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Are Morales or Cruz worth a draft pick?


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#1 Far from home

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:52 AM

According to a Ken Rosenthal article, they may sign two FAs, including a pitcher and a hitter, which would require a draft pick. I get the pitcher - they need more top tier talent and rotation depth. I'm just not sure why they would pick up a guy like either of these and give up even a second rounder.
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#2 Slidemaster

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:59 AM

They can't draft and develop with any consistency, so it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
The kids are alright.

#3 Jimmy Jazz

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:01 AM

Cruz, as long as he never plays an inning in RF, is okay by me.

#4 weird-O

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:09 AM

they're both the same hitter. and they're both only suited to be a DH. but I would take Morales over Cruz. Cruz is 33 (3 years older than Morales) and won't be able to use PEDs any longer. look for him to see a Melky type drop in offensive production.

 

I agree with Slide, the draft hasn't been an O's strength. but now that DD is in charge, that seems to be changing (to what extent, we won't know for a couple more years). I would give up a draft pick for Santana, but not for Santana and a hitter.

 

this is why they should have signed Beltran.


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#5 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:07 PM

According to a Ken Rosenthal article, they may sign two FAs, including a pitcher and a hitter, which would require a draft pick. I get the pitcher - they need more top tier talent and rotation depth. I'm just not sure why they would pick up a guy like either of these and give up even a second rounder.

DD must be using Rosenthal as one of his national moles to pump out this propaganda.  Believe it when I see it.  Just more lip service to keep the fans hooked in that the O's are actually going to improve the club.  More crap.



#6 Far from home

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:52 PM

 

Cruz, as long as he never plays an inning in RF, is okay by me.


What if the choice is between both starters, or a starter and Cruz?
Ideological gravy trains lead to poor decisions.
Learn from the last President, and make this next era one of rebuilding what has been torn down.
Instead of being loyal to your party, be loyal to your country and your people.

#7 larsanderson

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:56 PM

Orioles are going to wait until the July trade deadline to make their move.

Signing a pricey free agent as ST begins shows a failed offseason.

#8 weird-O

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:42 PM

 
What if the choice is between both starters, or a starter and Cruz?

while the O's had a black hole at DH & 2B last season, offense wasn't the reason they missed the playoffs. so, I would rather see only 1 draft choice forfeited for a pitcher.


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#9 JoyinMudville

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:04 PM

I think the notion that the O's are bad at the draft no longer holds true.

 

Bundy

Gausman

Weiters

Matusz

 

were all first round picks. Two of those four make substantial contributions at the major league level and the other two are viewed as excellent prospects on the national level.

 

I don't know if I'd give up a pick for Cruz or Morales. I'd consider it for a very good pitcher.



#10 douger

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:33 PM

Well...

 

Bundy and Gausman have yet to prove anything. Matusz did not enjoy success in the role that he was drafted to fill, ie starter. 

 

Wieters, on the other hand, was projected as a five tool prospect. He's only brought four of them to his game thus far. Looking at the situation from that perspective, he's not been the success it was hoped he'd be.

 

That said, I wouldn't let him go for at least five more years. 

 

So foar as Cruz or Morales, I don't believe either is worth a first round pick. 



#11 larsanderson

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:48 PM

Matusz is a bust. He's not a top of the rotation starter with 20 win potential every year. He's a middle reliever, at best.

#12 Slidemaster

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:44 PM

I think the notion that the O's are bad at the draft no longer holds true.

Bundy
Gausman
Weiters
Matusz
 
were all first round picks. Two of those four make substantial contributions at the major league level and the other two are viewed as excellent prospects on the national level.

I don't know if I'd give up a pick for Cruz or Morales. I'd consider it for a very good pitcher.


Only Wieters was even close to his draft billing, and even he fell far short of expectations. Matusz is a colossal bust - you can get middle relievers anywhere in the draft, and they took one with the 4th overall pick. Bundy may never be what he was again and Gausman looked like a little leaguer last year. I just don't care about what the "consensus" is about them. Until they've done it, they haven't done it, and nobody on the Orioles has been the stud pitcher they were supposed to be since Mike Mussina.
The kids are alright.

#13 Jimmy Jazz

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:46 PM

What if the choice is between both starters, or a starter and Cruz?


I'd take a pitcher over Cruz for sure.

#14 JoyinMudville

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:56 AM

Only Wieters was even close to his draft billing, and even he fell far short of expectations. Matusz is a colossal bust - you can get middle relievers anywhere in the draft, and they took one with the 4th overall pick. Bundy may never be what he was again and Gausman looked like a little leaguer last year. I just don't care about what the "consensus" is about them. Until they've done it, they haven't done it, and nobody on the Orioles has been the stud pitcher they were supposed to be since Mike Mussina.

It's funny. In one post you say you don't care about what the consensus is about the O's and then in another post you're sobbing into your pillow because the Orioles are the butt of jokes on mlb radio.

 

Weiters hasn't hit for average but his power and run production have been among the top for mob catchers. His defense is excellent and he's entering his prime. He's going to have some breakout years.

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention Machado - also a first round draft pick.

 

You don't draft people to be super stars you draft people to help your club win at the major league level. Machado, Wieters, and Matsuz have all done that. Bundy and Gausman - the jury's still out but there's every indication that they'll be solid mlb pitchers.



#15 Slidemaster

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 02:35 AM

It's funny. In one post you say you don't care about what the consensus is about the O's and then in another post you're sobbing into your pillow because the Orioles are the butt of jokes on mlb radio.

There was no sobbing. I was just indicating that not one person in the industry was buying that the Orioles were being run as anything more than Petey's toy. And I was referring to the consensus in the industry on the O's' prospects, not their consensus on the shape the team is in.

Weiters hasn't hit for average but his power and run production have been among the top for mob catchers. His defense is excellent and he's entering his prime. He's going to have some breakout years.

Wieters. Wieters. Please spell his name right, if nothing else.

Wieters is not entering his prime. He's overworked, declining already, and has generally been a disappointment compared to what he was supposed to be if you believed the experts. He's entering his 28 season. Still waiting for the breakout.

Oh, and I forgot to mention Machado - also a first round draft pick.

Somehow I don't think that "developing" the guy that was probably close to major league ready out of high school should give the FO and their farm system a pass on their drafting and developing. Machado was probably helped by the fact that he didn't spend as much time languishing in the gulag that is the Orioles' player development program. They didn't get the chance to ruin him.

You don't draft people to be super stars you draft people to help your club win at the major league level. Machado, Wieters, and Matsuz have all done that. Bundy and Gausman - the jury's still out but there's every indication that they'll be solid mlb pitchers.

No matter how you spin it, Matusz has been a flop. If you told the fan base that the best he'd be is a lefty specialist when he was taken 4th overall, the outcry would have been worse than when Hobgood was taken. Somehow I'm not holding my breath that the O's will magically turn Bundy and Gausman into front line guys.

Edited by Slidemaster, 17 February 2014 - 02:37 AM.

The kids are alright.

#16 weird-O

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:33 AM

I think the notion that the O's are bad at the draft no longer holds true.

 

Bundy

Gausman

Weiters

Matusz

 

were all first round picks. Two of those four make substantial contributions at the major league level and the other two are viewed as excellent prospects on the national level.

 

I don't know if I'd give up a pick for Cruz or Morales. I'd consider it for a very good pitcher.

I agree with most of this. especially because you made it clear that Bundy & Gasusman are still TBD. but I can't get on board with adding Matusz to any list of good draft choices. he is a total bust. he was drafted to be a starter, not a lefty specialist. even by reliever standards, he blows. so they reserve him for possible lefty on lefty situations that may arise late in the game. otherwise, he can't be trusted.

 

that's an epic fail of a draft choice that is compounded by the fact that Buster Posey was available, and they didn't take him. 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#17 Gizmo

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:36 AM

I agree with most of this. especially because you made it clear that Bundy & Gasusman are still TBD. but I can't get on board with adding Matusz to any list of good draft choices. he is a total bust. he was drafted to be a starter, not a lefty specialist. even by reliever standards, he blows. so they reserve him for possible lefty on lefty situations that may arise late in the game. otherwise, he can't be trusted.

 

that's an epic fail of a draft choice that is compounded by the fact that Buster Posey was available, and they didn't take him. 

 

Unfortunately, this is the truth.


Edited by Gizmo, 17 February 2014 - 07:38 AM.


#18 weird-O

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:40 AM

there's a part of me that is looking forward to seeing Wieters leave town. because I will finally get some peace from the never ending whine-fest that he "never delivered on his potential".

 

he's among the top defensive catchers in the game, that is something everyone, across the sport, agrees on. and he's also one of the top offensive catchers. if I'm not mistaken, his stats, to date, are on par with the handful of HOF catchers.

 

there are aspects of his game that can be critiqued, but as a total player, he will be hard to replace. anyone who disagrees with that, doesn't understand how rare of a commodity we have in MW. 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#19 weird-O

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:52 AM

Wieters, on the other hand, was projected as a five tool prospect. He's only brought four of them to his game thus far. 

there's no way that can be right. one of the 5 tools is speed. he has never had speed, and I find it impossible to believe that any scout would have claimed MW to have above average speed.

 

I don't mean to sound condescending, but just in case your confusing the 5 tool, they are:

 

1) hits for power

2) hits for average

3) speed

4) defense

5) strong arm

 

5 tool players are super rare. even Mike Trout isn't a 5 tool player, because he doesn't have an above average arm. and Trout is putting up numbers that could make him one of the very, very elite players of all time.  ;)


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#20 Gizmo

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:23 AM

there's no way that can be right. one of the 5 tools is speed. he has never had speed, and I find it impossible to believe that any scout would have claimed MW to have above average speed.

 

I don't mean to sound condescending, but just in case your confusing the 5 tool, they are:

 

1) hits for power

2) hits for average

3) speed

4) defense

5) strong arm

 

5 tool players are super rare. even Mike Trout isn't a 5 tool player, because he doesn't have an above average arm. and Trout is putting up numbers that could make him one of the very, very elite players of all time.  ;)

 

Matt is damn near, or legitimately is, a '4 tool' player from the right side of the plate. As you said above, he is outstanding defensively. Offensively, his numbers from the left side are what drags him down, and unfortunately that is where he gets the majority of his at bats. 

 

2013 Splits

 

2013 Splits adjusted to 162 games

 

Last 3 years (2011-2013) splits

 

You can't look at those numbers, or even watch him play with any regularity, and not know that he is far better from the right side of the plate. Even without looking at the numbers, his swing is so much better looking from the right side. More compact with much better hip turn and body action. Many people will scoff at the idea, but I would at least try hitting from only the right side of the plate. If it doesn't work, so be it. If he continues to hit from the left hand side, then I think he needs a major restructuring of his swing from that side. 

 

Also, even though I have been one to criticize Wieters at times, he is definitely one of the top catchers in the game as is, and the O's are lucky to have him.






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