Jump to content



Recent headlines from The Baltimore Sun

Photo
- - - - -

O's should sign Putz


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 m3tan

m3tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 21 posts

Posted 22 June 2014 - 09:53 PM

The O's are still lacking a closer and need a reliable left handed setup man - Matusz is not the answer . Britton has been decent at closer but Friday was a fairly clear indicator that even the new and improved Britton is best suited as a left handed setup man. Putz has been a dominant closer in the past and is worth a flier. Yes he hasn't pitched well this year but we're talking a very small sample size. To me a 6.59 ERA means nothing when you consider he has 14 Ks and only allowed 1 HR in 13.2 innings. From 2010-13 he had an ERA in the 2s every year. I wouldn't immediately anoint Putz the closer. Sign him to an incentive laden minor league deal and give him 30 days or so the show he still has something in the tank. Very similar to what they are doing with Wolf.  It's obvious to me that Matusz is an unreliable left handed setup man. He's a liability to a contending team. So they need to replace him either with Wolf, or Britton by virtue or acquiring a real closer and shifting Zach back to a setup role.



#2 weird-O

weird-O

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13,369 posts
  • LocationI'm here from downtown, I'm here from Mitch and Murray.

Posted 23 June 2014 - 06:14 AM

it can't hurt to sign him to a minor league deal and see if he can get things together. 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#3 Struds

Struds

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,771 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:11 AM

Britton has been lights out pretty much every outing this year until Friday night. IIRC his other blown save resulted from 2 seeing eye ground balls and an error.  Until I see further proof that Friday's one inning was the norm and that the other 37 innings he's thrown this year were a fluke, I'll have confidence in him as the O's closer.



#4 weird-O

weird-O

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13,369 posts
  • LocationI'm here from downtown, I'm here from Mitch and Murray.

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:42 AM

Britton has been lights out pretty much every outing this year until Friday night. IIRC his other blown save resulted from 2 seeing eye ground balls and an error.  Until I see further proof that Friday's one inning was the norm and that the other 37 innings he's thrown this year were a fluke, I'll have confidence in him as the O's closer.

I agree. based on what we've seen so far, I don't have a problem with ZB in the closer role. 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#5 85Knight

85Knight

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,361 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:07 AM

Jumping on Britton after one bad outing is an overreaction. Matusz has struggled a little bit but his track record has been good enough to give him more time.

#6 TheJudgement

TheJudgement

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,285 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 10:58 AM

I still would prefer the committee

#7 Struds

Struds

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,771 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:18 AM

I still would prefer the committee

You mean based on match-ups and recent performance?  If so, I agree, but I think Britton remains the main guy.



#8 TheJudgement

TheJudgement

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,285 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:37 AM

You mean based on match-ups and recent performance? If so, I agree, but I think Britton remains the main guy.


Yes.
Britton sure has nasty stuff.

#9 TheJudgement

TheJudgement

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,285 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:59 PM

And now for the Eternal honest question. Don't we already have enough putz's on this team?
Hehehe

Edited by TheJudgement, 23 June 2014 - 01:00 PM.


#10 m3tan

m3tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 21 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 01:50 PM

I don't think I'm overreacting at all. I didn't say Britton isn't a serviceable closer, he's just not not ideally suited for it. The big problem with moving him to closer is that it solved one problem but created another. Britton, O'Day, and Webb are going to be completely gassed by the end of the year. Unlike 2012, this bullpen isn't 6 or 7 deep so fatigue is of much greater concern. There are only 3 guys I trust late in the game and Matusz isn't one of them. He's DREADFUL against right hand batters. He's also the only left handed option in the 6th-8th inning. So in high leverage situations, it's a no-brainer to pinch hit against him because Showalter has no more bullets to counter with and Matusz's faces far more right handers than he should. Have you seen his splits against righties? He turns an average hitter into Miguel Cabrera.

 

The O's bullpen is not as strong as it looks on paper because they are solid from the right side but have no trustworthy southpaw except Britton, who is now closing. There are too many situations that the opposing team can force a favorable matchup and Showalter has no counter move. Trading away Patton immediately after promoting Britton was a head scratching move. It created a gaping hole in the relief corps that they did nothing to fix over the last 30 days until recently signing Randy Wolf. It's no coincidence Matusz's ERA has ballooned since Britton was promoted. He's been tagged for 3 crushing home runs against righties in the past 3 weeks. He should not have even been out there.

 

Taking a flier on Putz, after signing Wolf, would be the next logical move IMO.



#11 85Knight

85Knight

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,361 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:46 PM

I don't think I'm overreacting at all. I didn't say Britton isn't a serviceable closer, he's just not not ideally suited for it. The big problem with moving him to closer is that it solved one problem but created another. Britton, O'Day, and Webb are going to be completely gassed by the end of the year. Unlike 2012, this bullpen isn't 6 or 7 deep so fatigue is of much greater concern. There are only 3 guys I trust late in the game and Matusz isn't one of them. He's DREADFUL against right hand batters. He's also the only left handed option in the 6th-8th inning. So in high leverage situations, it's a no-brainer to pinch hit against him because Showalter has no more bullets to counter with and Matusz's faces far more right handers than he should. Have you seen his splits against righties? He turns an average hitter into Miguel Cabrera.

The O's bullpen is not as strong as it looks on paper because they are solid from the right side but have no trustworthy southpaw except Britton, who is now closing. There are too many situations that the opposing team can force a favorable matchup and Showalter has no counter move. Trading away Patton immediately after promoting Britton was a head scratching move. It created a gaping hole in the relief corps that they did nothing to fix over the last 30 days until recently signing Randy Wolf. It's no coincidence Matusz's ERA has ballooned since Britton was promoted. He's been tagged for 3 crushing home runs against righties in the past 3 weeks. He should not have even been out there.

Taking a flier on Putz, after signing Wolf, would be the next logical move IMO.

I hear all the time that the O's bullpen is going to be fried by the All Star break but the stats don't back that up. I've said it before that Buck and Duquette do a great job of shuffling pitchers back and forth from the minors. If you look at the stats none of the O's relievers are anywhere near the top of innings pitched. In fact Buck has had to put pitchers in because they hadn't pitched in awhile more often than not.

As for Britton I don't know how you take him out of his role when his ERA is less than 1.00. If it ain't broke..... We might need a left handed set up guy who can get righties out too but we need a closer a lot more. I'm not knocking your idea but I think Britton will have to crash and burn before he's taken out of that role.

Edited by 85Knight, 23 June 2014 - 07:54 PM.


#12 weird-O

weird-O

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13,369 posts
  • LocationI'm here from downtown, I'm here from Mitch and Murray.

Posted 24 June 2014 - 06:30 AM

As for Britton I don't know how you take him out of his role when his ERA is less than 1.00. 

because everyone expects every closer to be Mariano. 

 

if only it was that easy  :)


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#13 Far from home

Far from home

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 15,743 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:02 AM

Putz is still a guy to take a flier on, regardless of anything else. I like Britton right now, too.
Ideological gravy trains lead to poor decisions.
Learn from the last President, and make this next era one of rebuilding what has been torn down.
Instead of being loyal to your party, be loyal to your country and your people.

#14 aurelius

aurelius

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 72 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:38 AM

The whole idea of a closer irritates the heck out of me.

 

It started so innocently:

LaRussa/Duncan decided to convert Eckersley to a late inning relief specialist  Only because Eck had always been a starter, they didn't want him coming into games without his normal warm-up routine. So he became strictly a 9th inning specialist. And it worked wonderfully.

 

Over the years a few more guys became dominant closers. Emphasis on the word FEW. And yet, ever since that happened, it has become the unwritten rule that every manager must set up their bullpen like they have an Eckersley or Rivera out there. It's shockingly incompetent but every manager now does it. Why? Because every other manager does it, that's why! I think of all managers, Buck is the one who disappoints me the most on this. I can understand rookie managers like Trembley "playing it by the book", but Buck is no rookie manager. And yet, there he is using his bullpen like every other manager. He did it with Johnson and it worked temporarily. He did it with Hunter temporarily. Now he's doing it with Britton. You just need a closer, give someone (anyone) that role, and trot him out there until the inevitable happens, You do this even if you don't really have a closer. It might as well be in the rule book.


Edited by aurelius, 24 June 2014 - 08:39 AM.


#15 Far from home

Far from home

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 15,743 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:58 AM

 

The whole idea of a closer irritates the heck out of me.
 
It started so innocently:
LaRussa/Duncan decided to convert Eckersley to a late inning relief specialist  Only because Eck had always been a starter, they didn't want him coming into games without his normal warm-up routine. So he became strictly a 9th inning specialist. And it worked wonderfully.
 
Over the years a few more guys became dominant closers. Emphasis on the word FEW. And yet, ever since that happened, it has become the unwritten rule that every manager must set up their bullpen like they have an Eckersley or Rivera out there. It's shockingly incompetent but every manager now does it. Why? Because every other manager does it, that's why! I think of all managers, Buck is the one who disappoints me the most on this. I can understand rookie managers like Trembley "playing it by the book", but Buck is no rookie manager. And yet, there he is using his bullpen like every other manager. He did it with Johnson and it worked temporarily. He did it with Hunter temporarily. Now he's doing it with Britton. You just need a closer, give someone (anyone) that role, and trot him out there until the inevitable happens, You do this even if you don't really have a closer. It might as well be in the rule book.


There were pitchers before that who were closers...your history is a bit lacking.
Ideological gravy trains lead to poor decisions.
Learn from the last President, and make this next era one of rebuilding what has been torn down.
Instead of being loyal to your party, be loyal to your country and your people.

#16 aurelius

aurelius

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 72 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 10:01 AM

Well yes, there were "closers" if you define it as anyone who finishes the game as a "closer". So you have made a brilliant argument. Without even providing a single example. I'm talking about the modern definition, how it has evolved. Your comprehension skills are a bit lacking.


Edited by aurelius, 24 June 2014 - 10:02 AM.


#17 Struds

Struds

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,771 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 10:33 AM

 
There were pitchers before that who were closers...your history is a bit lacking.

 

 

Well yes, there were "closers" if you define it as anyone who finishes the game as a "closer". So you have made a brilliant argument. Without even providing a single example. I'm talking about the modern definition, how it has evolved. Your comprehension skills are a bit lacking.

"Finishers" may have been a better description before Oakland kicked off the "speciality" trend that now dominates the use of bullpens.  My memory is hazy, but I think guys like Stu Miller were called on to pitch the last 2-3 innings somewhat regularly, yet no one referred to them as anything but relief pitchers.



#18 m3tan

m3tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 21 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 11:43 AM

As for Britton I don't know how you take him out of his role when his ERA is less than 1.00. If it ain't broke..... We might need a left handed set up guy who can get righties out too but we need a closer a lot more. I'm not knocking your idea but I think Britton will have to crash and burn before he's taken out of that role.

 

As a long reliever and left handed setup man he was absolutely dominant. Now that he's a closer and facing more righties and pinch hitters his ERA is 2.65. That said ERA is totally meaningless for a closer anyway. The only thing that matters is Sv%. League average is usually 85%. Britton is 9 for 11 so he's slightly under league average. He's 4 for 5 in 1-run save situations.

 

I agree Britton needs to crash and burn first before we take him out of that role, but after Friday, this week he's probably one more bad outing away from causing a stir. He doesn't exactly have the track record to fall back on, hence Putz as an insurance policy.


Edited by m3tan, 24 June 2014 - 11:49 AM.


#19 m3tan

m3tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 21 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 11:48 AM

The whole idea of a closer irritates the heck out of me.

 

It started so innocently:

LaRussa/Duncan decided to convert Eckersley to a late inning relief specialist  Only because Eck had always been a starter, they didn't want him coming into games without his normal warm-up routine. So he became strictly a 9th inning specialist. And it worked wonderfully.

 

Over the years a few more guys became dominant closers. Emphasis on the word FEW. And yet, ever since that happened, it has become the unwritten rule that every manager must set up their bullpen like they have an Eckersley or Rivera out there. It's shockingly incompetent but every manager now does it. Why? Because every other manager does it, that's why! I think of all managers, Buck is the one who disappoints me the most on this. I can understand rookie managers like Trembley "playing it by the book", but Buck is no rookie manager. And yet, there he is using his bullpen like every other manager. He did it with Johnson and it worked temporarily. He did it with Hunter temporarily. Now he's doing it with Britton. You just need a closer, give someone (anyone) that role, and trot him out there until the inevitable happens, You do this even if you don't really have a closer. It might as well be in the rule book.

 

Totally agree but I have to make my arguments for player acquisitions and roles based on what I know Showalter will do, which is declare a defined closer. The same exact argument can be made with punting in football. It's been mathematically proven to be a bad move if you are outside your own 20 and it's less than 4th and 10. Yet not a single coach would think twice about punting on 4th and 5 at their own 40 unless it's very late and their trailing...



#20 TheJudgement

TheJudgement

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,285 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 11:54 AM

Don't these guys have matchup stats ? Isn't that what they should go by when selecting who will go in and relieve?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users