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Rosenthal has taken his annual dump on the O's

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I love when posters get so frustrated, that they start arguing semantics. Within this discussion, is there really a difference between "fired" and "not retained"? Either way, allow me to apologize for accidentally muddying the waters. Replace "fired" with "not retained". Does that really change anything?

 

I know what we're discussing. Let me recap for you. I think KR wrote an article that had facts that were then colored with speculation to paint the O's as a terribly run organization, with a terrible culture and a meddling owner who has created a dysfunctional organizational structure that further exacerbates the terrible culture.

 

To support this assertion, he had quotes from two former coaches who felt that Brady was interfering with their job. One of those coaches was retiring and decided not to take a p/t job with the O's, because he didn't want to deal with potential future differences in philosophy. The other said he left voluntarily, because of Brady. This contradicts an earlier article in which he said he wasn't offered an extension, and was really disappointed, because he wanted to stay with the O's. This is relevant, because it means that Brady wan't as difficult of a presence, as he now says he is. Otherwise, why would he want to stay with the O's, knowing that Brady will have the ability to override his authority? Those facts are contradictory to each other, and the idea that Brady has unchecked power that drove them out.

 

I suggested that Chiti wasn't retained, because they wanted to let the new PC hire his own guy. You disagree with that, and think that Brady used his influence to make sure Chiti didn't return. Either way, the O's aren't missing out, because RM is reported to be every bit as good a PC as Wallace, something that KR agree with, judging from his complimentary comments about RM. Whatever Chiti's positive influences were, it appears that the organizational brain trust, either collectively, or individual highest ranking members, saw Brady as more of an asset than Chiti.

 

Like any well run business, if there are two people who can't work together, you remove one of them. So I'll leave it by saying again, if Brady was so unbearable to work with, why did Chiti want to stay? If you can reconcile those two points, you might have a convincing argument.

Yeah I guess there was a little frustration in you changing my words to fit your argument better. So I called you out on it. Yes the end result of firing and not retained are the same. But the process is much different. Firing leaves blood on the hands of ownership/mgt that will need explained and money out of Pete's pocket. Not retained is easy. just don't pick up the phone. Real easy to justify we have to let this guy walk because him and Brady don't get along. And you are right they picked Brady over Chiti. That's a no brainer for Pete its his boy, but why in gods name would it come to that?? Because Brady had unchecked power and stuck his nose where it didn't belong with the pitching. I'm sure the two guys with 40 years of successful coaching experience told Brady to pound a protein shake where the sun doesn't shine.

But its easy to reconcile your last paragraph. Chiti wanted to stay because there are only 30 of these plum big league bullpen jobs in the whole world. And by all accounts, Buck is good to work for and lets his coaches do their thing. And he had a great bullpen coming back with all the key players that he helped make successful. He turned Britton and Brach into all stars from fringe mop up guys. He turned Givens into a really good middle guy with an even higher ceiling from a failed shortstop. He had one of the best bullpens in all of baseball every year he was here. All that gravy was worth putting up with Brady's periodic stupid meddling. I'd say that should reconcile things for you.

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I love when posters get so frustrated, that they start arguing semantics. Within this discussion, is there really a difference between "fired" and "not retained"? Either way, allow me to apologize for accidentally muddying the waters. Replace "fired" with "not retained". Does that really change anything?

 

I know what we're discussing. Let me recap for you. I think KR wrote an article that had facts that were then colored with speculation to paint the O's as a terribly run organization, with a terrible culture and a meddling owner who has created a dysfunctional organizational structure that further exacerbates the terrible culture.

 

To support this assertion, he had quotes from two former coaches who felt that Brady was interfering with their job. One of those coaches was retiring and decided not to take a p/t job with the O's, because he didn't want to deal with potential future differences in philosophy. The other said he left voluntarily, because of Brady. This contradicts an earlier article in which he said he wasn't offered an extension, and was really disappointed, because he wanted to stay with the O's. This is relevant, because it means that Brady wan't as difficult of a presence, as he now says he is. Otherwise, why would he want to stay with the O's, knowing that Brady will have the ability to override his authority? Those facts are contradictory to each other, and the idea that Brady has unchecked power that drove them out.

 

I suggested that Chiti wasn't retained, because they wanted to let the new PC hire his own guy. You disagree with that, and think that Brady used his influence to make sure Chiti didn't return. Either way, the O's aren't missing out, because RM is reported to be every bit as good a PC as Wallace, something that KR agree with, judging from his complimentary comments about RM. Whatever Chiti's positive influences were, it appears that the organizational brain trust, either collectively, or individual highest ranking members, saw Brady as more of an asset than Chiti.

 

Like any well run business, if there are two people who can't work together, you remove one of them. So I'll leave it by saying again, if Brady was so unbearable to work with, why did Chiti want to stay? If you can reconcile those two points, you might have a convincing argument.

Everything that I have seen shows the O's announcing McDowell as the PC and Mills as the BPC on the same day. That blows a whole in your theory about the new PC picking his own bullpen guy.

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But its easy to reconcile your last paragraph. Chiti wanted to stay because there are only 30 of these plum big league bullpen jobs in the whole world. And by all accounts, Buck is good to work for and lets his coaches do their thing. And he had a great bullpen coming back with all the key players that he helped make successful. He turned Britton and Brach into all stars from fringe mop up guys. He turned Givens into a really good middle guy with an even higher ceiling from a failed shortstop. He had one of the best bullpens in all of baseball every year he was here. All that gravy was worth putting up with Brady's periodic stupid meddling. I'd say that should reconcile things for you.

The argument that, "there are only X amount of those jobs" is a good one. But doesn't that usually only apply to marginal talents? An OK manager, coach, player, GM will tolerate a less than ideal situation, we know that. But the premium guys don't have that problem. Bumgarner, Kershaw, Trout, Harper, Machado types don't have to settle. Bochy, Maddon, Showalter types don't have to tolerate meddling. If Chiti is as great a BP coach as you believe he is, it stands to reason that, just like all the other names I mentioned, if they aren't happy, they will have their pick of openings. And there are always openings. When you're among the best in the sport, teams will make an opening for you. Just like they do for FA players. It happened for Maddon. The O's created an opening so that Mazzone could come over from Atlanta.    

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The argument that, "there are only X amount of those jobs" is a good one. But doesn't that usually only apply to marginal talents? An OK manager, coach, player, GM will tolerate a less than ideal situation, we know that. But the premium guys don't have that problem. Bumgarner, Kershaw, Trout, Harper, Machado types don't have to settle. Bochy, Maddon, Showalter types don't have to tolerate meddling. If Chiti is as great a BP coach as you believe he is, it stands to reason that, just like all the other names I mentioned, if they aren't happy, they will have their pick of openings. And there are always openings. When you're among the best in the sport, teams will make an opening for you. Just like they do for FA players. It happened for Maddon. The O's created an opening so that Mazzone could come over from Atlanta.    

 

I get what you are saying , but you are missing a big piece.  He was loyal to Buck and his guys in the bullpen.  He wasn't going to quit on them because Brady was a pain in his rear.  He called Buck his "brother" and the guys in the pen his "sons" .  He loved his job by all accounts other than Brady's meddling. He did a great job with the O's and yes he got a good job right away with the Braves.  Not a big league coaching job though.    I provided a link to a good story on the subject from Dan Connally and one from Birdwatcher.  Just more interesting fodder on how the FO operates. By all accounts Buck wanted Chiti back but the FO had other ideas. Guess Buck doesn't have as much stick as I thought.

http://birdswatcher.com/2016/11/05/baltimore-orioles-dom-chiti-leaves-for-braves-after-not-receiving-offer/

http://www.baltimorebaseball.com/2016/11/03/chiti-not-pursued-orioles-bothers-lot/

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Seriously, do you really think Chiti would still be with the team if him and Brady saw eye to eye on the pitching and were good friends???

 

Weird , would you care to answer???

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Seriously, do you really think Chiti would still be with the team if him and Brady saw eye to eye on the pitching and were good friends???

The quick answer is, yes. Because you have a guy that got results, and there's no friction. 

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I get what you are saying , but you are missing a big piece.  He was loyal to Buck and his guys in the bullpen.  He wasn't going to quit on them because Brady was a pain in his rear.  He called Buck his "brother" and the guys in the pen his "sons" .  He loved his job by all accounts other than Brady's meddling. He did a great job with the O's and yes he got a good job right away with the Braves.  Not a big league coaching job though.    I provided a link to a good story on the subject from Dan Connally and one from Birdwatcher.  Just more interesting fodder on how the FO operates. By all accounts Buck wanted Chiti back but the FO had other ideas. Guess Buck doesn't have as much stick as I thought.

http://birdswatcher.com/2016/11/05/baltimore-orioles-dom-chiti-leaves-for-braves-after-not-receiving-offer/

http://www.baltimorebaseball.com/2016/11/03/chiti-not-pursued-orioles-bothers-lot/

Here are some points that don't add up for me. 

 

Chiti said he and Buck "talked by phone in late October, but primarily because Showalter wanted to know what Chiti thought of a candidate for the vacant pitching coach position. Chiti said during that conversation Showalter asked him about his own interest in the job, and Chiti said he replied that he wasn’t going to campaign for any position, but that he’s always willing to do whatever is asked of him."

 

If he wanted the job, as badly as he's telling the reporters that he did, why not tell Buck, "I want the job, and I can do the job". Why be all coy about it. If I offered someone a job, and they said, "I guess, if that's what you want, I'll help you out", I'd be looking elsewhere. Chiti describes their relationship in terms of "brothers". Buck must be as hardhearted as DD. Yet Chiti only has issues with DD not addressing his future with the club? And since Buck was willing to talk to Chiti on the phone, why not call Buck and ask, "am I being brought back, DD won't return my calls" I don't know how you would feel, but if a close friend treated me, the way he says Buck treated him, I wouldn't be using glowing, flowery language, or continuing to consider him a "brother".

 

Here's something else

 

Chiti said, “I don’t go out looking for jobs. I’ll let my work, my body of work, speak for itself.” “I called and left three messages for Dan Duquette and he never called me back. I left three messages for the man. ‘This is Dominic, can I get a couple minutes of your time?”    

 

Within the same paragraph, he contradicted himself. Just like he contradicted himself in the KR article. This doesn't change my answer to your question above. But, as I said before, Chiti is talking out of both sides of his mouth, and I don't value his opinion on this subject, at all. Because he has repeated lied.

 

You're placing a lot of weight on the word of this man. Help me to understand why these things don't bother you.   

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Here are some points that don't add up for me. 

 

Chiti said he and Buck "talked by phone in late October, but primarily because Showalter wanted to know what Chiti thought of a candidate for the vacant pitching coach position. Chiti said during that conversation Showalter asked him about his own interest in the job, and Chiti said he replied that he wasn’t going to campaign for any position, but that he’s always willing to do whatever is asked of him."

 

If he wanted the job, as badly as he's telling the reporters that he did, why not tell Buck, "I want the job, and I can do the job". Why be all coy about it. If I offered someone a job, and they said, "I guess, if that's what you want, I'll help you out", I'd be looking elsewhere. Chiti describes their relationship in terms of "brothers". Buck must be as hardhearted as DD. Yet Chiti only has issues with DD not addressing his future with the club? And since Buck was willing to talk to Chiti on the phone, why not call Buck and ask, "am I being brought back, DD won't return my calls" I don't know how you would feel, but if a close friend treated me, the way he says Buck treated him, I wouldn't be using glowing, flowery language, or continuing to consider him a "brother".

 

Here's something else

 

Chiti said, “I don’t go out looking for jobs. I’ll let my work, my body of work, speak for itself.” “I called and left three messages for Dan Duquette and he never called me back. I left three messages for the man. ‘This is Dominic, can I get a couple minutes of your time?”    

 

Within the same paragraph, he contradicted himself. Just like he contradicted himself in the KR article. This doesn't change my answer to your question above. But, as I said before, Chiti is talking out of both sides of his mouth, and I don't value his opinion on this subject, at all. Because he has repeated lied.

 

You're placing a lot of weight on the word of this man. Help me to understand why these things don't bother you.   

 

Quite frankly it all bothers me.  Chiti's contradictions, Buck not going to bat for one of his guys, DD having no plausible answer for not renewing Chiti when asked, DD ignoring Chiti like yesterday's garbage, Brady's unfettered meddling which is causing friction with other coaches, and Pete having a royally screwed up front office structure.  What we got here is a 5 alarm mess. Oh well the silver lining is we have a good PC replacement and I think Mills will be fine.  Although the pressure will be on the bullpen and himself to live up to some pretty high standards.  This whole discussion on the KR article brought to light some interesting dynamics that will bear watching in the future.  Moving on.  We beat this horse enough.

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Quite frankly it all bothers me.  Chiti's contradictions, Buck not going to bat for one of his guys, DD having no plausible answer for not renewing Chiti when asked, DD ignoring Chiti like yesterday's garbage, Brady's unfettered meddling which is causing friction with other coaches, and Pete having a royally screwed up front office structure.  What we got here is a 5 alarm mess. Oh well the silver lining is we have a good PC replacement and I think Mills will be fine.  Although the pressure will be on the bullpen and himself to live up to some pretty high standards.  This whole discussion on the KR article brought to light some interesting dynamics that will bear watching in the future.  Moving on.  We beat this horse enough.

The thing is, Brady has been in this position since just before the organization turned around. That's why I don't see what the problem is. If the team was going great, then they hired Brady, and suddenly players were under performing, the team was losing more, and there was a revolving door of personnel changes, due to his presence, then I could understand the assertion of KR's article.

 

The truth is, we're seeing the opposite. Prior to Brady joining the team, Pete was all up in everybody's business. He was making all the final decisions. The only thing he didn't do, was put on a uniform, and sit in the dugout (like Turner did). It was a culture of losing. It can be argued that Brady has mitigated Pete's interference with the team.

 

Since we're closing down this conversation, I'll leave it with this thought. If Brady's position has created a royally screwed up FO structure, I'm all for it. Because the Brady influenced FO has instantly turned this team in to a perennial post season contender. And I don't buy O's gear, or go to the Yard, to watch the execs and coaches all getting along and singing Kum Ba Yah. 

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The thing is, Brady has been in this position since just before the organization turned around. That's why I don't see what the problem is. If the team was going great, then they hired Brady, and suddenly players were under performing, the team was losing more, and there was a revolving door of personnel changes, due to his presence, then I could understand the assertion of KR's article.

 

The truth is, we're seeing the opposite. Prior to Brady joining the team, Pete was all up in everybody's business. He was making all the final decisions. The only thing he didn't do, was put on a uniform, and sit in the dugout (like Turner did). It was a culture of losing. It can be argued that Brady has mitigated Pete's interference with the team.

 

Since we're closing down this conversation, I'll leave it with this thought. If Brady's position has created a royally screwed up FO structure, I'm all for it. Because the Brady influenced FO has instantly turned this team in to a perennial post season contender. And I don't buy O's gear, or go to the Yard, to watch the execs and coaches all getting along and singing Kum Ba Yah. 

 

I don't disagree with most of this.  Like I said from the get go, my only piece of Brady's role I had a problem with was his meddling with the pitching causing problems with other coaches that know way more than him.  I still contend that it is a poor front office structure as it cost us one of the best BP coaches in baseball.  And it put DD and Buck in a very bad spot in trying to clean up Brady's flaming bag of dog poop he left behind.  Yes Brady is helping on some fronts for sure, but he certainly screwed the pooch on this one.  From what I've read his prize pupils that he really worked with a lot were, Reimold, Matusz and Wrtight.  Not a great resume.  And as Buck was quoted , "Brady tries to save them all"".  LOL!!!!!

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The thing is, Brady has been in this position since just before the organization turned around. That's why I don't see what the problem is. If the team was going great, then they hired Brady, and suddenly players were under performing, the team was losing more, and there was a revolving door of personnel changes, due to his presence, then I could understand the assertion of KR's article.

 

The truth is, we're seeing the opposite. Prior to Brady joining the team, Pete was all up in everybody's business. He was making all the final decisions. The only thing he didn't do, was put on a uniform, and sit in the dugout (like Turner did). It was a culture of losing. It can be argued that Brady has mitigated Pete's interference with the team.

 

Since we're closing down this conversation, I'll leave it with this thought. If Brady's position has created a royally screwed up FO structure, I'm all for it. Because the Brady influenced FO has instantly turned this team in to a perennial post season contender. And I don't buy O's gear, or go to the Yard, to watch the execs and coaches all getting along and singing Kum Ba Yah. 

 

Oh and there is a lot of room for improvement from the front office.  We only made it to one ALCS the last 6 years and were swept.  SO don't blow their horn too much.

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Oh and there is a lot of room for improvement from the front office.  We only made it to one ALCS the last 6 years and were swept.  SO don't blow their horn too much.

Is that better or worse than 14 straight years of losing? 

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Is that better or worse than 14 straight years of losing? 

 

Way better of course, but It could be even better.  Pete has had a screwed up management structure for years.  Remember co-GMs??   DD and Buck are getting it done in spite of Pete and Brady, and  the way the front office is structured. Pete and Brady just need to stay out of the way and not make waves.  If Brady is doing a good job holding Pete's hand and telling him all is good, well that's just great.  I'll give Brady a gold star then. Just stay out of the locker room and away from the pitchers please.

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The thing is, Brady has been in this position since just before the organization turned around. That's why I don't see what the problem is. If the team was going great, then they hired Brady, and suddenly players were under performing, the team was losing more, and there was a revolving door of personnel changes, due to his presence, then I could understand the assertion of KR's article.

 

The truth is, we're seeing the opposite. Prior to Brady joining the team, Pete was all up in everybody's business. He was making all the final decisions. The only thing he didn't do, was put on a uniform, and sit in the dugout (like Turner did). It was a culture of losing. It can be argued that Brady has mitigated Pete's interference with the team.

 

Since we're closing down this conversation, I'll leave it with this thought. If Brady's position has created a royally screwed up FO structure, I'm all for it. Because the Brady influenced FO has instantly turned this team in to a perennial post season contender. And I don't buy O's gear, or go to the Yard, to watch the execs and coaches all getting along and singing Kum Ba Yah. 

 

Here is another interesting link to a story from a Balt beat writer dissecting the KR story.  Interesting that Brady has only been in his current role of EVP reporting directly to Peter since Feb 2013.  That was after DD and Buck got here.

http://www.camdenchat.com/2017/3/20/14983776/brady-anderson-orioles-front-office

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Here is another interesting link to a story from a Balt beat writer dissecting the KR story.  Interesting that Brady has only been in his current role of EVP reporting directly to Peter since Feb 2013.  That was after DD and Buck got here.

http://www.camdenchat.com/2017/3/20/14983776/brady-anderson-orioles-front-office

This is a misrepresentation of the truth, even the article attests to that. Brady's title has changed, apparently it's changed multiple times. But the majority of his duties (for lack of better term) have been based in conditioning and nutrition. I suspect his role has expanded. But again, the on the field results have been positive, so I'm not complaining. 

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This is a misrepresentation of the truth, even the article attests to that. Brady's title has changed, apparently it's changed multiple times. But the majority of his duties (for lack of better term) have been based in conditioning and nutrition. I suspect his role has expanded. But again, the on the field results have been positive, so I'm not complaining. 

 

Uh not sure we will ever know the true story on this one.  That great front office sturucture makes it impossible to ascertain who is doing what to who.  But again good results but its 98% Buck and and DD.  I'll give Brady 2%. because of his blender skills, :lol: 

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Way better of course, but It could be even better.  Pete has had a screwed up management structure for years.  Remember co-GMs??   DD and Buck are getting it done in spite of Pete and Brady, and  the way the front office is structured. Pete and Brady just need to stay out of the way and not make waves.  If Brady is doing a good job holding Pete's hand and telling him all is good, well that's just great.  I'll give Brady a gold star then. Just stay out of the locker room and away from the pitchers please.

Hmmm...you can't say that now, after spending most of this thread trying to convince me that Brady is the Black Hand, and with/through Pete, is the ultimate authority. You can't say they are the deciders, when you want to paint them as meddling and having a bad influence, and then say that Buck and DD are having results despite them. It can't be both. Either Pete and Brady have figured out how to build a contender, or Brady isn't making the decisions, and Pete has largely backed out of the way. So which is it, in your opinion?  

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Uh not sure we will ever know the true story on this one.  That great front office sturucture makes it impossible to ascertain who is doing what to who.  But again good results but its 98% Buck and and DD.  I'll give Brady 2%. because of his blender skills, :lol:

This is my opinion too. I'm giving DD and Buck the lion's share of the credit. I'm not sure how much credit Brady, Wallace & Chiti deserve. Frankly, I don't care. Fans of our caliber will always talk about the political and business side of the sport, especially related to the O's. But in the end, I'm sure I speak for all of us on this board, when I say, it's what happens between the lines that we are most interested in.  

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Hmmm...you can't say that now, after spending most of this thread trying to convince me that Brady is the Black Hand, and with/through Pete, is the ultimate authority. You can't say they are the deciders, when you want to paint them as meddling and having a bad influence, and then say that Buck and DD are having results despite them. It can't be both. Either Pete and Brady have figured out how to build a contender, or Brady isn't making the decisions, and Pete has largely backed out of the way. So which is it, in your opinion?  

 

I'm talking on field positive performance.  I contended he had a negative influence on the Dom Chiti deal.  Which he did.  You admitted that   Brady is the reason Chiti is not here.  

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I'm talking on field positive performance.  I contended he had a negative influence on the Dom Chiti deal.  Which he did.  You admitted that   Brady is the reason Chiti is not here.  

 

 

I'm talking on field positive performance.  I contended he had a negative influence on the Dom Chiti deal.  Which he did.  You admitted that   Brady is the reason Chiti is not here.  

 

And that a big negative since the bullpen led by Chiti was the best part of this team the last 3 years!  Hands down it carried this team.

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I'm talking on field positive performance.  I contended he had a negative influence on the Dom Chiti deal.  Which he did.  You admitted that   Brady is the reason Chiti is not here.  

OK, so if the results on the field are positive, and it's because of Buck and DD, then what are you complaining about? Are you really that upset that a BP coach was let go? Do you really think his influence was so monumental, that the pitching will implode, now that he's gone? 

 

This is an example of the kind of thoughts I've had in my head, throughout this conversation. Since the start of this thread, you've declared Brady a menace to O's society, public enemy #1. And you seem to consider Don Chiti an unparalleled BP God. 

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OK, so if the results on the field are positive, and it's because of Buck and DD, then what are you complaining about? Are you really that upset that a BP coach was let go? Do you really think his influence was so monumental, that the pitching will implode, now that he's gone? 

 

This is an example of the kind of thoughts I've had in my head, throughout this conversation. Since the start of this thread, you've declared Brady a menace to O's society, public enemy #1. And you seem to consider Don Chiti an unparalleled BP God. 

 

Oh geez here we go.  As the argument slips away, you resort to wild exaggerations of what I've said.  Its pretty simple if you would get your KR bias hat off.  I only focused on Brady's role in the departure of Chiti. No I didn't like the way it came down as the O's treated a decent man who gave his heart and soul to the team as well as doing a fantastic job like yesterdays trash.  And Brady was the root cause because he stuck his nose into the pitching.  It just sets a very bad precedent for the future. 

And I do worry about the effect on the bullpen, but I fully expect it to be alright.  Mills is capable by all accounts. 

That's all I got.  I'm off to Florida for a long weekend so I hope someone picks up the torch so you can continue the argument.  Its only been you and me.  I guess no one else cares which is probably smart as this is all past history now.  Just hope history doesn't repeat itself and Brady sticks to holding Petes hand and blending protein shakes. :)  

Its been real. :) 

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Oh geez here we go.  As the argument slips away, you resort to wild exaggerations of what I've said.  Its pretty simple if you would get your KR bias hat off.  I only focused on Brady's role in the departure of Chiti. No I didn't like the way it came down as the O's treated a decent man who gave his heart and soul to the team as well as doing a fantastic job like yesterdays trash.  And Brady was the root cause because he stuck his nose into the pitching.  It just sets a very bad precedent for the future. 

And I do worry about the effect on the bullpen, but I fully expect it to be alright.  Mills is capable by all accounts. 

That's all I got.  I'm off to Florida for a long weekend so I hope someone picks up the torch so you can continue the argument.  Its only been you and me.  I guess no one else cares which is probably smart as this is all past history now.  Just hope history doesn't repeat itself and Brady sticks to holding Petes hand and blending protein shakes. :)  

Its been real. :)

Have an awesome weekend  ;)

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