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ms maggie

Make America Stupid Again

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What parents? The parents of foreign students?

 

Read the link before jumping into the conversation. This is about the dropoff in the applications of foreign students to US engineering schools.

 

"U.S. graduate programs in engineering, Science has learned, are seeing a sharp drop this year in the number of applications from international students."

 

Maybe you should read the article before commenting. These are graduate engineering programs. Candidates who attend these programs have solid math and science skills that were developed high school and 4 years of college before entering into a masters program. Foreign students are needed to fill the slots because Americans are not making the grades in math and science. That is a public school issue.

Edited by flyboy56

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Its no surprise kids do not want to go into the sciences. They are the bad guys in every movie and tv show, and are quickly becoming a hated class. Even while in school having an open inclination towards science invites bullying from rubes.

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Its no surprise kids do not want to go into the sciences. They are the bad guys in every movie and tv show, and are quickly becoming a hated class. Even while in school having an open inclination towards science invites bullying from rubes.

 

That is until the end of the movie when the scientists prove everyone wrong. 

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Its no surprise kids do not want to go into the sciences. They are the bad guys in every movie and tv show, and are quickly becoming a hated class. Even while in school having an open inclination towards science invites bullying from rubes.

 For anyone that needs a primer on what Calamari is talking about. Just watch a few episodes of The Big Bang Theory. What he is saying and what the show verifies is very true.

 

Years back it used to be if you were not jock you got looked down on. Now it is being smart.

 

Sad

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I recruit at a number of top CS/EECS programs (for my company). I see and talk to a lot of well qualified undergrad and grad students. Filling graduate engineering slots is, first and foremost, about accepting the best students - which includes both academics, and any prior research experience (ie, Summer internships, undergrad research projects, etc). Many of these foreign applicants attended schools/programs that, quite frankly, those at the US University know very little about, and certainly have no way to assess the quality of their education. If they were a foreign student who first went to a US undergraduate program in the US, then that is a different matter. altogether. The point being - most US Universities will give some preferential consideration to the US student, and that is especially true if the nature of their research relies on DoD funding (that is the largest % of funding sources). But the fact of the matter is, and as long as the economy is strong, more and more American students elect not to go to grad school for the simple fact - they can get a good paying job (eg, $80K-$110K) with only a BS in EE or CS. Furthermore, more and more employers (I am one) would rather higher a freshly minted student with a BS degree, and train them on things important to the work he/she is hired for. Getting a Masters is really a waste of time for many high tech employers. It amounts to nothing more than maybe 6 more courses, of which some of them will have no relevance to the job.

 

American students are opting out of grad school not so much because of grades, but because they can start right now, with a good salary, so that they can get on with the rest of their life. Yes, a person with a Master's degree might come in with a slightly higher salary, but, they are also out 2 years of salary plus any bonuses or stock options that happen during those two years. Furthermore, the 2 years of direct work experience (compared to 2 years of grad school for a masters), puts that employee (with raises, etc) on par, or maybe even ahead, of the new Master's hire.

 

Follow the $$

 

Hey ...110K? Contact me....for that kind of cash I will come out of retirement. If you think I am kidding I am not.

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Its no surprise kids do not want to go into the sciences. They are the bad guys in every movie and tv show, and are quickly becoming a hated class. Even while in school having an open inclination towards science invites bullying from rubes.

 

Someone uses one as an avatar ......

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Smart enough, yes, but are foreign engineering students subjected to the abomination of Common Core Math?

 

What specifically is wrong with common core math?

 

Have you ever looked at a typical lesson plan for a CCM class? Look one up. Then we can talk. Without that foundation ...it would be above your pay scale and a waste of time trying to explain it. ;):D

Edited by Guido2

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"U.S. graduate programs in engineering, Science has learned, are seeing a sharp drop this year in the number of applications from international students."

Maybe you should read the article before commenting. These are graduate engineering programs. Candidates who attend these programs have solid math and science skills that were developed high school and 4 years of college before entering into a masters program. Foreign students are needed to fill the slots because Americans are not making the grades in math and science. That is a public school issue.

The point of the article is WHY the number of foreign student apps is declining.

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Have you ever looked at a typical lesson plan for a CCM class? Look one up. Then we can talk. Without that foundation ...it would be above your pay scale and a waste of time trying to explain it. ;):D

http://asiasociety.org/education/global-roots-common-core-state-standards

 

I've looked at some of the high school CC math materials. It is way above my pay grade and I have an MBA-- not close to engineering math I know, but jeez, I could barely follow this high school stuff!

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It's funny(ironic) that at 57 I get more calls from headhunters than ever. I may ride this well past when I planned to retire.

 

(Bear with me for a moment here) My field is Mechanical Engr and I graduated in 1984, (ironic year that). When I was in school it was common to work the summers. Monsanto (elemental phosphorus plant) let me work the 4 summers I was in school. This was the norm back then. I learned a lot in that system and it helped me with practical experience, as well as letting me make almost enough money in 4 months to pay my way as i went along, (school I went to was on quarters then, most now are on semesters). Some went on "co-op" for a year at a time with employers and many went to work with the company that co-oped with them. I never really wanted to take a year off.

 

 Expanding business opportunities require bodies, so I've been on a few recruiting trips lately. It's changed. These kids have excellent academic credentials but little practical aptitude. Hands on stuff is not their strong point, but there are some exceptions. The MEs kinda get apprehensive when you tell them they've got to know PLC ladder logic and relay logic to work in manufacturing.

 

 

I've got a good one for the coming year though, EE junior, naturalized citizen Egyptian Coptic kid. Great kid, grooves on the hands-on stuff too.

Edited by Wild Eyed Southern Boy

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The point of the article is WHY the number of foreign student apps is declining.

 

Given the amount of overseas industrial development, I wonder if it's a case of jobs being closer to home.

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Given the amount of overseas industrial development, I wonder if it's a case of jobs being closer to home.

A 30% drop in one year?

 

A slow erosion I would go with you.

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http://asiasociety.org/education/global-roots-common-core-state-standards

 

I've looked at some of the high school CC math materials. It is way above my pay grade and I have an MBA-- not close to engineering math I know, but jeez, I could barely follow this high school stuff!

:) tough stuff for the college bound...and even for everyday students. So how come most younger addults can't balance a check book.... as an MBA I am sure you can appreciate that comment. :D .

 

But what I find 'crazy' is primary and middle school curriculum. If you never looked at it...in a nutshell; And the following will sound crazy but.....

When we were in school 2+2=4 period. Now, the student must have a feel and understand the 2 and the significance of the = sign, then feel good about the 4 and how it came about. A bit of an exaggeration for sure. But and I saw several examples of such nonsense.

 

To teach a student how to add there were literally pages of guidelines of feel good nonsense that had to be followed by the instructor, documented by the instructor evaluated by the instructor. All so in the higher up lib/dem/feel good Admin . But the real reason Fed funding. PERIOD.

 

I dunno when I was growing up the lesson plan was; you have two pencils and your friend gives you two more pencils how many pencils do you have. One line lesson plan not 5 pages.

 

I, by far was not the sharpest knife in the draw when it came to math...no 'gifted' for me like on The Big Bang Theory. But some how, only working with pencils in the beginning I was able to master Calc III. Advanced Trig. and other 'weird' maths necessary for Computer Science (IT).

 

Bottom line I imagine foreign students may not 'feel' the numbers as our students are required. But they sure and heck know how to derive a solution to a formula much more rapidly.

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The point of the article is WHY the number of foreign student apps is declining.

 

Maybe to force our education system to start better preparing our students for engineering programs instead of relying on foreign students?

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Maybe to force our education system to start better preparing our students for engineering programs instead of relying on foreign students?

No. Trump.

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:) tough stuff for the college bound...and even for everyday students. So how come most younger addults can't balance a check book.... as an MBA I am sure you can appreciate that comment. :D .

 

But what I find 'crazy' is primary and middle school curriculum. If you never looked at it...in a nutshell; And the following will sound crazy but.....

When we were in school 2+2=4 period. Now, the student must have a feel and understand the 2 and the significance of the = sign, then feel good about the 4 and how it came about. A bit of an exaggeration for sure. But and I saw several examples of such nonsense.

 

To teach a student how to add there were literally pages of guidelines of feel good nonsense that had to be followed by the instructor, documented by the instructor evaluated by the instructor. All so in the higher up lib/dem/feel good Admin . But the real reason Fed funding. PERIOD.

 

I dunno when I was growing up the lesson plan was; you have two pencils and your friend gives you two more pencils how many pencils do you have. One line lesson plan not 5 pages.

 

I, by far was not the sharpest knife in the draw when it came to math...no 'gifted' for me like on The Big Bang Theory. But some how, only working with pencils in the beginning I was able to master Calc III. Advanced Trig. and other 'weird' maths necessary for Computer Science (IT).

 

Bottom line I imagine foreign students may not 'feel' the numbers as our students are required. But they sure and heck know how to derive a solution to a formula much more rapidly.

If you read the link I posted, CC math is based on international curriculua. (I only knew this as my sister in law is an educator in Singapore and was telling me about this once.)

 

My nephew is finishing up his PhD in physics. He is a big proponent of the CC math stuff. That's one example which means nothing. But I can't dismiss the notion that I find it weird and questionable simply because it's unfamiliar to me. And math scores are starting to turn around, finally.

 

Who knows.

 

PS:my hat's off to you!! Calculus I nearly made me open a vein!!

Edited by ms maggie

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Engineering programs report big drop in foreign applications.

 

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/drop-foreign-applicants-worries-us-engineering-schools

 

Who needs top science talent? Pffft.

 

How about adding a little perspective to your rant?

 

How many foreign students apply to U.S. engineering schools?

 

How many are accepted?

 

How many graduate?

 

How many that do graduate return to their native country?

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Hi there, it has been a long time.  How ya doing?

 

It amazes me how many people (my daughter-in-law and her family for an example) love those reality tv shows and actually believe them.  I watch very little tv, usually just NCIS, NCIS NOLA, and The Big Bang Theory on network tv.  If not for PBS, National Geo and BBC, my tv wouldn't be turned on half as much as it is.

TV is mostly a wasteland.  I try to record a few programs that interest me or sports but if nothing has been recorded, I'm usually going round and round the dial seeing one stupid, low brow show after another and then give up.  If TV is a reflection of our moral and intellectual standards, then we're in sad shape.

Edited by veritas

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 If TV is a reflection of our moral and intellectual standards, then we're in sad shape.

 

I prefer to finger "social" media - Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, World Star Hip-Hop, etc.

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If you read the link I posted, CC math is based on international curriculua. (I only knew this as my sister in law is an educator in Singapore and was telling me about this once.)

 

My nephew is finishing up his PhD in physics. He is a big proponent of the CC math stuff. That's one example which means nothing. But I can't dismiss the notion that I find it weird and questionable simply because it's unfamiliar to me. And math scores are starting to turn around, finally.

 

Who knows.

 

PS:my hat's off to you!! Calculus I nearly made me open a vein!!

 

Sorry I guess I didn't pick up on the inter-nationality etc. You have the advantage with insider information. :D

 

Again. CC is geared (as I understand it) to A) having schools across the nation teach the same stuff B)get more student introduced to 'higher' math thinking  in prep for college.

 

Now how the US has bastardized it with 'feeling the numbers'  in primary and middle schools I will never get. I think consistency of what is being taught is good. But and this is a big but (note only one t) I do have a real problem with the politicos thinking that everyone should be prepping for college. Not just in math but every subject.

 

Which leads to, frustration for the students and teachers, especially in PC proper mixed level classes,. Smart students get bored, slower students get frustrated and give up since teacher have to hit the middle ground somehow. I know....I lived it as a teacher.

 

Your PhD loved it because (I assume) that he was in advanced classes and it was a challenge he enjoyed. I am also guessing he was 'wired' for math. Unfortunately most, myself included it was a struggle.

 

Thank you very much for the complement about Calc. Funny thing though, in the real world (IT business) I can't recall one time where it was useful. My near Waterloo was Linear Algebra. If you are not familiar with it is NOT HS Algebra....believe me. In a nutshell it using math in a matrix format and formulas in conjunction with to predict probability of xy or z happening. Think statistics in a scientific environment on Hulk Hogan type steroids. :D

 

Sorry I hope I didn't bore you.

Edited by Guido2

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TV is mostly a wasteland.  I try to record a few programs that interest me or sports but if nothing has been recorded, I'm usually going round and round the dial seeing one stupid, low brow show after another and then give up.  If TV is a reflection of our moral and intellectual standards, then we're in sad shape.

 

I agree that TV is mostly a wasteland. And like you and others here we dig to find something worthwhile.

I will propose that it just appears to be worse recently only because there are soooooooo many channels available hence they have to be filled with something. Back in the day we had stupid shows; Archie Bunker, The Jeffersons, Welcome back Kotter and so on. But there were only maybe 5 channels. For intellegent stuff we had Uncle Walter (pure news no BS) and the real 60 minutes.

 

Now we have hundreds of channels with crap.

 

To put it another way. Back in the day we had a drip drip drip of stupid....now....a fire hose..

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I agree that TV is mostly a wasteland. And like you and others here we dig to find something worthwhile.

I will propose that it just appears to be worse recently only because there are soooooooo many channels available hence they have to be filled with something. Back in the day we had stupid shows; Archie Bunker, The Jeffersons, Welcome back Kotter and so on. But there were only maybe 5 channels. For intellegent stuff we had Uncle Walter (pure news no BS) and the real 60 minutes.

 

Now we have hundreds of channels with crap.

 

To put it another way. Back in the day we had a drip drip drip of stupid....now....a fire hose..

 

You surf through 1,000+ channels and find nothing to watch that is even semi-intelligent.   :angry:

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Maybe to force our education system to start better preparing our students for engineering programs instead of relying on foreign students?

"Force", are guns involved in your proposal? :P:D

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"Force", are guns involved in your proposal? :P:D

 

The Feds and ahhhhh leader of education have been forcing for years...it's called funding.

 

But not amount of money can force students to study and become learned. See the BC school system as an example. Only parenting can do that. I need not say more. It has already been said.

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