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Rosenthal has taken his annual dump on the O's


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#1 weird-O

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 07:17 AM

This time he's going after Brady, and painting him as an organizational cancer, and Pete's clubhouse spy. 

 

http://www.foxsports...-debate-032017 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#2 jamesdean

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:01 AM

I found it to be a fair article, with only Wallace seemingly having a problem with Anderson.  I seriously doubt he's a cancer in the organization and every team needs a guy like him to assist in areas the GM/Manager just don't have time to deal with.  That being said, there's no secret that Angelos couldn't stand Rosenthal and I'm sure he would interpret the article as similar to the ones that use to irritate him.  Other than that, I didn't read anything that was overly slanderous. 



#3 russsnyder

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:10 AM

Thanks for posting the article.

 

I have a different perspective on the article.

 

I think that Rosenthal painted a fair picture of the dynamic that exists between Duquette, Buck, and Brady.

 

Further, I think that it is unusual that a front office member has a locker in the players' locker room and I can see where some players

 

may not be comfortable with the situation. Most importantly, I can see where Wallace and Chiti may have considered his handling

 

of Wright to be counter productive. Anderson has a very unique role on this team and I think that as time goes on He will probably

 

settle into a more traditional front office role. Until that time comes i think that the people who count most ( ownership, Duquette, & Showalter)

 

have done a good job of working with Anderson.



#4 Pickle20

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:20 AM

I think it's all much ado about nothing. There's tension in every work place and people may be resentful of Brady and perhaps rightfully so because of his relationship with Pete.

 

I also don't know if Brady should be working with pitchers outside of S&C. Brady, for as good as he may have been in HS and college as a pitcher, wasn't one in pro ball. Leave that to the guys who are hired to help pitchers -- like pitching coaches.

 

That said I believe Brady is a complete asset to this team and I think Ken has an axe to grind and went out of his way to spin this in a negative light when I don't see it that way.

 

Whatever tension there is in Baltimore doesn't seem to get in the way of winning. The question is, has it gotten in the way of winning a WS? And I don't think it has, either.


Edited by Pickle20, 20 March 2017 - 09:21 AM.


#5 weird-O

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:37 AM

I think it's all much ado about nothing. There's tension in every work place and people may be resentful of Brady and perhaps rightfully so because of his relationship with Pete.

 

I also don't know if Brady should be working with pitchers outside of S&C. Brady, for as good as he may have been in HS and college as a pitcher, wasn't one in pro ball. Leave that to the guys who are hired to help pitchers -- like pitching coaches.

 

That said I believe Brady is a complete asset to this team and I think Ken has an axe to grind and went out of his way to spin this in a negative light when I don't see it that way.

 

Whatever tension there is in Baltimore doesn't seem to get in the way of winning. The question is, has it gotten in the way of winning a WS? And I don't think it has, either.

I got the same impression from the article. Like russ and jd, I think there were definitely some complimentary points that added balance to the article. But He was absolutely writing it from a negative perspective. He tried really hard to make Wieters comments sound like Brady's presence was a really big deal. I didn't think MW was saying anything more than articulating that players like the clubhouse to be their's. So why did Kenny try to drive home the fact that Brady has a locker? It's not as if he's hanging out with the players and taking notes. But that was the idea he was trying to press.

 

Wallace's opinion carries weight with me. But not Chiti. He said he left the O's because of Brady. That's not what happened at all. He wasn't offered an extension. In fact, he gave an interview where he was criticizing the team for not making him an offer, even though they knew he was waiting for one. So which is it? 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#6 russsnyder

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:57 AM

I got the same impression from the article. Like russ and jd, I think there were definitely some complimentary points that added balance to the article. But He was absolutely writing it from a negative perspective. He tried really hard to make Wieters comments sound like Brady's presence was a really big deal. I didn't think MW was saying anything more than articulating that players like the clubhouse to be their's. So why did Kenny try to drive home the fact that Brady has a locker? It's not as if he's hanging out with the players and taking notes. But that was the idea he was trying to press.

 

Wallace's opinion carries weight with me. But not Chiti. He said he left the O's because of Brady. That's not what happened at all. He wasn't offered an extension. In fact, he gave an interview where he was criticizing the team for not making him an offer, even though they knew he was waiting for one. So which is it? 

 

   I think that Rosenthal's point was that it is unusual for a front office executive to have a locker in the clubhouse.

 

   Also, IMO it is unusual for a front office employee to be such a players advocate. ( See the Mike Wright example.)

 

  I really did not get the impression that the players felt that Brady was in the clubhouse taking notes, however, it is a pretty unique 

 

  situation and I think that most can see where some players may not be entirely comfortable with it. I think Rosenthal painted a pretty 

 

  good picture of an unusual situation. The Orioles have a front office exec who helps the players with nutrition, conditioning, and 

 

  actually coaches the players at times. I don't think that the Orioles players view him as a potential "spy", but despite Anderson being

 

  an advocate for players, ( particularly the downtrodden) there seems to be some boundaries that Anderson has crossed ( unintentionally and intentionally

 

  at times) with both players and coaches. It's a good story and I think that Rosenthal was pretty fair. The Orioles have been successful with 

 

  Anderson in this role. 


Edited by russsnyder, 20 March 2017 - 10:09 AM.


#7 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:29 PM

   I think that Rosenthal's point was that it is unusual for a front office executive to have a locker in the clubhouse.

 

   Also, IMO it is unusual for a front office employee to be such a players advocate. ( See the Mike Wright example.)

 

  I really did not get the impression that the players felt that Brady was in the clubhouse taking notes, however, it is a pretty unique 

 

  situation and I think that most can see where some players may not be entirely comfortable with it. I think Rosenthal painted a pretty 

 

  good picture of an unusual situation. The Orioles have a front office exec who helps the players with nutrition, conditioning, and 

 

  actually coaches the players at times. I don't think that the Orioles players view him as a potential "spy", but despite Anderson being

 

  an advocate for players, ( particularly the downtrodden) there seems to be some boundaries that Anderson has crossed ( unintentionally and intentionally

 

  at times) with both players and coaches. It's a good story and I think that Rosenthal was pretty fair. The Orioles have been successful with 

 

  Anderson in this role. 

 

I agree.  The thing I find most troubling with this arrangement is the Mike Wright situation.  This opens a Pandora's box for players to go whining to Brady who think they aren't being coached right.  He may have a point, but there has to be a better way than undercutting your pitching coaches.  Like I said in another post, these are the same guys who fixed Britton.   So I guess we need to change pitching coaches every time a pitching buddy of Brady needs his diaper changed. 



#8 weird-O

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:57 PM

I agree.  The thing I find most troubling with this arrangement is the Mike Wright situation.  This opens a Pandora's box for players to go whining to Brady who think they aren't being coached right.  He may have a point, but there has to be a better way than undercutting your pitching coaches.  Like I said in another post, these are the same guys who fixed Britton.   So I guess we need to change pitching coaches every time a pitching buddy of Brady needs his diaper changed. 

You may have taken the football and run to the extreme end zone with it  :D

 

I think Brady's influence is more about conditioning and the balance of body mechanics (not pitching mechanics).  And that is a surprisingly big issue with pitchers. Palmer often mentions that pitchers of his day ran drills, and then ran more drills. Today's pitchers want to hit the gym, and they tend to ignore cardio and things that build stamina. I've heard about this being an issue throughout the sport. Muscle equals strength, strength equals power, power equals more money. Any suggestion that Brady was pulling rank on Wallace and Chiti can be countered with the fact that he didn't pull rank on Rick Adair, sadly. Adair is the guy who screwed up Britton and Arietta. If Brady didn't step in there, it's difficult to see why he would do so with Wallace/Chiti. Those guys are respected, Adair was despised by all (except Buck)

 

Wallace was going to retire anyway. He says he was inspired to leave, because of potential future problems with Brady, but that doesn't match up with his story last fall. And when he went back to the Braves, it was only as a coordinator. He isn't the Braves pitching coach. In many interviews, he said he hoped to stay in baseball, after retiring from being a pitching coach. He also said that his passion is for developing young pitchers. And that's what he's doing in Atl. He doesn't have to travel, and he doesn't have to fully retire.

 

All this stuff is swirling around, and it really seems at odds with KR's assertion that Brady is a source of friction.    


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#9 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:13 PM

You may have taken the football and run to the extreme end zone with it  :D

 

I think Brady's influence is more about conditioning and the balance of body mechanics (not pitching mechanics).  And that is a surprisingly big issue with pitchers. Palmer often mentions that pitchers of his day ran drills, and then ran more drills. Today's pitchers want to hit the gym, and they tend to ignore cardio and things that build stamina. I've heard about this being an issue throughout the sport. Muscle equals strength, strength equals power, power equals more money. Any suggestion that Brady was pulling rank on Wallace and Chiti can be countered with the fact that he didn't pull rank on Rick Adair, sadly. Adair is the guy who screwed up Britton and Arietta. If Brady didn't step in there, it's difficult to see why he would do so with Wallace/Chiti. Those guys are respected, Adair was despised by all (except Buck)

 

Wallace was going to retire anyway. He says he was inspired to leave, because of potential future problems with Brady, but that doesn't match up with his story last fall. And when he went back to the Braves, it was only as a coordinator. He isn't the Braves pitching coach. In many interviews, he said he hoped to stay in baseball, after retiring from being a pitching coach. He also said that his passion is for developing young pitchers. And that's what he's doing in Atl. He doesn't have to travel, and he doesn't have to fully retire.

 

All this stuff is swirling around, and it really seems at odds with KR's assertion that Brady is a source of friction.    

 

Yeah I just picked out the most troublesome part of the story.  I'm sure Brady is doing a fine job,  but I believe what Wallace and Chiti said about the Wright story.  There is just an odor about it that smells like Angelos and the way he runs the team.  And to find out Brady and Baby Louie are buddies, is just icing on the cake.  The two boys appear to be idiot chips off the old block.



#10 russsnyder

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:45 PM

Yeah I just picked out the most troublesome part of the story.  I'm sure Brady is doing a fine job,  but I believe what Wallace and Chiti said about the Wright story.  There is just an odor about it that smells like Angelos and the way he runs the team.  And to find out Brady and Baby Louie are buddies, is just icing on the cake.  The two boys appear to be idiot chips off the old block.

 

    To take this one step further, Duquette says in the article that Anderson does not answer to him. ( He was hired by angelos before Duquette 

    was hired.) I think that Anderson should report to someone in the organization other than ownership. According to the article, Anderson and his methods were a factor in driving Wallace and Chiti away from the organization I seem 

    to recall that the orioles were interested in promoting Chiti to pitching coach. while the Orioles have been successful, I think that Anderson

    should keep to conditioning and nutrition in the off season. If He does any tweaking with players during the conditioning sessions it should be 

    done with the knowledge of the coaching staff. ( i.e. Wallace made a good point in the article about having a united front with Wright.) He needs 

    to dress with the coaching staff in the locker room IMO. He does not belong in the players locker room. He is an front office exec/special 

    assistant coach. 



#11 russsnyder

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:46 PM

I agree.  The thing I find most troubling with this arrangement is the Mike Wright situation.  This opens a Pandora's box for players to go whining to Brady who think they aren't being coached right.  He may have a point, but there has to be a better way than undercutting your pitching coaches.  Like I said in another post, these are the same guys who fixed Britton.   So I guess we need to change pitching coaches every time a pitching buddy of Brady needs his diaper changed. 

 

   Bingo, you nailed the issue with this statement.



#12 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:55 PM

   Bingo, you nailed the issue with this statement.

 

And where do all roads lead for this dysfunction??   King Peter and his two half wit sons.



#13 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:57 PM

Brady is just operating within the parameters King Peter and the two Baby A"s have laid out for him.  Which are none!!!



#14 weird-O

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:26 AM

    To take this one step further, Duquette says in the article that Anderson does not answer to him. ( He was hired by angelos before Duquette 

    was hired.) I think that Anderson should report to someone in the organization other than ownership. According to the article, Anderson and his methods were a factor in driving Wallace and Chiti away from the organization I seem to recall that the orioles were interested in promoting Chiti to pitching coach. while the Orioles have been successful, I think that Anderson

    should keep to conditioning and nutrition in the off season. If He does any tweaking with players during the conditioning sessions it should be 

    done with the knowledge of the coaching staff. ( i.e. Wallace made a good point in the article about having a united front with Wright.) He needs 

    to dress with the coaching staff in the locker room IMO. He does not belong in the players locker room. He is an front office exec/special 

    assistant coach. 

Naw, you're not remembering correctly. Chiti wanted to stay with the O's, and sat in waiting for the O's to make him the offer. As the winter dragged on, and no offer came, he made the choice to accept an offer from the Braves.

 

That's why Chiti's comments, in this article, have no value for me. He repeatedly called DD to try and keep his job, but his calls went unanswered. Now he's saying he made the decision to leave, and it was because of Brady? Doesn't that sound suspicious to you?

 

Here's the article, in which Chiti and Britton are both quoted, on the record, and confirming that Chiti wanted to return, but wasn't offered a job extension.

 

http://www.baltimore...103-story.html 


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#15 russsnyder

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:28 AM

Naw, you're not remembering correctly. Chiti wanted to stay with the O's, and sat in waiting for the O's to make him the offer. As the winter dragged on, and no offer came, he made the choice to accept an offer from the Braves.

 

That's why Chiti's comments, in this article, have no value for me. He repeatedly called DD to try and keep his job, but his calls went unanswered. Now he's saying he made the decision to leave, and it was because of Brady? Doesn't that sound suspicious to you?

 

Here's the article, in which Chiti and Britton are both quoted, on the record, and confirming that Chiti wanted to return, but wasn't offered a job extension.

 

http://www.baltimore...103-story.html 

 

  Thanks for posting this article.

 

  I obviously had the story mixed up.

 

  His comments about Brady in the Rosenthal piece do ring more than a bit hollow.



#16 weird-O

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:39 AM

  Thanks for posting this article.

 

  I obviously had the story mixed up.

 

  His comments about Brady in the Rosenthal piece do ring more than a bit hollow.

That article stuck with me, because I remember criticizing DD for being so hardhearted, and just leaving Chiti to hang like that. I'm pretty sure I posted something about that on this board. I thought it was a bad idea, because Chiti is respected. So when I read KR's article, I immediately thought Chiti was just taking shots at the O's, because he was hurt that they didn't renew his contract.

 

Any good writer is going to dig into what his sources say. Especially a guy that's as accomplished and connected as KR. But this is what he does. He writes these pieces about the O's, because he's holding a grudge against Pete. Because Pete boxed him out, when he was a writer for the Sun.     


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#17 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:44 AM

Naw, you're not remembering correctly. Chiti wanted to stay with the O's, and sat in waiting for the O's to make him the offer. As the winter dragged on, and no offer came, he made the choice to accept an offer from the Braves.

 

That's why Chiti's comments, in this article, have no value for me. He repeatedly called DD to try and keep his job, but his calls went unanswered. Now he's saying he made the decision to leave, and it was because of Brady? Doesn't that sound suspicious to you?

 

Here's the article, in which Chiti and Britton are both quoted, on the record, and confirming that Chiti wanted to return, but wasn't offered a job extension.

 

http://www.baltimore...103-story.html 

 

Lets explore this in another way.  I'm sure what you are saying is probably true.  The O's didn't offer Chiti a contract to come back.  I remember a lot of grumbling on why the O's were dragging their feet on both Wallace and Chiti.  We know now Wallace wanted to step back.  But why did the O's kick Chiti to the curb??  Did he do a lousy job??   I mean he helped turn Britton into a Cy Young candidate.  And other pitchers have flourished under his guidance except for Wright.  So I have to wonder if Brady put the nix on Chiti coming back because.  They obviously didn't get along and Brady is number 2 in the organization.  Hmmm???  The Brady ploy thickens on his influence with the club.



#18 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:48 AM

That article stuck with me, because I remember criticizing DD for being so hardhearted, and just leaving Chiti to hang like that. I'm pretty sure I posted something about that on this board. I thought it was a bad idea, because Chiti is respected. So when I read KR's article, I immediately thought Chiti was just taking shots at the O's, because he was hurt that they didn't renew his contract.

 

Any good writer is going to dig into what his sources say. Especially a guy that's as accomplished and connected as KR. But this is what he does. He writes these pieces about the O's, because he's holding a grudge against Pete. Because Pete boxed him out, when he was a writer for the Sun.     

 

The more I read your comments the more I'm convinced Brady poisoned the water for Chiti.  Pete didn't return his calls!!!  Huh, that sounds like Brady was in Pete's ear.  This is a crap way of doing business.  Maybe it was better to move on from Chiti, but geez have the guts to tell him you are moving in a different direction.  More chicken crap from King Pete and his minions -  Brady and the two Baby sons.



#19 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:04 AM

This article has opened up a whole new perspective on the O's front office dysfunction.  Brady has his thumb in the soup and his lips to King Pete's ear.  My gawd, this is like a Dilbert comic strip.



#20 weird-O

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:55 AM

The more I read your comments the more I'm convinced Brady poisoned the water for Chiti.  Pete didn't return his calls!!!  Huh, that sounds like Brady was in Pete's ear.  This is a crap way of doing business.  Maybe it was better to move on from Chiti, but geez have the guts to tell him you are moving in a different direction.  More chicken crap from King Pete and his minions -  Brady and the two Baby sons.

 

 

This article has opened up a whole new perspective on the O's front office dysfunction.  Brady has his thumb in the soup and his lips to King Pete's ear.  My gawd, this is like a Dilbert comic strip.

It sounds like Kenny's article has had the full effect on you, that he was hoping for. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Pete isn't hiring the coaching staff. That's Buck's department. Brady may have clout, but not enough clout that he's vetoing Buck's coach selections. And it was DD who didn't return Chiti's phone calls, not Pete. Pete isn't hiring these guys. He use to, before he had a GM and coach that he trusted, but not anymore.

 

Furthermore, DD has a reputation for not returning calls. Chiti isn't the first, it's how DD conducts business. It's how he conducted business in Boston and presumably, Montreal. If he doesn't want to discuss something, he doesn't pick up the phone. Agents and players have commented on how they've gotten the same treatment. If you want to criticize DD for that, I'm with you. But to try and blow that up and hang it around the neck of Pete and his sons, that's a real stretch. 

 

Think about this. If Brady has so much influence, why did Pete hire Buck? The fans wanted Cal. Cal is a very close friend of Brady. So, if your theory is true, Brady would have whispered "hire Cal" to Lou and Pete.    

 

Lets explore this in another way.  I'm sure what you are saying is probably true.  The O's didn't offer Chiti a contract to come back.  I remember a lot of grumbling on why the O's were dragging their feet on both Wallace and Chiti.  We know now Wallace wanted to step back.  But why did the O's kick Chiti to the curb??  Did he do a lousy job??   I mean he helped turn Britton into a Cy Young candidate.  And other pitchers have flourished under his guidance except for Wright.  So I have to wonder if Brady put the nix on Chiti coming back because.  They obviously didn't get along and Brady is number 2 in the organization.  Hmmm???  The Brady ploy thickens on his influence with the club.

If I'm following you, you're entertaining the thought that, despite the positive influence he had on the pitching staff, Chiti was let go because one struggling pitcher felt like Wally/Chiti were bad for him. He went to Bradfy, Brady went to Pete, and Pete told DD and Buck to get rid of him. 

 

It's pretty far fetched to believe that a respected coach, who helped shape your staff, was let go, because of one player and his friend in the FO. The phrase, "cutting off your nose, to spite your face" comes to mind.

 

I'm getting the sense that you really want to believe everything KR wrote in this article. You seem to want to believe that the entire organization is poisoned and dysfunctional. Why?

 

Do all of your fantastical hypothesis really seem more plausible than the possibility that this one petty writer, with motive and years of examples of attacking the O's, is just continuing to hold onto a grudge?  

 

I don't instantly discount everything KR writes about the O's. But I scrutinize it more than Heyman, Morosi, et al.


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli




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