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#41 russsnyder

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 03:42 PM

 
Feldman was one of those non-moves. The O's really needed another pitcher they could count on, and the O's let him go.
I'm not criticizing the Arrieta trade - I think the trade made sense at the time, but I also think that the O's immovable position made the situation happen in the first place.
Miller was a great pickup - then they let him go in the offseason. It was just before the great shift to paying relievers, but he was too expensive for the O's.

DD makes a ton of good fringe acquisitions, and they pan out great. I just think that, again, his non-moves are what is going to define his time with the O's. I just hope that doesn't include a Manny defection.

 

    Not signing Feldman at the time was not a "non move." ( IMHO)

 

    The orioles decided to sign Ubaldo instead ( 4 years 50 million) and Feldman signed with the Astros (3 years for 30 million).

 

    At the time they made the decision to sign Ubaldo one of the team's strengths was starting pitching. 

 

    They had Tillman, Bud Norris ( another mid season acquisition that improved the team) , Gonzalez, and Gausman.

 

     You can argue that signing Ubaldo over feldman was a bad move, but the Orioles had four starters that would be under team control 

 

      for a few years. ( Not counting an injured Dylan Bundy. ) The orioles needed another starter, unfortunately, they signed the wrong one to a long 

 

      term contract. The Orioles certainly contributed to the Arrietta situation. However, they did give the guy opportunities and He needed the change of scenery.

 

      I agree that Miller was too expensive at the time, especially considering that they had an excellent closer in Britton who was relatively cheap.

 

      I think DD makes more than good fringe acquisitions, and I think some of his non moves work out pretty well. ( See Trumbo and Alvarez)


Edited by russsnyder, 15 April 2017 - 03:49 PM.


#42 Ravens2006

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 05:30 PM

I won't pretend to have thought Feldman particularly special, but I did think Ubaldo was a terrible move from day one. You look at a guy's track record back a few years, and his was mostly bad/awful. He had one GREAT half season out of the prior 3 FULL seasons... the rest of the time he was less than mediocre at best.

It was virtually identical to the Millwood move years before... where 80% of the prior three seasons, he'd been average at best, and usually bad. I just can't get onboard with thinking an aging pitcher who hasn't been very good the prior three years is going to suddenly find consistency and success. For a veteran minimum / spring invite, fine... but not for significant dollars. You usually wind up throwing away a lot of games trying to "get value" hoping for a resurgence... Instead of moving on to see what someone else younger can accomplish. They arguably threw away an entire playoff run last year because Buck wanted to give the nice guy another shot to prove his worth. Disaster.
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#43 russsnyder

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 06:19 PM

I won't pretend to have thought Feldman particularly special, but I did think Ubaldo was a terrible move from day one. You look at a guy's track record back a few years, and his was mostly bad/awful. He had one GREAT half season out of the prior 3 FULL seasons... the rest of the time he was less than mediocre at best.

It was virtually identical to the Millwood move years before... where 80% of the prior three seasons, he'd been average at best, and usually bad. I just can't get onboard with thinking an aging pitcher who hasn't been very good the prior three years is going to suddenly find consistency and success. For a veteran minimum / spring invite, fine... but not for significant dollars. You usually wind up throwing away a lot of games trying to "get value" hoping for a resurgence... Instead of moving on to see what someone else younger can accomplish. They arguably threw away an entire playoff run last year because Buck wanted to give the nice guy another shot to prove his worth. Disaster.

 

   Feldman was not anything mopre than a third or fourth starter, however, the Orioles were enamored with Ubaldo and overpaid him.

 

   I am sure that they looked at him being a number two starter in the rotation and it obviously has not worked out.

 

   The difference between Millwood and Ubaldo  is night and day. Millwood was a 35 year old pitcher who the Orioles acquired via trade.

 

    It may be difficult to remember, but while Ubaldo was overpaid, He was going to land a significant contract. At the time He threw 95 plus, was 30 years old and 

 

    as You stated He was coming off a brilliant second half of his walk season. The orioles thought they were getting a guy who was putting together a nice run into

 

    the prime of his career. They were obviously wrong, but Ubaldo was not the Doug Fister or Colby Lewis of that free agent class.

 

    I agree that it is past time to cut bait with Ubaldo, but I am not on the hook for paying him 13 million a year. It was a bad move to put him on the playoff roster over 

 

    Worley for the Wild Card game much less using him out of the pen in a tied game. IMO, that's a case of a manager outsmarting himself  rather than taking care of a nice guy.


Edited by russsnyder, 15 April 2017 - 06:53 PM.


#44 pitbull

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 09:20 PM

Big Dan has three big issues (which he lies to fans about every off-season, and doesn't do crap): (1) starting pitching, (2) leadoff hitter, (3) on/base guys.

#45 Far from home

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 11:11 AM

I didn't change any words. I bolded my thoughts if they differed from yours.

Get over yourself. Thanks.


It's not about me, it's about your inability to hit the quote button and follow basic forum etiquette, thanks.
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#46 Slidemaster

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 12:23 PM

It's not about me, it's about your inability to hit the quote button and follow basic forum etiquette, thanks.

Oh I see. I didn't put every individual player in the special little box before giving you my comments. How heinous.

Did you know it was your post? Did everyone else? Did I claim it was anything else? No? Oh good. Non-issue. If you don't want to acknowledge what I said that's fine, but don't give me some nonsense about how you won't respond because my forum etiquette isn't proper. Thanks.

Edited by Slidemaster, 16 April 2017 - 12:31 PM.

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#47 weird-O

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 07:16 AM

Feldman was one of those non-moves. The O's really needed another pitcher they could count on, and the O's let him go.

I don't think Feldman ever wanted to be in Baltimore, and I don't think he enjoyed his brief time here.

 

Here's why I think this may be true. In the winter, before the 2013 season, the O's tried to sign him. He chose to take less money to pitch for the Cubs. The Cubs were rebuilding then, and were slated to be a cellar dweller, and they were. They traded him to Baltimore that year. The next winter, the O's let him know they would be open to his returning. Instead, he went to Houston. Once again, he preferred to pitch for an "also ran" team, then to be in Baltimore. 


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#48 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 07:37 AM

I don't think Feldman ever wanted to be in Baltimore, and I don't think he enjoyed his brief time here.

 

Here's why I think this may be true. In the winter, before the 2013 season, the O's tried to sign him. He chose to take less money to pitch for the Cubs. The Cubs were rebuilding then, and were slated to be a cellar dweller, and they were. They traded him to Baltimore that year. The next winter, the O's let him know they would be open to his returning. Instead, he went to Houston. Once again, he preferred to pitch for an "also ran" team, then to be in Baltimore. 

 

It helped that Houston gave a journeyman 30mil.  They were high bidder by far.



#49 weird-O

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 08:01 AM

It helped that Houston gave a journeyman 30mil.  They were high bidder by far.

$10m/yr for a #3-4 was pretty much the going rate. It was actually a pretty good deal for Houston. If he had any interest in coming back to the O's, I'm sure they would have given him that kind of money. But probably would have been hesitant to go for a 3rd year. That's something that I think gets lost in the Ubaldo conversation. $12m/yr for a #3 (which is what he was, coming into that deal) was the going rate. The problem I had with that deal, was that DD seemed to think he was getting a #1 starter for $12M. All he really did was add a #3 starter to a rotation that was comprised of all #3,4,5 guys. 


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#50 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 08:20 AM

$10m/yr for a #3-4 was pretty much the going rate. It was actually a pretty good deal for Houston. If he had any interest in coming back to the O's, I'm sure they would have given him that kind of money. But probably would have been hesitant to go for a 3rd year. That's something that I think gets lost in the Ubaldo conversation. $12m/yr for a #3 (which is what he was, coming into that deal) was the going rate. The problem I had with that deal, was that DD seemed to think he was getting a #1 starter for $12M. All he really did was add a #3 starter to a rotation that was comprised of all #3,4,5 guys. 

 

I remember it as an overpay at the time.  It was the third year nobody else wanted to do.  But Houston did get a decent return.



#51 bleedingorangeandblack

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 08:30 AM

$10m/yr for a #3-4 was pretty much the going rate. It was actually a pretty good deal for Houston. If he had any interest in coming back to the O's, I'm sure they would have given him that kind of money. But probably would have been hesitant to go for a 3rd year. That's something that I think gets lost in the Ubaldo conversation. $12m/yr for a #3 (which is what he was, coming into that deal) was the going rate. The problem I had with that deal, was that DD seemed to think he was getting a #1 starter for $12M. All he really did was add a #3 starter to a rotation that was comprised of all #3,4,5 guys.

I think these articles go with your line of thinking

http://www.baltimore...0322-story.html

http://m.mlb.com/new...ubaldo-jimenez/

Edited by bleedingorangeandblack, 17 April 2017 - 08:33 AM.

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#52 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 08:39 AM

Feldman free agent profile in 2013. Projected at 2yr/17mil

https://www.mlbtrade...tt-feldman.html



#53 CROUSEMAN

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:13 AM

$10m/yr for a #3-4 was pretty much the going rate. It was actually a pretty good deal for Houston. If he had any interest in coming back to the O's, I'm sure they would have given him that kind of money. But probably would have been hesitant to go for a 3rd year. That's something that I think gets lost in the Ubaldo conversation. $12m/yr for a #3 (which is what he was, coming into that deal) was the going rate. The problem I had with that deal, was that DD seemed to think he was getting a #1 starter for $12M. All he really did was add a #3 starter to a rotation that was comprised of all #3,4,5 guys. 

 

Feldman actually pitched pretty well for Houston even if his record wasn't great at 18-20.  He had 3.64 ERA and 1.29WHIP in his 3 years there.  Easy hindsight, but he would of been a much better deal then UJ.  Plus no number 1 pick forfeited. 



#54 weird-O

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:46 AM

Feldman actually pitched pretty well for Houston even if his record wasn't great at 18-20.  He had 3.64 ERA and 1.29WHIP in his 3 years there.  Easy hindsight, but he would of been a much better deal then UJ.  Plus no number 1 pick forfeited. 

I agree


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#55 weird-O

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:48 AM

Feldman free agent profile in 2013. Projected at 2yr/17mil

https://www.mlbtrade...tt-feldman.html

That projection wasn't too far from the mark.  


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#56 ncbirdfan

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:58 AM

I think these articles go with your line of thinking

http://www.baltimore...0322-story.html

http://m.mlb.com/new...ubaldo-jimenez/

Knowing what we know now, it was a bad signing for the Orioles; but it was not a terrible signing at the time. If Jimenez would have even come close to fulfilling what the Orioles expected of him, it would have been a bargain by today's standards. This is why signing free agent pitchers to long-term contracts is very risky. The Orioles signed Jimenez not only for his innings-eating capabilities but also because he was durable. He was never considered a #1 pitcher. The best-case scenario was that he would be the a consistent #4 pitcher and be a constant relief to the bullpen. He was neither. He was an enigma. There were innings where he pitched like he belonged ion Cooperstown (albeit - few innings) and then come back the next inning like he was a different player in that uniform.



#57 weird-O

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 11:16 AM

You can't be afraid to sign quality pitchers, just because they may develop arm problems. It's very difficult to be the last team standing, when you live by that philosophy. You would have to go a long way into the past, to find a WS champion that didn't have a true top of the rotation, ace pitcher. The 2015 Royals had Cueto. That's the only team example of what might be a questionable #1 starter. 


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#58 ncbirdfan

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 11:34 AM

You can't be afraid to sign quality pitchers, just because they may develop arm problems. It's very difficult to be the last team standing, when you live by that philosophy. You would have to go a long way into the past, to find a WS champion that didn't have a true top of the rotation, ace pitcher. The 2015 Royals had Cueto. That's the only team example of what might be a questionable #1 starter. 

I understand your point, but the Tigers had three Cy-Young pitchers and the Orioles swept them. It's not impossible.

 

And IMO Tillman is an ace when healthy. It also bodes well that Bundy and Gausman seemed to have matured this year as well. And then there is this guy they got from the Phillies....



#59 weird-O

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 11:50 AM

I understand your point, but the Tigers had three Cy-Young pitchers and the Orioles swept them. It's not impossible.

 

And IMO Tillman is an ace when healthy. It also bodes well that Bundy and Gausman seemed to have matured this year as well. And then there is this guy they got from the Phillies....

Yes, "anything is possible", as the saying goes. But there's "possible" and then there's what is. And what is, is that you have to look long and hard to find a WS champion that didn't have a true #1, top of the rotation pitcher. Unless I missed someone, the lat 30 WS champions have had that guy. So, for the last 30 years, that "anything is possible" percentage is still sitting at zero. If Tillman, Bundy and Gausman all fill that top of the rotation role, then the O's are set. They don't need to sign a Davis Price type (I think everyone understands why I used him as an example).   


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

#60 bleedingorangeandblack

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 11:58 AM

Yes, "anything is possible", as the saying goes. But there's "possible" and then there's what is. And what is, is that you have to look long and hard to find a WS champion that didn't have a true #1, top of the rotation pitcher. Unless I missed someone, the lat 30 WS champions have had that guy. So, for the last 30 years, that "anything is possible" percentage is still sitting at zero. If Tillman, Bundy and Gausman all fill that top of the rotation role, then the O's are set. They don't need to sign a Davis Price type (I think everyone understands why I used him as an example).

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