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Will Duquette be fooled 3 years in a row?


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#1 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:09 AM

The last two off-seasons Duquette has done nothing to improve the rotation, instead relying on the pretenders in the minor leagues to step up.  The pretenders I can think of were Arrietta, Matusz, Britton, Steve Johnson ect.  What happened is that the rotation was a disaster my mid-year.  In 2012 Tillman, Gonzales and trade for Saunders saved the day and 2013 he had to trade for Norris and Feldman.  I'm tired of seeing garbage like Freddie Garcia, Jair Jurregns, Britton and Stinson toss away games every spring and early summer because Duquette didn't do anything over the winter. Sign Feldman and Vargas to go with Tillman, Chen, Gonzales and Norris,  It's a given one will flame out or get hurt.  Happens every year.  And forget about Gausman till mid year.  He isn't ready yet as a starter.  He needs to dominate at AAA.

I'm afraid he will be the one Duquette gets fooled by again.



#2 LarryN

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:50 AM

Two words:

 

Bronson

 

Arroyo


"She's like the ex-girlfriend they're SO over, never want to see again, have already forgotten about -- really, it's O-ver -- but they just can't stop talking about her." --- Ann Coulter, discussing Sarah Palin

#3 weird-O

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:52 AM

I agree with most of your thoughts 

 

Britton is out of options. the brain trust  will hope something miraculous happens and he'll be that guy who once pitched well for 2 months, 3 years ago. I figure he'll end up in the BP. that's not a totally bad scenario. the only problem is that he's got no stones. so he won't be much use in pressure situations. he's best suited for starting a late inning, rather than coming in with RISP.

 

I read that Feldman is interested in coming back, but that could easily be the usual rhetoric that all ballplayers say. I don't think he'll be back, because he didn't want to be here in the first place. he could have signed with the O's last winter, but preferred to spend the season losing with the Cubs. Vargas is ok, but he's just ok. I fear his barely acceptable stats would balloon in the AL east. pitching in the west is alot easy compared to the teams he'd face with the O's. I like the idea of Ervin Santana, but they won't pay for him.


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#4 weird-O

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:54 AM

Two words:

 

Bronson

 

Arroyo

three words

 

sad but true


Edited by weird-O, 22 October 2013 - 09:54 AM.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#5 ivanbalt

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:15 PM

Also, will the Orioles move on from Reimold?



#6 bmore_ken

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:34 PM

Also, will the Orioles move on from Reimold?

God I hope so


Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. It has a nice sound to it

Suggs has signed. I've never been so happy to be wrong

Don't blame me, I voted Bob Barr:cool:

#7 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:44 PM

I agree with most of your thoughts 

 

Britton is out of options. the brain trust  will hope something miraculous happens and he'll be that guy who once pitched well for 2 months, 3 years ago. I figure he'll end up in the BP. that's not a totally bad scenario. the only problem is that he's got no stones. so he won't be much use in pressure situations. he's best suited for starting a late inning, rather than coming in with RISP.

 

I read that Feldman is interested in coming back, but that could easily be the usual rhetoric that all ballplayers say. I don't think he'll be back, because he didn't want to be here in the first place. he could have signed with the O's last winter, but preferred to spend the season losing with the Cubs. Vargas is ok, but he's just ok. I fear his barely acceptable stats would balloon in the AL east. pitching in the west is alot easy compared to the teams he'd face with the O's. I like the idea of Ervin Santana, but they won't pay for him.

We are on the same page.  I just want to add two competent arms to the rotation and not rely on duds from the minors or old retreads ala Freddie Garcia.  I really think they need to forget about Britton.  He is Arreitta 2.0. Unfortunately he crushed his trade value with that putrid late season performance.  Duquette has some trade chips I think need explored.  Weiters and Matusz have high value.  I'd move both in order to get a starter and one or two high on base guys.  Sign Ruiz to a two year deal to keep the catching spot warm.  I wonder if Angels would bite on a Weiters deal?  



#8 bmore_ken

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 01:35 PM

Who's catching if you trade Wieters?


Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. It has a nice sound to it

Suggs has signed. I've never been so happy to be wrong

Don't blame me, I voted Bob Barr:cool:

#9 LarryN

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:11 PM

Who's catching if you trade Wieters?

 

 

Steve Clevenger.

 

(who, by the way, had a salary this past season that was $1,000 higher than Manny Machado's)


Edited by LarryN, 22 October 2013 - 02:13 PM.

"She's like the ex-girlfriend they're SO over, never want to see again, have already forgotten about -- really, it's O-ver -- but they just can't stop talking about her." --- Ann Coulter, discussing Sarah Palin

#10 bmore_ken

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:34 PM

Steve Clevenger.

 

(who, by the way, had a salary this past season that was $1,000 higher than Manny Machado's)

A career .204 hitter with 1 career homer? Sadly sounds like an Oriole move


Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. It has a nice sound to it

Suggs has signed. I've never been so happy to be wrong

Don't blame me, I voted Bob Barr:cool:

#11 Baltimore Ravens Lets Go!

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:01 PM

A career .204 hitter with 1 career homer? Sadly sounds like an Oriole move

Right, might as well bring back Brook Fordyce or Geronimo Gil.  I don't want Wieters going anywhere.



#12 weird-O

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:26 PM

Who's catching if you trade Wieters?

Caleb Joseph is the only real option, but he's already 27. and despite the fact that he had a monster year in Bowie, he is untested at the mlb level. 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#13 weird-O

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:28 PM

Right, might as well bring back Brook Fordyce or Geronimo Gil.  I don't want Wieters going anywhere.

I think this conversation show just how much the catcher position is undervalued. there are at least a handful of FA pitcher options that would improve the O's. but there isn't a single FA catcher that would improve the O's. 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#14 johnpolitics

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:30 PM

Two words:
 
Bronson
 
Arroyo

Two Better words: King Felix. Trade Kevin G and Bundy and go get a #1 that scares everyone. The O's settle and when you settle you have settled. King Peter's wallet is part of the problem.

#15 Far from home

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:35 PM

Weird-o brought up an interesting point in the record thread...Wieters needs to stop switch hitting. His OPS on the left side is 200 points higher than on the right side...he would be a good hitting and defensive catcher with the correction.
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#16 weird-O

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:13 AM

Two Better words: King Felix. Trade Kevin G and Bundy and go get a #1 that scares everyone. The O's settle and when you settle you have settled. King Peter's wallet is part of the problem.

Seattle gave him a big $$$, long term extension. those are 2 things PGA doesn't give. but even if PGA had a change of heart, Seattle and Felix are both happy. he didn't want to leave the team or the area. 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#17 johnpolitics

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:24 PM

Seattle gave him a big $$$, long term extension. those are 2 things PGA doesn't give. but even if PGA had a change of heart, Seattle and Felix are both happy. he didn't want to leave the team or the area.

His wife might want to leave after what happened to her this season. Another players wife on the team ripped her off.

#18 weenie

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:01 PM

I think this conversation show just how much the catcher position is undervalued. there are at least a handful of FA pitcher options that would improve the O's. but there isn't a single FA catcher that would improve the O's. 

I looked into this a couple months ago and it really is open to one's interpretation.  For example, in the history of the game guys like Bench, Dickey, Fisk and Berra stand out as top tier guys but none is anyone's first choice in building a team around. Maybe Bench. Further, in recent memory guys like Pudge and Piazza stood out but again I don't see them as cornerstones of champions.  Pudge was a superb complement on some good teams but once more he's not my first choice to build a team around. The only guys in the past I think a team built around were Bench and Gary Carter.

 

On the best Orioles teams was Etchebarren, Elrod or Dempsey a vital element in the team's success?  Dempsey is probably the O's greatest catcher ever and we all love the guy for many things including his WS MVP but Palmer and others spoke of how Skaggs caught a better game. Why did Dempsey get shutout of mgmt opportunities after his Dodgers AAA stint?

 

I think much of our admiration for the position of catcher goes back to our childhood memories of dirty, bruised teammates who wore the gear and played the most difficult position in little league.  But MLB is not little league, and few guys who play catcher in the ML impact with thier bats for an extended period. 

 

To some, the position of catcher is team captain.  He's the guy who keeps the pitcher focused and he's the guy who deals with the homeplate umpire but is any ML catcher that guy?  By the majors, the coaches and manager are in control and the adolescent sandlot rough and tumble backstop is outgrown by necessity.    

 

Bottomline on all this is you have to trade the chips that do not fit into your long term plans for those that do. And, you can't hold onto guys until its convenient to do otherwise. This offseason, Wieters, Matusz and Norris together might get you a return you can work with. Would those three together bring you a frontline starting pitcher in return? I think so.

 

Is the position of catcher undervalued....or overvalued?

 

The ideal program for '14 though is to keep Matt, move Ohlman thru the upper rungs of the minors and find at bats for both Joseph and Clevenger to see if either can be in the long term plans for the ball club. Then, in July if the O's are struggling, you move Joseph up, platoon him with Clevenger and hope one of them works in tandem with Ohlman in '15.  But if Matt continues to perform like he did last summer, he might get a lot less in return than you'd like. 

 

To me Matt and Matusz are at their trade peak right now.  Throw in Britton and you might have something to show for two top ten draft choices and a supplemental first rounder after 2014. 


Edited by weenie, 24 October 2013 - 04:06 PM.


#19 weenie

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

Weird-o brought up an interesting point in the record thread...Wieters needs to stop switch hitting. His OPS on the left side is 200 points higher than on the right side...he would be a good hitting and defensive catcher with the correction.

The exact opposite.  His OPS batting left in '13 was .628 while his OPS hitting right was .872.  Historically, his OBP is about 130 points less from the left side but he does hit home runs fairly well from that side.  The problem with Matt is there are about 3 times as many oppportunities to hit against righthanded pitchers in the ML and that's his kryptonite.  Expect Clevenger to get a lot more playing time than Teagarden did.  Clevenger bats left and his major league stats are limited but he hit .311 in triple A and his OBP was .373 in both AAA and in his overall minor league career spanning almost 600 games.  Clevenger is a smart addition and I expect him to start twice a week in '14.



#20 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:41 AM

I hijacked my own thread by mentioning a trade of Weiters. But that's OK because he is part of the equation in improving the pitching staff. We are never going to be able to re-tool this team by simply signing free agents. They will never spend that kind of money. And there really isn't any immediate help in the minors unless you count Gausman and Schoop. And they really need at least a half a year of AAA seasoning. So you have to go the trade route. I'm a realist when it comes to Weiters. He is a top catcher, but is he worth 15 million/yr over 6 years starting in 2016? I think not. He is already wearing down from too many games behind the plate. Plus I'm not sure he even wants to be here past 2015. I agree with Weenie that Weiters, Matusz and Britton should be on the market. I'm afraid their trade value will only go down past 2014. I'd love to give Matusz one more chance as a starter, but how many times has he fooled us. He seems to have the same mental make-up as Arrietta and Britton. Time to get some new blood on the roster.




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