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bleedingorangeandblack

Dumpster Dan

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Nice rundown. The bottom line is that Duquette has put a winning team on the field. And i remember there were few people that were upset that Arrietta was traded. He always had potential, but with the Orioles had major control issues. It's easy to be critical after the fact. But if anyone is honest, they were OK with the trade at the time.

Yea, Dan wasn't the reason that Arrietta didn't blossom here. Dan doesn't coach the pitchers the last I saw. It was the heavy handed pitching coaches that cause Arrietta to fail.

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Yea, Dan wasn't the reason that Arrietta didn't blossom here. Dan doesn't coach the pitchers the last I saw. It was the heavy handed pitching coaches that cause Arrietta to fail.

It was that and sometimes a change in scenery makes the world of difference. But we cannot cry over every player that gets traded or moves on, even if/when those players prosper elsewhere. Ideally, trades are supposed to benefit both clubs, but sometimes you get a player like Adam Jones/Chris Tillman that will help you for years and sometimes you give up players like Arrieta that will help other teams.

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Nice rundown. The bottom line is that Duquette has put a winning team on the field. And i remember there were few people that were upset that Arrietta was traded. He always had potential, but with the Orioles had major control issues. It's easy to be critical after the fact. But if anyone is honest, they were OK with the trade at the time.

I certainly was. I know I've said it before, but trades first have to be judged by their merit at the time they're made. The second criterion is the result, which wasn't so hot, but at the time, it looked like a case of the Orioles getting a guy who could help (Scott Feldman) in exchange for someone who certainly had the ability to do so, but had largely been unable to contribute up that point.

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Yea, Dan wasn't the reason that Arrietta didn't blossom here. Dan doesn't coach the pitchers the last I saw. It was the heavy handed pitching coaches that cause Arrietta to fail.

I would argue, in that case, that Dan and Buck shoulder the blame with Jake.

 

Dan had the ridiculous notion that there is something wrong with the cutter. Buck supported him, as did the pitching coaches. Jake acted like a baby about it.

 

Whereas Jake has blossomed, Wright has taken the same attitude and it has pushed him into the gutter.

 

As far as the trade itself, based on Arrieta's performance it had to be done.

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I certainly was. I know I've said it before, but trades first have to be judged by their merit at the time they're made. The second criterion is the result, which wasn't so hot, but at the time, it looked like a case of the Orioles getting a guy who could help (Scott Feldman) in exchange for someone who certainly had the ability to do so, but had largely been unable to contribute up that point.

 

Imo, the reality of what Dan has done, and what will be his ultimate negative on his resume, was his inability to act to make the team better when he needed to.

For all of the good moves he has made, he has also made a number of non-moves that have really hurt his stock.

Instead of signing starting pitching when it was needed, he ignored good starters and went for bargain bin moves.

Instead of signing players to fit the needs of the team, he has been overaggressive trying to nickle and dime his way to fill those needs, and it has probably cost the team at least one WS, because the core of this team is one of the best in baseball by far.

He also let important players go.

Lastly, he hasn't engaged at all in the international prospect market.

My feeling though is that this has something more to do with Angelos than him. Also, the team posted an operating loss last year, one of only 6 teams in baseball. I'm sure this is going to cause them to have to tighten the purse strings a little more. I just hope it doesn't get in the way of any resignings.

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DD continues to raid the back end of other teams 40 man rosters by trading another international bonus slot to the Marlins for LHP Paul Fry.  Designated Parker Bridwell of the 40 man.  Not sure these new guys like Magnifico or Fry will ever pan out, but it was pretty clear guys like Gunkle, GDrake and Bridwell didn't have it.  I expect Mike Wright to be gone one of these days too. He has fallen like a rock.  Best thing for him would be to switch to the pen as a set up guy. Throw gas for one inning ala tommy hunter.

 

LOL, DD spends those international bonus slots and comp draft picks like a drunken sailor.  I'm OK with it as long as you clear the deadwood from the 40 man like he has been.  I did see where there was an article being highly critical of the O's for their lack of international signings to help the farm. 

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Imo, the reality of what Dan has done, and what will be his ultimate negative on his resume, was his inability to act to make the team better when he needed to.

For all of the good moves he has made, he has also made a number of non-moves that have really hurt his stock.

Instead of signing starting pitching when it was needed, he ignored good starters and went for bargain bin moves.

Instead of signing players to fit the needs of the team, he has been overaggressive trying to nickle and dime his way to fill those needs, and it has probably cost the team at least one WS, because the core of this team is one of the best in baseball by far.

He also let important players go.

Lastly, he hasn't engaged at all in the international prospect market.

My feeling though is that this has something more to do with Angelos than him. Also, the team posted an operating loss last year, one of only 6 teams in baseball. I'm sure this is going to cause them to have to tighten the purse strings a little more. I just hope it doesn't get in the way of any resignings.

 

   I am not sure exactly what You are referring to here, however, I think that DD has done a good job at addressing the needs of the team in season.

 

   IMO, I think that his acquisitions of Bourn, Stubbs, and Tommy Hunter last season are a good example of this. Bourn and Stubbs gave the Orioles an influx

 

   of speed and improved OF defense. ( Bourn's misplay in the WC game aside.) Hunter gave Showalter another option other than the Wilson/Wright dumpster fire.

 

   Also, while it is easy to criticize the Arrietta trade in hindsight, Feldman provided a steady rotation piece in 2013. I had no issue with moving Arrietta at the time.

 

   His best in season move IMO was the acquisition of Andrew Miller in 2014. The Tigers were in the hunt for Miller and the deal solidified the Orioles pen and 

 

   lept the orioles from having to face Miller in the divisional round. 

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Posted (edited)

I think fantasy and computer simulation games have ruined fans expectations of what their respective teams do in transactions. It's real easy to build a great fantasy team, but real life is much different and harder. For example, I keep hearing that the Orioles needed to get a high qulity pitcher and are upset that they "settle" for pitchers that other teams discard. And there is a reason for that.

 

Great pitchers don't grow on trees and the ones that are great tend to be in high demand. And past performances do not usually mean future success. It's a great risk to buy and expensive pitcher through free agency. What happens if you sign a former Cy-Young pitcher for a 7-year 30 million per year contract and he blows his arm out in the second year or just doesn't perform as well as in the past? And even if he does pitch adequately for the remainder of the contract? How does that affect other roster decisions?

 

Real life is much more complicated than the fantasy world. The "perfect" players usually aren't available and when they are there is usually a stiff price to acquire them.

Edited by ncbirdfan

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Arietta - [bno problem with the trade. He needed to get out because the O's ruined him.[/b]

Hader - Jury is still out

Davies - Is he better than 2/5ths of the rotation?

Rodriguez - So far looks like a great arm who may not figure out how to pitch.

 

Cruz - Had his best year, and was promptly let go and not replaced adequately until Trumbo.

Gallardo - Horrendous with or with Seth Smith

UJ - horrible move

Trumbo - great pickup for nothing, led the majors in homers, signed on a discount. Agree

Kim - .380 OBP last year, being paid virtually nothing

Brach - great pickup, AS

Britton to BP - great move, one of the best closers of this generation. What makes you think Duquette did that?

Miller - phenomenal pickup, just wasn't ahead of the curve on signing him

Bundy - going to be a great draft pick Too bad DD didn't pick him.

Castillo - early on, but looking like a good bargain sign

Flaherty - solid utility man, nothing to write home about

Machado to 3b - great move again, what makes you think DD did that? That is at best a group organizational decision and you can get DD defers to the minor league coaches and Buck on that.

Gausman draft pick - great returns so far

Hart - good lefty based on how large a sample?

Alvarez - solid pickup for DH even in a platoon, over 20 homers So good he's still unsigned because he can't give away his services

Jim Johnson - let go at the right time

Mancini - one of his draft picks, looks like he's going to be pretty good

Chen - great signing, let him go at the right time

Gonzalez - great pickup, may have been let go too soon

Norris - great pickup, pitched over his head in what universe was Norris a great pickup?

Rickard - jury is still out

McFarland - very good for the O's, then fell on his face and is gone Awful.

Hammel - great pickup, couldn't stay healthy

Lindstrom - great pickup

Ayala - great pickup

 

I've said before and I'll say again. Duquette can't build a starting pitching staff. If he could only be gm of finding position players he'd be great. He aint.

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Arietta - [bno problem with the trade. He needed to get out because the O's ruined him.[/b]

Hader - Jury is still out

Davies - Is he better than 2/5ths of the rotation?

Rodriguez - So far looks like a great arm who may not figure out how to pitch.

 

Cruz - Had his best year, and was promptly let go and not replaced adequately until Trumbo.

Gallardo - Horrendous with or with Seth Smith

UJ - horrible move

Trumbo - great pickup for nothing, led the majors in homers, signed on a discount. Agree

Kim - .380 OBP last year, being paid virtually nothing

Brach - great pickup, AS

Britton to BP - great move, one of the best closers of this generation. What makes you think Duquette did that?

Miller - phenomenal pickup, just wasn't ahead of the curve on signing him

Bundy - going to be a great draft pick Too bad DD didn't pick him.

Castillo - early on, but looking like a good bargain sign

Flaherty - solid utility man, nothing to write home about

Machado to 3b - great move again, what makes you think DD did that? That is at best a group organizational decision and you can get DD defers to the minor league coaches and Buck on that.

Gausman draft pick - great returns so far

Hart - good lefty based on how large a sample?

Alvarez - solid pickup for DH even in a platoon, over 20 homers So good he's still unsigned because he can't give away his services

Jim Johnson - let go at the right time

Mancini - one of his draft picks, looks like he's going to be pretty good

Chen - great signing, let him go at the right time

Gonzalez - great pickup, may have been let go too soon

Norris - great pickup, pitched over his head in what universe was Norris a great pickup?

Rickard - jury is still out

McFarland - very good for the O's, then fell on his face and is gone Awful.

Hammel - great pickup, couldn't stay healthy

Lindstrom - great pickup

Ayala - great pickup

 

I've said before and I'll say again. Duquette can't build a starting pitching staff. If he could only be gm of finding position players he'd be great. He aint.

How's your fantasy team doing?

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   I am not sure exactly what You are referring to here, however, I think that DD has done a good job at addressing the needs of the team in season.

 

   IMO, I think that his acquisitions of Bourn, Stubbs, and Tommy Hunter last season are a good example of this. Bourn and Stubbs gave the Orioles an influx

 

   of speed and improved OF defense. ( Bourn's misplay in the WC game aside.) Hunter gave Showalter another option other than the Wilson/Wright dumpster fire.

 

   Also, while it is easy to criticize the Arrietta trade in hindsight, Feldman provided a steady rotation piece in 2013. I had no issue with moving Arrietta at the time.

 

   His best in season move IMO was the acquisition of Andrew Miller in 2014. The Tigers were in the hunt for Miller and the deal solidified the Orioles pen and 

 

   lept the orioles from having to face Miller in the divisional round. 

Feldman was one of those non-moves. The O's really needed another pitcher they could count on, and the O's let him go.

I'm not criticizing the Arrieta trade - I think the trade made sense at the time, but I also think that the O's immovable position made the situation happen in the first place.

Miller was a great pickup - then they let him go in the offseason. It was just before the great shift to paying relievers, but he was too expensive for the O's.

 

DD makes a ton of good fringe acquisitions, and they pan out great. I just think that, again, his non-moves are what is going to define his time with the O's. I just hope that doesn't include a Manny defection.

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Arietta - [bno problem with the trade. He needed to get out because the O's ruined him.[/b]

Hader - Jury is still out

Davies - Is he better than 2/5ths of the rotation?

Rodriguez - So far looks like a great arm who may not figure out how to pitch.

 

Cruz - Had his best year, and was promptly let go and not replaced adequately until Trumbo.

Gallardo - Horrendous with or with Seth Smith

UJ - horrible move

Trumbo - great pickup for nothing, led the majors in homers, signed on a discount. Agree

Kim - .380 OBP last year, being paid virtually nothing

Brach - great pickup, AS

Britton to BP - great move, one of the best closers of this generation. What makes you think Duquette did that?

Miller - phenomenal pickup, just wasn't ahead of the curve on signing him

Bundy - going to be a great draft pick Too bad DD didn't pick him.

Castillo - early on, but looking like a good bargain sign

Flaherty - solid utility man, nothing to write home about

Machado to 3b - great move again, what makes you think DD did that? That is at best a group organizational decision and you can get DD defers to the minor league coaches and Buck on that.

Gausman draft pick - great returns so far

Hart - good lefty based on how large a sample?

Alvarez - solid pickup for DH even in a platoon, over 20 homers So good he's still unsigned because he can't give away his services

Jim Johnson - let go at the right time

Mancini - one of his draft picks, looks like he's going to be pretty good

Chen - great signing, let him go at the right time

Gonzalez - great pickup, may have been let go too soon

Norris - great pickup, pitched over his head in what universe was Norris a great pickup?

Rickard - jury is still out

McFarland - very good for the O's, then fell on his face and is gone Awful.

Hammel - great pickup, couldn't stay healthy

Lindstrom - great pickup

Ayala - great pickup

 

I've said before and I'll say again. Duquette can't build a starting pitching staff. If he could only be gm of finding position players he'd be great. He aint.

 

If you're going to quote me, have the respect to actually quote me instead of changing my words. Thanks.

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How's your fantasy team doing?

It's going great. I used "Baseball Perspective" to help me.

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Posted (edited)

 

 

If you're going to quote me, have the respect to actually quote me instead of changing my words. Thanks.

I didn't change any words. I bolded my thoughts if they differed from yours.

 

Get over yourself. Thanks.

Edited by Slidemaster

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It's going great. I used "Baseball Perspective" to help me.

Cool! That's the site I would have used as well. :)

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Posted (edited)

 

Feldman was one of those non-moves. The O's really needed another pitcher they could count on, and the O's let him go.

I'm not criticizing the Arrieta trade - I think the trade made sense at the time, but I also think that the O's immovable position made the situation happen in the first place.

Miller was a great pickup - then they let him go in the offseason. It was just before the great shift to paying relievers, but he was too expensive for the O's.

 

DD makes a ton of good fringe acquisitions, and they pan out great. I just think that, again, his non-moves are what is going to define his time with the O's. I just hope that doesn't include a Manny defection.

 

    Not signing Feldman at the time was not a "non move." ( IMHO)

 

    The orioles decided to sign Ubaldo instead ( 4 years 50 million) and Feldman signed with the Astros (3 years for 30 million).

 

    At the time they made the decision to sign Ubaldo one of the team's strengths was starting pitching. 

 

    They had Tillman, Bud Norris ( another mid season acquisition that improved the team) , Gonzalez, and Gausman.

 

     You can argue that signing Ubaldo over feldman was a bad move, but the Orioles had four starters that would be under team control 

 

      for a few years. ( Not counting an injured Dylan Bundy. ) The orioles needed another starter, unfortunately, they signed the wrong one to a long 

 

      term contract. The Orioles certainly contributed to the Arrietta situation. However, they did give the guy opportunities and He needed the change of scenery.

 

      I agree that Miller was too expensive at the time, especially considering that they had an excellent closer in Britton who was relatively cheap.

 

      I think DD makes more than good fringe acquisitions, and I think some of his non moves work out pretty well. ( See Trumbo and Alvarez)

Edited by russsnyder

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I won't pretend to have thought Feldman particularly special, but I did think Ubaldo was a terrible move from day one. You look at a guy's track record back a few years, and his was mostly bad/awful. He had one GREAT half season out of the prior 3 FULL seasons... the rest of the time he was less than mediocre at best.

 

It was virtually identical to the Millwood move years before... where 80% of the prior three seasons, he'd been average at best, and usually bad. I just can't get onboard with thinking an aging pitcher who hasn't been very good the prior three years is going to suddenly find consistency and success. For a veteran minimum / spring invite, fine... but not for significant dollars. You usually wind up throwing away a lot of games trying to "get value" hoping for a resurgence... Instead of moving on to see what someone else younger can accomplish. They arguably threw away an entire playoff run last year because Buck wanted to give the nice guy another shot to prove his worth. Disaster.

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Posted (edited)

I won't pretend to have thought Feldman particularly special, but I did think Ubaldo was a terrible move from day one. You look at a guy's track record back a few years, and his was mostly bad/awful. He had one GREAT half season out of the prior 3 FULL seasons... the rest of the time he was less than mediocre at best.

 

It was virtually identical to the Millwood move years before... where 80% of the prior three seasons, he'd been average at best, and usually bad. I just can't get onboard with thinking an aging pitcher who hasn't been very good the prior three years is going to suddenly find consistency and success. For a veteran minimum / spring invite, fine... but not for significant dollars. You usually wind up throwing away a lot of games trying to "get value" hoping for a resurgence... Instead of moving on to see what someone else younger can accomplish. They arguably threw away an entire playoff run last year because Buck wanted to give the nice guy another shot to prove his worth. Disaster.

 

   Feldman was not anything mopre than a third or fourth starter, however, the Orioles were enamored with Ubaldo and overpaid him.

 

   I am sure that they looked at him being a number two starter in the rotation and it obviously has not worked out.

 

   The difference between Millwood and Ubaldo  is night and day. Millwood was a 35 year old pitcher who the Orioles acquired via trade.

 

    It may be difficult to remember, but while Ubaldo was overpaid, He was going to land a significant contract. At the time He threw 95 plus, was 30 years old and 

 

    as You stated He was coming off a brilliant second half of his walk season. The orioles thought they were getting a guy who was putting together a nice run into

 

    the prime of his career. They were obviously wrong, but Ubaldo was not the Doug Fister or Colby Lewis of that free agent class.

 

    I agree that it is past time to cut bait with Ubaldo, but I am not on the hook for paying him 13 million a year. It was a bad move to put him on the playoff roster over 

 

    Worley for the Wild Card game much less using him out of the pen in a tied game. IMO, that's a case of a manager outsmarting himself  rather than taking care of a nice guy.

Edited by russsnyder

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Big Dan has three big issues (which he lies to fans about every off-season, and doesn't do crap): (1) starting pitching, (2) leadoff hitter, (3) on/base guys.

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I didn't change any words. I bolded my thoughts if they differed from yours.

 

Get over yourself. Thanks.

It's not about me, it's about your inability to hit the quote button and follow basic forum etiquette, thanks.

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Posted (edited)

It's not about me, it's about your inability to hit the quote button and follow basic forum etiquette, thanks.

Oh I see. I didn't put every individual player in the special little box before giving you my comments. How heinous.

 

Did you know it was your post? Did everyone else? Did I claim it was anything else? No? Oh good. Non-issue. If you don't want to acknowledge what I said that's fine, but don't give me some nonsense about how you won't respond because my forum etiquette isn't proper. Thanks.

Edited by Slidemaster

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Feldman was one of those non-moves. The O's really needed another pitcher they could count on, and the O's let him go.

I don't think Feldman ever wanted to be in Baltimore, and I don't think he enjoyed his brief time here.

 

Here's why I think this may be true. In the winter, before the 2013 season, the O's tried to sign him. He chose to take less money to pitch for the Cubs. The Cubs were rebuilding then, and were slated to be a cellar dweller, and they were. They traded him to Baltimore that year. The next winter, the O's let him know they would be open to his returning. Instead, he went to Houston. Once again, he preferred to pitch for an "also ran" team, then to be in Baltimore. 

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I don't think Feldman ever wanted to be in Baltimore, and I don't think he enjoyed his brief time here.

 

Here's why I think this may be true. In the winter, before the 2013 season, the O's tried to sign him. He chose to take less money to pitch for the Cubs. The Cubs were rebuilding then, and were slated to be a cellar dweller, and they were. They traded him to Baltimore that year. The next winter, the O's let him know they would be open to his returning. Instead, he went to Houston. Once again, he preferred to pitch for an "also ran" team, then to be in Baltimore. 

 

It helped that Houston gave a journeyman 30mil.  They were high bidder by far.

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It helped that Houston gave a journeyman 30mil.  They were high bidder by far.

$10m/yr for a #3-4 was pretty much the going rate. It was actually a pretty good deal for Houston. If he had any interest in coming back to the O's, I'm sure they would have given him that kind of money. But probably would have been hesitant to go for a 3rd year. That's something that I think gets lost in the Ubaldo conversation. $12m/yr for a #3 (which is what he was, coming into that deal) was the going rate. The problem I had with that deal, was that DD seemed to think he was getting a #1 starter for $12M. All he really did was add a #3 starter to a rotation that was comprised of all #3,4,5 guys. 

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$10m/yr for a #3-4 was pretty much the going rate. It was actually a pretty good deal for Houston. If he had any interest in coming back to the O's, I'm sure they would have given him that kind of money. But probably would have been hesitant to go for a 3rd year. That's something that I think gets lost in the Ubaldo conversation. $12m/yr for a #3 (which is what he was, coming into that deal) was the going rate. The problem I had with that deal, was that DD seemed to think he was getting a #1 starter for $12M. All he really did was add a #3 starter to a rotation that was comprised of all #3,4,5 guys. 

 

I remember it as an overpay at the time.  It was the third year nobody else wanted to do.  But Houston did get a decent return.

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