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Make America Stupid Again


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#41 ms maggie

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 12:44 PM

You know damn well America can't find enough American engineers to fill the positions. Students are scoring low in math and science in public schools. This is why the US has to recruit foreign engineers.


All the more reason to oppose Trump's stupid ban.

You clearly didn't read the article.

#42 SmarterThanYou

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:43 PM

You know damn well America can't find enough American engineers to fill the positions. Students are scoring low in math and science in public schools. This is why the US has to recruit foreign engineers.



The problem is less about the educational quality, than it is with many American students having little desire to seek a career in engineering. Studying to become an engineer takes a major commitment in time/effort, that many American kids are simply not willing to make. Furthermore, the common stereotype of engineers being nerdy, or introverts is often off-putting to many American kids.

The AP courses (eg, math, physics, chemistry, etc) now taught in most public high schools easily prepares these kids to do well in engineering curriculum. The question is - do they have the mindset, and are they willing to log the long hours needed to complete their degree? The engineering drop out rate is pretty high, but it has less to do with grades than it is Freshmen finding out it's a lot more work than they thought it would be.

As long as the economy is booming, most American kids see an easier, and potentially more lucrative career path in business, pre-law or the medical/biology fields. But when economic times hit, engineering jobs remain in demand.

#43 banner1124

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:47 PM

To much T.V. crap is the problem. 

No it's not.  It's an absolute cop out to blame everything on too much TV, like TV doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.


*****HAIL TO THE REDSKINS*****

#44 SmarterThanYou

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:53 PM



That would be "too much TV", not "to much TV"

Just sayin'

#45 banner1124

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:55 PM

That would be "too much TV", not "to much TV"

Just sayin'

hahahahahahahaha :D :D :D


*****HAIL TO THE REDSKINS*****

#46 Guido2

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 07:47 PM

You know damn well America can't find enough American engineers to fill the positions. Students are scoring low in math and science in public schools. This is why the US has to recruit foreign engineers. 

 

Which students are those....ooooooohhhh.

 

Hmmmmm wonder what the stats would be if you threw out the low performing areas like cities what the numbers would be. Much highter and even higher if educational systems didn't insist on putting everyone (low and high) performers in the same class. Look at the stats a selective AP public schools etc. you will see some amazingly high marks.

 

I taught Advanced IT classes (Cisco) at such a school....talk about some sharp kids. Most were at 3rd year college easy.

 

But I also stand by my earlier statement. Engineering isn't glamorous AND unlike other professions upgrading ones skills on almost a daily basis is required. Something that I believe is not in the average students DNA in the US.


Edited by Guido2, 16 February 2017 - 07:48 PM.


#47 flyboy56

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 07:51 PM

All the more reason to oppose Trump's stupid ban.

You clearly didn't read the article.

 

All the more reason to give parents a choice where to send their kids. 



#48 flyboy56

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 07:55 PM

Which students are those....ooooooohhhh.

 

Hmmmmm wonder what the stats would be if you threw out the low performing areas like cities what the numbers would be. Much highter and even higher if educational systems didn't insist on putting everyone (low and high) performers in the same class. Look at the stats a selective AP public schools etc. you will see some amazingly high marks.

 

I taught Advanced IT classes (Cisco) at such a school....talk about some sharp kids. Most were at 3rd year college easy.

 

But I also stand by my earlier statement. Engineering isn't glamorous AND unlike other professions upgrading ones skills on almost a daily basis is required. Something that I believe is not in the average students DNA in the US.

So America's DNA has the US damned when it comes to engineers? Sorry but I don't believe that for one minute. That is too simple of a reason and gives educators a reason to give up on the students. 



#49 SmarterThanYou

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 07:58 PM

All the more reason to give parents a choice where to send their kids.


As far as public schools are concerned - Parents have the choice based on where they elect to live. I remember my parents moving so I could attend a certain school.

But in the end, it's really about the parents. Parents that depend on schools 100% to raise and teach their kids, usually end up with sub-par performances. Parents that mentor and closely monitor their kids progress, even in poorly performing schools, have kids that go on to college and do well.

#50 ms maggie

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 08:03 PM

All the more reason to give parents a choice where to send their kids.


What parents? The parents of foreign students?

Read the link before jumping into the conversation. This is about the dropoff in the applications of foreign students to US engineering schools.

#51 volperdinger

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:21 PM

Americans aren't smart enough to become engineers?


Smart enough, yes, but are foreign engineering students subjected to the abomination of Common Core Math?

Edited by volperdinger, 16 February 2017 - 09:22 PM.


#52 Marshan Man

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:23 PM

Probably not, are foreign engineering students subjected to the abomination of Common Core Math?

What specifically is wrong with common core math?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]America Is Back! :rwb:

#53 SmarterThanYou

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:24 PM

AP math?

#54 Guido2

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 11:43 AM

So America's DNA has the US damned when it comes to engineers? Sorry but I don't believe that for one minute. That is too simple of a reason and gives educators a reason to give up on the students. 

 

Oh there are a lot of students that don't have that DNA that is for sure. And for the most part GOOD educators...the ones that do not just baby sit and go through the motions...DON'T GIVE UP. If anything they tried even harder to help students that show potential.

 

In conjunction with that...an educator (and I mean in the trenches teachers) do not get the opportunity to cherry pick the students they get. The higher up educators (so called) like Admin. are the decision makers on that one. Also, it is the students and their parents that 'decide' the students career path. Not the teachers.

 

So if Johnny decides math is too hard and prefers to study the arts. The math/engineering/science teachers have absolutely NO opportunity to persuade that student to apply his talents in those fields.

 

Again, I taught for nearly 40 years. In my last go around teaching IT at an AP school I had this incrediable student. She could look at a complex computer matrix or program and figure it out in no time. Wow what a future this young lady has and the earning capabilites associated with it.

 

Well she also happened to be pretty good at art too. Not computer graphics...old fashion charcoal pencils and paint. Guess what? She switched majors to art. What is the old saying about starving artists. But it didn't matter.

 

On a personnel level. I LOVED physical education, sports sciences and coaching. Which came easily to me. However, I and my parents realized while I was in college that career wise and financially IT was the way to go.

 

Sometimes one has to do things that are practical rather than feel good to succeed. When I refer to DNA I mean that now a days the reverse seems to hold true for a majority of the student population in the US.

 

Not trying to convince anyone....it is just my thoughts and observations.



#55 flyboy56

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:07 PM

What parents? The parents of foreign students?

Read the link before jumping into the conversation. This is about the dropoff in the applications of foreign students to US engineering schools.

 

"U.S. graduate programs in engineering, Science has learned, are seeing a sharp drop this year in the number of applications from international students."

 

Maybe you should read the article before commenting. These are graduate engineering programs. Candidates who attend these programs have solid math and science skills that were developed high school and 4 years of college before entering into a masters program. Foreign students are needed to fill the slots because Americans are not making the grades in math and science. That is a public school issue.


Edited by flyboy56, 17 February 2017 - 12:07 PM.


#56 Calamari

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:15 PM

Its no surprise kids do not want to go into the sciences. They are the bad guys in every movie and tv show, and are quickly becoming a hated class. Even while in school having an open inclination towards science invites bullying from rubes.
"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."
~George Washington


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#57 flyboy56

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:17 PM

Its no surprise kids do not want to go into the sciences. They are the bad guys in every movie and tv show, and are quickly becoming a hated class. Even while in school having an open inclination towards science invites bullying from rubes.

 

That is until the end of the movie when the scientists prove everyone wrong. 



#58 SmarterThanYou

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 01:03 PM

"U.S. graduate programs in engineering, Science has learned, are seeing a sharp drop this year in the number of applications from international students."
 
Maybe you should read the article before commenting. These are graduate engineering programs. Candidates who attend these programs have solid math and science skills that were developed high school and 4 years of college before entering into a masters program. Foreign students are needed to fill the slots because Americans are not making the grades in math and science. That is a public school issue.


I recruit at a number of top CS/EECS programs (for my company). I see and talk to a lot of well qualified undergrad and grad students. Filling graduate engineering slots is, first and foremost, about accepting the best students - which includes both academics, and any prior research experience (ie, Summer internships, undergrad research projects, etc). Many of these foreign applicants attended schools/programs that, quite frankly, those at the US University know very little about, and certainly have no way to assess the quality of their education. If they were a foreign student who first went to a US undergraduate program in the US, then that is a different matter. altogether. The point being - most US Universities will give some preferential consideration to the US student, and that is especially true if the nature of their research relies on DoD funding (that is the largest % of funding sources). But the fact of the matter is, and as long as the economy is strong, more and more American students elect not to go to grad school for the simple fact - they can get a good paying job (eg, $80K-$110K) with only a BS in EE or CS. Furthermore, more and more employers (I am one) would rather higher a freshly minted student with a BS degree, and train them on things important to the work he/she is hired for. Getting a Masters is really a waste of time for many high tech employers. It amounts to nothing more than maybe 6 more courses, of which some of them will have no relevance to the job.

American students are opting out of grad school not so much because of grades, but because they can start right now, with a good salary, so that they can get on with the rest of their life. Yes, a person with a Master's degree might come in with a slightly higher salary, but, they are also out 2 years of salary plus any bonuses or stock options that happen during those two years. Furthermore, the 2 years of direct work experience (compared to 2 years of grad school for a masters), puts that employee (with raises, etc) on par, or maybe even ahead, of the new Master's hire.

Follow the $$

Edited by SmarterThanYou, 17 February 2017 - 01:06 PM.


#59 Guido2

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 05:16 PM

Its no surprise kids do not want to go into the sciences. They are the bad guys in every movie and tv show, and are quickly becoming a hated class. Even while in school having an open inclination towards science invites bullying from rubes.

 For anyone that needs a primer on what Calamari is talking about. Just watch a few episodes of The Big Bang Theory. What he is saying and what the show verifies is very true.

 

Years back it used to be if you were not jock you got looked down on. Now it is being smart.

 

Sad



#60 Guido2

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 05:23 PM

I recruit at a number of top CS/EECS programs (for my company). I see and talk to a lot of well qualified undergrad and grad students. Filling graduate engineering slots is, first and foremost, about accepting the best students - which includes both academics, and any prior research experience (ie, Summer internships, undergrad research projects, etc). Many of these foreign applicants attended schools/programs that, quite frankly, those at the US University know very little about, and certainly have no way to assess the quality of their education. If they were a foreign student who first went to a US undergraduate program in the US, then that is a different matter. altogether. The point being - most US Universities will give some preferential consideration to the US student, and that is especially true if the nature of their research relies on DoD funding (that is the largest % of funding sources). But the fact of the matter is, and as long as the economy is strong, more and more American students elect not to go to grad school for the simple fact - they can get a good paying job (eg, $80K-$110K) with only a BS in EE or CS. Furthermore, more and more employers (I am one) would rather higher a freshly minted student with a BS degree, and train them on things important to the work he/she is hired for. Getting a Masters is really a waste of time for many high tech employers. It amounts to nothing more than maybe 6 more courses, of which some of them will have no relevance to the job.

American students are opting out of grad school not so much because of grades, but because they can start right now, with a good salary, so that they can get on with the rest of their life. Yes, a person with a Master's degree might come in with a slightly higher salary, but, they are also out 2 years of salary plus any bonuses or stock options that happen during those two years. Furthermore, the 2 years of direct work experience (compared to 2 years of grad school for a masters), puts that employee (with raises, etc) on par, or maybe even ahead, of the new Master's hire.

Follow the $$

 

Hey ...110K? Contact me....for that kind of cash I will come out of retirement. If you think I am kidding I am not.






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