hst2

Work has far more power over us than the government does, with little pay-off

62 posts in this topic

What types of manual labor have  *** not *** been replaced by automation in at least one instance?

 

Not even the oldest profession has escaped automation

Let me try it this way. Does the US have more automation now than in, say 1900? Is the average person better off now than in 1900? Pick a more recent date if you want, 1950, 1975.

 

Technological advancement does displace some workers but on the whole it has been a godsend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That you are your own owner is not so much sainted as it is basic human decency. That is the cornerstone of personal liberty. What you do with it and the results you get are up to you. How that is enslaving is a mystery.

To people grounded in equality of outcome, any variation such as a free market (not to mention human differences) elicits, equals unfairness or enslavement.  What they really want is what Churchill called the equal sharing of misery. (ie. socialism)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To people grounded in equality of outcome, any variation such as a free market (not to mention human differences) elicits, equals unfairness or enslavement.  What they really want is what Churchill called the equal sharing of misery. (ie. socialism)

Yeah, why should the 1% suffer and make it unanimous?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Healthcare is expensive because it's for profit.  When you have a profit motive in something that EVERYONE HAS to use that's just asking for high prices

How expensive do you think health care would be if there was no such thing as insurance?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How expensive do you think health care would be if there was no such thing as insurance?

Like in the rest of the western world where it is a fraction of our cost?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like in the rest of the western world where it is a fraction of our cost?

Insurance by the government is still insurance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How expensive do you think health care would be if there was no such thing as insurance?

I don't know... but since I never suggested such a thing I'm not sure how the question is relevant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Let me try it this way. Does the US have more automation now than in, say 1900? Is the average person better off now than in 1900? Pick a more recent date if you want, 1950, 1975.

 

Technological advancement does displace some workers but on the whole it has been a godsend.

 

That wasn't your argument.

 

I never thought you would be a goalpost mover. SMDH

 

The average worker in the us does no labor that would have been considered manual 100 years ago.

 

As of 2014 80%  perform in service industries  60% are in the professions, sales, education, government, or healthcare.

 

https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm

 

But to use a twist on your phrase:

 

Does the average person have a higher ratio of leisure time to actual manual labor as automation has increased?

 

As automation has increased, has the number of service industry workers as a % of the whole increased?

 

Follow the math and you will see that as automation increases, so does leisure time.

 

As automation increases, manual labor decreases.

 

There is an asymptotic decline in the necessity of human labor.

 

At some point it will actually become zero.  Human females will not actually have to gestate and birth progeny, artificial uteri will suffice.

 

Humans will only perform manual labor by choice.

 

The pace of advancement is exponential.

 

In less than 30 years, the creative arts will be the only thing humans do better than automated machines and machine intelligence.

 

There will be no need for traditional work.

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know... but since I never suggested such a thing I'm not sure how the question is relevant

Just asking a question related to why it is expensive. Not looking for a zero sum argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That wasn't your argument.

 

I never thought you would be a goalpost mover. SMDH

 

The average worker in the us does no labor that would have been considered manual 100 years ago.

 

As of 2014 80%  perform in service industries  60% are in the professions, sales, education, government, or healthcare.

 

https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm

 

But to use a twist on your phrase:

 

Does the average person have a higher ratio of leisure time to actual manual labor as automation has increased?

 

As automation has increased, has the number of service industry workers as a % of the whole increased?

 

Follow the math and you will see that as automation increases, so does leisure time.

 

As automation increases, manual labor decreases.

 

There is an asymptotic decline in the necessity of human labor.

 

At some point it will actually become zero.  Human females will not actually have to gestate and birth progeny, artificial uteri will suffice.

 

Humans will only perform manual labor by choice.

 

The pace of advancement is exponential.

 

In less than 30 years, the creative arts will be the only thing humans do better than automated machines and machine intelligence.

 

There will be no need for traditional work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Little payoff? My work pays off very well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"...we often speak of employment contracts as agreements between equals, as if we are living in Adam Smith’s eighteenth-century dream world.... But such characterizations...do not reflect reality; most workers agree to employment without any negotiation or even communication about their employer’s power or its limits. The exceptions to this rule are few and notable: top professional athletes, celebrity entertainers, superstar academics, and the (increasingly small) groups of workers who are able to bargain collectively....employment contracts create the illusion that workers and companies have arrived at a mutually satisfying agreement, the increasingly onerous restrictions placed on modern employees are often presented as “best practices” and “industry standards,” framing all sorts of behaviors and outcomes as things that ought to be intrinsically desired by workers themselves.

 

 

...The rise of staffing or “temp” agencies...undercuts the very idea of a direct relationship between worker and employer.... millions of workers now labor under subcontracting arrangements, which give employers even greater latitude to abuse employees.... much “temp” work is not even temporary. Employees sometimes work for years in a single workplace, even through promotions, without ever being granted official status as an employee. Similarly, “gig economy” platforms like Uber designate their workers as contractors rather than employees, a distinction that exempts the company from paying them minimum wage and overtime. Many “permatemps” and contractors perform the same work as employees, yet lack even the paltry protections and benefits awarded to full-time workers.

 

https://newrepublic.com/article/141663/united-states-work

 

Time to get rid of idea that work means personal liberty. It doesn't.

 

By all means quit your job.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Healthcare is expensive because it's for profit.  When you have a profit motive in something that EVERYONE HAS to use that's just asking for high prices

Sort of like income tax.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How are those not enslaved by <gasp!> work faring? Better than most? :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sort of like income tax.

 

Not like income tax at all -- government makes no profit -- by law it cannot, surplus actually is invested in Treasury Bills and becomes debt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Based on the assumption that you will continue to earn full-time pay and benefits.  How much happier, healthier and more productive would they be  when their pay is cut to 75%, along with their hours?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Based on the assumption that you will continue to earn full-time pay and benefits.  How much happier, healthier and more productive would they be  when their pay is cut to 75%, along with their hours?

 

 

If they can do the same amount of work in 6 hours that they used to in 8 -- shouldn't they be compensated the same?

 

Productivity vs. arbitrary hours

 

Fire for effect -- not to waste shells

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what your getting at. Hst2's slogan are just that. Mr. Livingston in the article was talking about scraping work altogether. You'd get a basic wage, food, rent, health care, and education. Automation is nowhere near being able to provide all of that and I'm just talking about the US. Go to less advance countries and it is just wishful thinking.

 

It is delusional to think that automation has done in manual labor. It has done in some of it but it has a long, long ways to go. Work is going to be around for a while.

 

I think that has been and is still being tried... it is called Communism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they can do the same amount of work in 6 hours that they used to in 8 -- shouldn't they be compensated the same?

 

Productivity vs. arbitrary hours

 

Hahahahah that is funny. REALLY?

 

Look..... the US productivity overall has skyrocketed. Has the paycheck? Flat as a pancake.

 

But I guess people are still compenstated the same....the same as the late 70's from what I have read.

 

Now at its face people maybe making more on paper. But when inflation, general rising costs of everything, reduction of benefits, elimination of REAL pensions etc. are figured in, according to some of the analysis people in general are making LESS THAN IN THE 70'S.

 

Out of curiotsity, I did some investigation. I took what I was making at Two Guys from Harrision in the 70's (minimum wage) plunked that into an inflation calculator. And guess what depending on what one you used...at this very moment one would have to make around 16 and hours. Now throw in all the things I mentioned above...well I hope you understand what I am getting at without detailing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, why should the 1% suffer and make it unanimous?

If you think 99% of people in this country are suffering, you're rather delusional.  Look around the world if you want to see real suffering.  Hundreds of millions would gladly exchange places with the people here that you consider "enslaved".  The entire premise that we can, or ever will, be able to do away with work, is ludicrous.  That we would even want to seems rather absurd as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you think 99% of people in this country are suffering, you're rather delusional.  Look around the world if you want to see real suffering.  Hundreds of millions would gladly exchange places with the people here that you consider "enslaved".  The entire premise that we can, or ever will, be able to do away with work, is ludicrous.  That we would even want to seems rather absurd as well.

The vast majority of Americans are in debt and working in jobs they detest with little chance for advancenpment.

 

That we aren't like Haiti is a small consolation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I think that has been and is still being tried... it is called Communism.

One can look at European countries with more Socialist policies, like Sweden, and people are quite a bit happier.

 

Although, for us, it isn't about being happy. It's about being ideologically rigid.

 

Americans must feel they need to be punished. The election of Trump is a pretty good indicator of that.

Edited by hst2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you think 99% of people in this country are suffering, you're rather delusional.  Look around the world if you want to see real suffering.  Hundreds of millions would gladly exchange places with the people here that you consider "enslaved".  The entire premise that we can, or ever will, be able to do away with work, is ludicrous.  That we would even want to seems rather absurd as well.

 

If anyone has ever spent a bit of time watching 'Star Trek' it seemed to tout the fact that in the Federation that everyones 'needs' were taken care. So in theory that means that no one has to work.Well work as we understand it. People were free to pursue their dreams, their art etc etc.

 

But interestingly if  you watched the show...people still worked. Some creatively or some were janitors (remember the scene from the first movie where Spock and Kirk are talking and there is a guy with a backpack vacuum cleaning the rug in the background? Was this this guys dream....to be the best damn rug cleaner in Star Fleet?

 

I think by nature people have a need to work.... not all... but most. There is a dig on the BC populace in that but I won't go there. ;):lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The vast majority of Americans are in debt and working in jobs they detest with little chance for advancenpment.

 

That we aren't like Haiti is a small consolation.

 

AMEN. I did for over 40 years.

I was watching MSNBC and they were talking about O'Reilly. They showed a clip of him mouthing off (and others) about the fact that these women where whiners and if they hated the job so much they should have quit.

Well maybe millionares can do that....but avg working joes can't. They have bills, kids, food and things that need a paycheck.

And of couse,,,, he gets a nice golden parachute for screwing up big time. I'm sorry in the real world most companies kick you out the window and with no parachute what so ever.

 

Hope the bxstard strokes out. Trumps second.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now