generally don't have pork on their menu. You can't force somebody to provide a service they don't offer. Edited by Baltimatt

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Uh they actually are free to deny service, as long as they do so as a private club. That more people don't do that shows you what a great deal public accommodation is.

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Jewish caterers generally don't have pork on their menu. You can't force somebody to provide a service they don't offer.

But they generally don't offer pork for religious reasons. Why is that protected but forcing some other religious denials of a particular service not protected? The issue is indeed a murky one. 

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But they generally don't offer pork for religious reasons. Why is that protected but forcing some other religious denials of a particular service not protected? The issue is indeed a murky one.

 

The Jewish or Muslim caterer would not provide pork to anyone. That's not discrimination as defined by the law in question.

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The Jewish or Muslim caterer would not provide pork to anyone. That's not discrimination as defined by the law in question.

But could a Catholic photographer be sued for refusing to enter a Protestant church to take pictures for a wedding between a man and a woman? That's the kind of murkiness I am describing. Under the current climate of people wanting to sue other people for perceived discrimination I could see that happening, sadly. 

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At the risk of echoing what others have said, gays and those sympathetic to the cause should boycott the store, not insist on giving them their hard-earned dollars.  

And how did the issue of "gayness" come up?  Call the store and place an order.  Done.  None of their damn business what the occasion is.  Did someone make a point of telling them?  Why?

 

And as a business owner, I think the flower shop owners are stupid.  Even if you think gayness is a sin, there isn't any prohibition to sell flowers to sinners.  Every one of your customers is a sinner.  Every one of mine is a sinner.  But we invite them in and hope they give us favorable ratings on Yelp, Google, and yes, The Gayborhood.

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So you think attending a same sex wedding is just the same as driving a gay couple in a taxi, from the point of view of the free exercise of religious beliefs? That is a profoundly ignorant comparison.

 

Clueless.

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A devout Catholic is not permitted to enter any church other than a Catholic sanctuary, so a Catholic photographer would be barred by his/her religion from stepping foot inside a temple, a Mosque, or a Protestant church for any kind of wedding. Should such a person be prosecuted for following the tenants of Catholicism and refusing to participate in a straight wedding?

 

I have personally known Catholics who felt they could not attend a friend's funeral service because it was being held in a Protestant church. Even though this particular tenant of the Catholic church may not be widely followed by all Catholics, it still exists (or did at the time that I had that experience). What seems silly to many of us can be a closely held belief by others, and in my humble opinion a person's beliefs should be respected and not forced to be ignored.

A Catholic can enter another sanctuary. The pope has done it!

 

http://www.edola.org/pope-francis-visits-martyrs-shrine/

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Should a Jewish caterer be forced to roast a pig at a wedding reception? Or be taken to court for refusing?

 

You see how silly this whole thing becomes. Why can't public accomodation laws be exercised with a dose of common sense? Or at least a dose of actual tolerance towards the beliefs of others.

If he provides kosher services no

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But could a Catholic photographer be sued for refusing to enter a Protestant church to take pictures for a wedding between a man and a woman? That's the kind of murkiness I am describing. Under the current climate of people wanting to sue other people for perceived discrimination I could see that happening, sadly.

Being that is not a tenant of Catholicism

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Being that is not a tenant of Catholicism

It was when I was growing up in a predominantly Catholic neighborhood in Baltimore County. Perhaps it has changed or been relaxed? My best friend went to a Baptist church and every Christmas season their choir would perform a Christmas Cantata, and I was invited to attend, but other friends who were Catholic declined the invitation because they were not allowed to go to a Baptist church. That was in the late 50's - early 60's so there has been plenty of opportunity for that rule to be relaxed since then, but at this point none of my close friends are practicing Catholics so I don't have anyone local to ask. 

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It was when I was growing up in a predominantly Catholic neighborhood in Baltimore County. Perhaps it has changed or been relaxed? My best friend went to a Baptist church and every Christmas season their choir would perform a Christmas Cantata, and I was invited to attend, but other friends who were Catholic declined the invitation because they were not allowed to go to a Baptist church. That was in the late 50's - early 60's so there has been plenty of opportunity for that rule to be relaxed since then, but at this point none of my close friends are practicing Catholics so I don't have anyone local to ask.

 

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=441348

 

Catholics MAY attend Protestant services and may sing, pray, etc. but they CANNOT and SHOULD NOT ever receive communion in a non-Catholic church. That is considered COMMUNICATIO IN SACRIS and is still forbidden by canon law (#1365). However, one can still be very devout, loyal, obedient and an orthodox Roman Catholic and at the same time be ecumenical. Attending non-Catholic prayer services is not forbidden. Receiving any sacrament or alleged sacrament in a non-Catholic church is forbidden. Catholics cannot consider a Protestant worship service as fulfilling their Sunday obligation, however, and must still attend a Catholic Mass. Only absolute necessity can a Catholic go to an Eastern Orthodox church for their Sunday obligation when there is no Catholic Church (Latin or Byzantine) in a reasonable distance.

As far as your friends, I don't know if that was a pre-Vatican II regulation or perhaps something their parents didn't want them to do.

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It was when I was growing up in a predominantly Catholic neighborhood in Baltimore County. Perhaps it has changed or been relaxed? My best friend went to a Baptist church and every Christmas season their choir would perform a Christmas Cantata, and I was invited to attend, but other friends who were Catholic declined the invitation because they were not allowed to go to a Baptist church. That was in the late 50's - early 60's so there has been plenty of opportunity for that rule to be relaxed since then, but at this point none of my close friends are practicing Catholics so I don't have anyone local to ask. 

 

Actually it ended with Vatican II 

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I think if I were in their shoes, I would sit down with the couple for a cup of coffee, tell them that's its great for them, if that's what they want. and tell them that while its no reflection on them, my lawyers tell me its against my religion to provide flowers (pardon the sarcasm). I would tell them that I will provide the flowers, but please understand that you are forcing me to compromise my religious principles, and it is causing me a great deal of anguish. Is that what you want your wedding day to represent?

 

They might back off. They might not. But meeting them as equal human beings with dignity might pave a way - one way or the other.

Now and then you say something that makes a lot of sense in possibly solving a moral dilemma.

That would sure put the onus on the gay couple.

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Actually it ended with Vatican II 

That concluded in the mid-sixties, so my experiences in the 1958-63 period probably was something of the norm for the time. 

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That concluded in the mid-sixties, so my experiences in the 1958-63 period probably was something of the norm for the time. 

 

Yes.  I can remember walking home from school (St. Dominic's) and passing several Protestant churches.  The nuns had us to scared to even look inside the churches much less go inside.

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Yes.  I can remember walking home from school (St. Dominic's) and passing several Protestant churches.  The nuns had us to scared to even look inside the churches much less go inside.

And I grew up around the corner from St. Ursula's in Parkville and heard similar stories from my neighborhood firends. Must have been part of the Nun training of the era.  :D  That and the use of a ruler for corporal punishment! 

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I dont think a private business should be forced to do business w/ anyone for any reason. If an asian in a blue shirt cuts me off in traffic, I should be able to not serve asians wearing blue shirts all week if I want. They can spend their money with my competition, my loss.

 

I disagree. Private business should have to do business with everyone. What if I'm the only gas station in a small town. Can I refuse to sell you gas because I don't like the name "TommyT"? Can a doctor refuse service when someone comes in with a broken leg? Can a grocery store refuse service during a blizzard because the owner doesn't like gay people? If a gay couple calls a plumber because their basement of flooded can he refuse service? Where do you draw the line on who can and can't refuse service.

 

I'm a catholic with 12 years of catholic school. I've never once been told by a teacher or priest that I should refuse service to a certain group of people. That's between God and the person asking for service, not me.

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